Will Pathfinder Online follow the sage advice of Gary Gygax?

[Moriquende]

I'm a Crowdforger Pioneer for the MMO on Kickstarter and am a backer of the Kickstarter demo, too, and so I'm literally invested (like many of you) in seeing this succeed. I will also point out that I haven't thoroughly read this forum, so apologies if this topic has already been discussed. While the game has a long way to go before even seeing the light of day, I'm already concerned about the power creep that Gary Gygax warned about in 1979:

Gary Gygax in the preface to the AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide wrote:

The danger of a mutable system is that you or your players will go too far in some undesirable direction and end up with a short-lived campaign. Participants will always be pushing for a game which allows them to become strong and powerful far too quickly. Each will attempt to take the game out of your hands and mold it to his or her own ends. To satisfy this natural desire is to issue a death warrant to a campaign, for it will either be a one-player affair or the players will desert en masse for something more challenging and equitable.

I've been playing DDO since the first year it launched and I've seen how the game has been ravaged by the uncontrollably desire for more powerful characters and equipment. It's natural, as Gary said, to desire to be become strong and powerful, but the game has devolved into a zergfest where players race from 1st to 25th level, again and again, soloing huge portions of the content with barely the slightest danger of failing a quest. The difference in power between those who grind 12 hours a day and those who are solid players but don't dedicate their lives to clicking has become huge, creating large imbalances which make PUGing an increasing rarity. Regardless, the quests, which were once challenging, have all become cake walks.

To combat the boredom and re-inject excitement into the game, I joined a permadeath guild. This worked for a year or two, and there was real excitement and challenge at all levels, but even here it has become difficult. As the developers crank up the power of new character classes and gear found adventuring, even the non-twink, PD characters who self-impose strict rules eliminating the use of practically all the easily acquired magic and buffs in the game end up zerging through virtually all of the low-level content. We're debating new rules to avoid the monotony, but it has becoming increasingly difficult to contort the game in order to avoid the grind.

While Pathfinder Online isn't even close to launching, I find myself sadly pessimistic that it will at some point suffer the same fate. I've read on this forum that many people don't want PD, and that's perfectly fine. (I'd be thrilled if it were an option, but that's another thread.) However, the natural desire Gygax warned about is very tough to resist, especially when there are short-term economic considerations. When participants cry for bigger and better goodies, faster leveling, easier quests and so forth, will the developers be able to resist their paying customers for the longer-term sake of the game?

My question to the good folks at Pathfinder Online is, have they considered this and, assuming they agree with the premise, what, if anything, are they planning on doing about it? If this has already been covered, please point me to where I can read about it.

[Meadhros]

Ooo, Ooo .....I just had a great idea.

PD can be an option or even a standard feature! Just make the usual cost of defeat of a PD character a ransom payable to the victor. If the victor actually chooses to kill someone permanently then they get a flag of the nastiest kind for a long period of time.

.....just thinking about it mandatory PD is just not an MMO winner :(

Although in a game like Pendragon, character death is expected and you then play a relative or associate of some kind and inherits the goods and a bit of the rep of your predecessor. Stops power creep dead and makes combat meaningful.

Having said that maybe PD should be an option at character creation. Maybe you get a higher stat block to start with, therefore higher skill progression or maybe you are extra resilience as you approach 0 health. Maybe if you have a PD character your next character can inherit everything in their bank (having been named in the will obviously!)

Either with or without the extra benefit(s) I am sure some people would get a kick out of playing a PD character. I enjoy seeing how long I can last in MMO's without getting killed, adds a bit more excitement... not the usual devil may care attitude towards character death.

[Meadhros]

Currently death means a respawn from a set point. Some items on your corpse may be lootable but you are able 'thread' some so they are not lootable.

If you run back you your corpse you can loot it yourself => lose nothing.

I understand this is the current state of GW thinking, I don't think it will be changing that much.

[Turin the Mad]

Yeah ... see, the whole "paying subscribers" concept requires not being goblin toe jam every few days/weeks/months. Let alone if some goobers pull the "HackMaster Online" shtick and 'n00b farm the general populace for their elite haxx0r toons before we add more stuff when we're not slurping pina coladas in the exotic massage parlor'.

There has to be real benefit to go with severe consequence.

[Meadhros]

Turin the Mad wrote:

There has to be real benefit to go with severe consequence.

If PD is an option only then there doesn't have to be a real benefit at all, some people will do it for kicks cos they like a challenge. A benefit would be nice.

[Turin the Mad]

Meadhros wrote:

Turin the Mad wrote:

There has to be real benefit to go with severe consequence.

If PD is an option only then there doesn't have to be a real benefit at all, some people will do it for kicks cos they like a challenge. A benefit would be nice.

Let's say your out in "kill 'em all" territory, and you get ganked for some random reason - they didn't like your pink emphasized color template in your wardrobe / they were 12 shots each deep into a drinking bender on Teampspeak / your Awesome Name from Golarion Lore Seemed Like 'Gankbait 101'. Your permadeath gives you what exactly for (x time frame)?

If you're WoW "Ironman" that's one thing ... but for most paying pukes there'd better be some Really Sweet Swag to go with Being the Bad Guy / getting kidney skewered.

On a tanget, there presently seems to be no real reason to be the Bad Guy mechanically speaking other than for the lulz. I can stay right where I am IRL and not pay dime one to PFO for that.

I'd love to be the cannibal hobbit Candlemere Cultist in PFO, sowing the seeds of Things Man Was Not Meant to Know throughout the Sheeple, crafting Kewl Toys for the Warfighters squabbling over insignificant territory ... but if I get ganked 'cause some Joybangers are "hexcamping for the lulz", what's the motivation to keep paying to play when I have to start over from scratch?

TL;DR: What reason is there to be the BBEG type in PFO when it's much easier / simpler to Be the Men / Women in White ? Developing the BBEG infrastructure in the PFO environment is presently set at being much more difficult with less ROI than it is to be The People Wearing White or At Least a Nice Shade of Neutral. If PFO wants the player base to generate the BBEGs, the BBEG wanna-bes are going to need some love too.

[Meadhros]

Well if is an option and it is an option, if you don't like then you can just not take it, no harm done.

If there is a benefit that makes playing a PD character 'better' in some mechanical way more people would be inclined to play one. Once again if you still don't like the idea no one would force you to do it.

I realise it's not for most people and I'm not really bothered, but having the option would be no skin off anyone's nose would it?

As for the BBEGs, I think they need a hug, we need them, don't make it too hard.

[Valkenr]

PD is only an option when your character takes 5 hours to work back to max from nothing.

PFO is designed to be a long term game, it will take the most efficient players alteast 2.5 years to master an archetype or field, and will probably take 3-4 years for the bulk of the population.

Perma Death will not be in the game.

The power gap between bottom and top will be very low, like 10-15%(pure speculation), as opposed to a 80,000% in a game like WoW.

The game is not about leveling, it is about adventuring, and simulating an economy. Advancing your character is casual, the majority of your concern will be what is happening in the world. If you want to do something faster, you will have to find a way to increase your efficiency in that activity.

Nothing that has been said by GW so far has lead me to believe they are going to be going down the path of constantly making the game easier. Their constant answer: "There are plenty of games out there that will hold your hand"

[Meadhros]

If the power gap were in the region of 10-15% then PD would not be an issue at all. I understand the power gap will be in the region of 4-500%.

Agreed that spending 2.5 years on a character which is then killed would be horrific. Perhaps a crafter or speculator who stayed in town all the time might enjoy some sort of skill training or other game mechanic benefit.

If it was an option someone would take it. If you took the PD option and got killed who you gunna go crying to? Your mumma? After they got their first full archetype tree maybe some people would want another challenge to show how grand they are?

I generally don't like holding hands.

[Turin the Mad]

Been playing EVE Online since January '04, so 'long term' is not the issue. ;)

Seeing if PFO is going to be worth hanging up that subscription of more than 11 years - 13 come PFO going 'live'? - is the curiosity from where I come.

Gawds I can't believe that I've been playing the same MMO since Jan 2004. Getting that subscription to shift to PFO is going to take some convincing. Right now I'm definitely straddling the fence. I like some of the concepts of PFO make NO mistake.

[Bluddwolf]

It is the very few who are willing to accept the death penalty that EvE Online has, so the idea that PD would attract a greater number of players is nil.

Gary Gygax may have been talking about PD, but I think he was more likely talking about leveling too fast or acquiring powerful magic too easily. Even if he was referring to PD, that was in the context of a free to play game. PD in a subscription based game would be too steep to be acceptable to more than 99% of the player base. It is hard enough to get even 10% of players to accept full player looting.

[Meadhros]

@Bluddwolf

Agreed and Agreed. However if there is an option someone will take it. Why deny them that option?

[AvenaOats]

Valkenr wrote:

PD is only an option when your character takes 5 hours to work back to max from nothing.

PFO is designed to be a long term game, it will take the most efficient players alteast 2.5 years to master an archetype or field, and will probably take 3-4 years for the bulk of the population.

Perma Death will not be in the game.

The power gap between bottom and top will be very low, like 10-15%(pure speculation), as opposed to a 80,000% in a game like WoW.

The game is not about leveling, it is about adventuring, and simulating an economy. Advancing your character is casual, the majority of your concern will be what is happening in the world. If you want to do something faster, you will have to find a way to increase your efficiency in that activity.

Nothing that has been said by GW so far has lead me to believe they are going to be going down the path of constantly making the game easier. Their constant answer: "There are plenty of games out there that will hold your hand"

I think Mark Kalmes may have mentioned biggest power difference will be hovering around x4/x5, in one of his vid/podcasts? Also I think he also mentioned that intial levelling up is faster power increase then slows down comparing the start and end of a max. power curve along levels. So again that and the fact the initial players will all be fairly comparable the most extreme differences in power won't be apparent for a long time, and even those "extreme" difference appear not to be very extreme.

-

I think the most extreme versions of death penalty in PFO are going to be: Losing all your best gear and whatever else you are carrying, assassination causes some additional penalties I believe (?) and obviously if your whole settlement is burned down!

-

Turin the Mad wrote:

Been playing EVE Online since January '04, so 'long term' is not the issue. ;)

Seeing if PFO is going to be worth hanging up that subscription of more than 11 years - 13 come PFO going 'live'? - is the curiosity from where I come.

Gawds I can't believe that I've been playing the same MMO since Jan 2004. Getting that subscription to shift to PFO is going to take some convincing. Right now I'm definitely straddling the fence. I like some of the concepts of PFO make NO mistake.

Always assumed an mmorpg that is played long-term is the ideal of both the developer and the player? EVE Online seems one of the few that has managed that: An "ongoing story".

[Tyncale]

PFO is focussed on player-interaction, PvP and territory control, it seems to me that it will not suffer from powercreep as much as PvE game would. It will suffer its own crop of problems, but individual characters getting too powerful for the content to stay challenging is probably not one of them.

[Hobs the Short]

Given the territorial disputes that are likely to crop up once people start staking claims to hexes, and given the sandbox nature of PFO wherein players create much of the content and risk, I doubt we have to worry nearly as much that characters will become too strong for the content. If this were primarily a PvE game, I might be concerned about devs being unable to provide enough challenge for seasoned vets. However, given the game's intended structure, your fellow players will likely be the thing that keeps you looking over your shoulder, regardless of how tough you think you are.

[Bluddwolf]

Meadhros wrote:

@Bluddwolf

Agreed and Agreed. However if there is an option someone will take it. Why deny them that option?

Every MMO has this option, any player can wipe their character whenever they choose.

[Being]

Given the shallow power curve promised the only element that might become an issue is the power curve of the gear.

Therefore if you need to argue for permadeath then let it be for the gear.

[Mbando]

Lot of Quenya/Valinorian in this thread. Anyway...

Moriquendi, what you're worried about is a legitimate concern in a themepark, PvE game. In those kind of games there is some kind of content (quests, end-game raids) and the satisfaction for the player is in "beating" successively higher levels of content. That naturally orients players towards both optimizing gear/builds for maximum power, and for the game designers to move towards short cuts so you can race through to level-cap get the end-game faster.

In a PvP sandbox game like PFO, you get satisfaction from accomplishing goals within a social context (cooperation and competition). The satisfaction won't be in getting a sword of uberness so you can get entry into Raid X.9.2; instead it will be from being part of a community that builds in increasing complexity and wealth until you have built the training facilities that would allow you to use a mutli-effect blade, which then you would have a context-laden reason to use: the crusade against the Dark Pact, their infernal allies, and to tear those bastards black walls and towers down.

Capisce?

[DarkOne the Drow]

Yep, that is the problem, trying to accommodate the WoW kiddies, with content that does not actually fit into the sandbox fantasy MMo, such as Auction Houses (now disguised as Markets). WoW kiddies all just want to race from place to place killing stuff, buy the best gear the easiest way without travel and the becoming the strongest the quickest.

[Areks]

@ Moriquende - Nice name!

[Moriquende]

@ Areks - Thanks!

There are some good points here. As Bluddwolf noticed, my post was NOT about PD. Rather, it was about the game devolving into a boring grind for power as the devs continue to give bigger and better goodies to the player without balancing the PvE content. I'm sure Gygax was not talking about PD (did that concept even exist in 1979?) but restraining the natural desire of players to demand out-of-balance power.

The fact that this is PvP and not PVE, as Tyncale points out, is interesting. If everyone's power is creeping together, and the power curve remains relatively flat as pointed about by Being, then perhaps balance is maintained. That being said, the demo I watched involved a party of adventurers attacking a goblin fortress of some kind, so that's obviously PvE.

@ Bluddwolf - You point out the obvious, that anyone can wipe a character in any MMO. My experience with PD in DDO, however, leads me to believe that "formalizing" the PD system would facilitate that type of play, and make it more attractive to a wider number of people. Can PD co-exist with non-PD in a PvP environment, however, is a good question.

I have to admit that I'm still fuzzy on the mechanics of PFO, but given the feedback I think I'll tamper my pessimism. It's just been tough watching the degradation of DDO and so I just hope it doesn't eventually happen here, too.

[clynx]

I think this discussion fits very much in line with the 'PvP or PvE' thread. At it's core, you go back to the developer's intent with the game.

Take Blizzard: It was their intent to deliver an MMORPG that was easy and accessible to 'casual' gamers. At the time of launch, that definition was relative to EQ. Make EQ easier. Remove the 'grind' from EQ. As the years went on, WoW WAS the relative comparison to WoW. So Blizzard made WoW easier. Made WoW more accessible, and removed the 'grind' from WoW. That will continue until that game's end of days because it is the driving ideology behind its development.

FromSoftware: It was their intent to make a game that wasn't the same casual crap you see on consoles these days. They wanted a challenging RPG. They wanted a game that didn't hold your hand. That was very tough, but never unfairly so. In 2009, they launched a game called Demon's Souls. It was a huge success. Turns out there's a big demographic of gamers that want a game experience like that.

You can also look to roguelike RPGs, where the intent is to simply see how far you can go. Once you die; start over and see if you can beat that record.

With MMOs specifically, themeparks have to create new contnet. That content is almost always 'better' in gear/stats to make it 'challenging' for the players. So in that regard, you're very much correct in saying that devs keep handing out better and better gear over time. It's the only way they inject 'things to do' in their game that players understand because the premise of those games is to level up to the most powerful state you can.

Sandbox MMOs work a little differently. You may still have that gear/item inflation as expansions come out; but the real interaction is between the players. When you have loss on death like you do in PFO, you'll quickly find that item/gear progression is not a liner progression over time. It has it's ups and downs. Just because you get strong items, doesn't mean you'll have them always and forever. They can be stolen or destroyed. This game has more capacity to TAKE from the player than it does to GIVE, and I think that's where you'll find your love for this game.

[Valkenr]

I would say good luck with a PD character, Ryan mentioned numerous times that this game will kill you often.

[Keovar]

A lot of these sorts of questions could be answered by reading the dev blog.

Power creep is much less of an issue when your primary challenge lies in dealing with other players. Themepark MMOs have fairly static content, and players learn quickly. People record and post guides. If you've ever played a themepark MMO before, you can probably even make relatively accurate guesses about the design of new ones before anyone has played them.

The iconic characters fighting goblins wasn't very indicative of the game. That was from the tech demo and there were no mechanics under the animations.

Permadeath is always an option, because there's always a delete button on the character select screen.

[Rafkin]

I don't think this will be a problem in PfO. Since most of your fighting may be pvp you won't out gear content and since training is done in real time the casuals won't fall behind a power curve.

[Vath Valorren]

I would not think any of these problems will appear in PFO, as game mechanics will keep things on an even keel.

I am more concerned the world being dominated over time by a massive zerg of non-roleplaying l337 kiddies that cannot be challenged by a smaller group of game world-authentic players (this happened in Shadowbane...)

[Neadenil Edam]

Vath Valorren wrote:

I am more concerned the world being dominated over time by a massive zerg of non-roleplaying l337 kiddies that cannot be challenged by a smaller group of game world-authentic players (this happened in Shadowbane...)

Might be an issue if you continue to train offline I suppose.

[Valkenr]

Zergs won't be seeing the light of day here, large scale combat will be done in an organized fashion, or be doomed to fail.

[url = http://www.khaiognos.org/wiki/index.php?title=You%27re_in_the_Army_Now!#Helter_Skelter]Blog link.[/url]

[LazarX]

Gary Gygax was sage advice in an age before MMORGS and for that matter before the Internet, and he was pretty much still in the mindset that he was the only authority on gaming.

In all those factors, the world has moved on since then.

What you may forget is that he absolutely HATED 3.X, and probably would not have that much fond to say about Pathfinder either.

[Neadenil Edam]

LazarX wrote:

Gary Gygax was sage advice in an age before MMORGS and for that matter before the Internet, and he was pretty much still in the mindset that he was the only authority on gaming.

In all those factors, the world has moved on since then.

What you may forget is that he absolutely HATED 3.X, and probably would not have that much fond to say about Pathfinder either.

THACO rulez :D

[The Shameless One]

Bad ideas in D&D: Vorpal swords, with a critical hit you chop off the head of your enemy resulting in instant death.

I don't think that this overpowered type of weapon should exist at all and it was a very bad idea to introduce it in the first place.

[IronVanguard]

It's not D&D without a Vorpal blade.

[Nihimon]

@Moriquende, Settlements will face Perma-Death. That should provide everything you're after.

[MicMan]

The Shameless One wrote:

Bad ideas in D&D: Vorpal Swords...

Worse ideas: removing Vorpal Swords.

D&D IS Vorpal Swords in one way or the other. Removing these aspects is crippling the spirit of the game and results in 4e, a fine game, just not D&D.

Same with MMOs. Removing the risk from MMOs resulted in fine games for the masses, just tha these were no longer the MMOs that the fans of old came to love. Many got over that fact and some never did (I surely rank among the latter).

So PFO will follow the advice of GG in some way and not do so in another way.

You can become extremely powerful in PFO but this power does NOT depend on your gear and in game skills but rather on your out game skills which determine wether you will be King/Chancellor of your country, the hand that launches a thousand players to drive your enemies before them and take their.. um, you get the idea.

[LazarX]

MicMan wrote:

The Shameless One wrote:

Bad ideas in D&D: Vorpal Swords...

Worse ideas: removing Vorpal Swords.

D&D IS Vorpal Swords in one way or the other. Removing these aspects is crippling the spirit of the game and results in 4e, a fine game, just not D&D.

I guess we should tell all those network players and Paizo how much badwrongfun they've been engaged in. I've been playing the game since 1980, and I've never seen those things used once.

Possibly because what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and few players enjoy it when it's THEIR PC that gets beheaded in one shot.

[Imbicatus]

LazarX wrote:

Possibly because what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and few players enjoy it when it's THEIR PC that gets beheaded in one shot.

No worries, I have this Head of Vecna right here. If you place it on your neck stump (after the unfortunate loss of your own head), it will give you all of the awesome arcane might of Vecna! I'd be willing to sell it you for the paltry sum of 666 platinum pieces. Sorry, I'm quite firm in the number of pieces, it is a charm to keep Vecna from discovering who the current owner of the head is, you see.

[John Woodford]

And the best part is, with the Head of Vecna you can one-shot attacking gazebos!

[MicMan]

LazarX wrote:

I've been playing the game since 1980, and I've never seen those things used once.

The matter is choice and I much prefer a game with cool, iconic and powerful items that are over the top in such a way that they only come into the game now and then, to a game where those items do not exist because they aren't balanced in a way that a +3 Dagger is balanced.

[LazarX]

MicMan wrote:

LazarX wrote:

I've been playing the game since 1980, and I've never seen those things used once.

The matter is choice and I much prefer a game with cool, iconic and powerful items that are over the top in such a way that they only come into the game now and then, to a game where those items do not exist because they aren't balanced in a way that a +3 Dagger is balanced.

Nice as those things might be to see one in a blue moon, it doesn't mean that D+D is not "D+D" because one never comes up in a given campaign. It just means that one campaign might have them, and another does not.

[Neadenil Edam]

The Shameless One wrote:

Bad ideas in D&D: Vorpal swords, with a critical hit you chop off the head of your enemy resulting in instant death.

I don't think that this overpowered type of weapon should exist at all and it was a very bad idea to introduce it in the first place.

My level 15 paladin with 500 damage on a charging lance crit could kind of do that anyway for most critters. 500+ damage and a massive damage save messes up most things :D

Anyone that has played high level campaigns will have fought Vorpal Weapons regularly as they are a standard fare for summoned Balors in high level games.

They are expensive and are actually rather limited as the creatures must have a single head (no vorpal kills on gelatinous cubes or hydras), cannot be mindless undead and more importantly you have to hit (only a 20 auto hits) and confirm that crit (a 20 does not autoconfirm).

[Imbicatus]

Neadenil Edam wrote:

The Shameless One wrote:

Bad ideas in D&D: Vorpal swords, with a critical hit you chop off the head of your enemy resulting in instant death.

I don't think that this overpowered type of weapon should exist at all and it was a very bad idea to introduce it in the first place.

My level 15 paladin with 500 damage on a charging lance crit could kind of do that anyway for most critters. 500+ damage and a massive damage save messes up most things :

That's why spirited charge has been banned in most games I have played in :P

[Neadenil Edam]

Imbicatus wrote:

Neadenil Edam wrote:

The Shameless One wrote:

Bad ideas in D&D: Vorpal swords, with a critical hit you chop off the head of your enemy resulting in instant death.

I don't think that this overpowered type of weapon should exist at all and it was a very bad idea to introduce it in the first place.

My level 15 paladin with 500 damage on a charging lance crit could kind of do that anyway for most critters. 500+ damage and a massive damage save messes up most things :

That's why spirited charge has been banned in most games I have played in :P

lol true ... it was Ok in living greyhawk 3.5 though. It had Shock Trooper as well, and a unicorn mount :D

Actually vorpal swords and spirited charge are pretty mild compare to stuff from the splat books.

I personally think the record for most ridiculously overpowered must go to Planar Shepherd.

[Pax Veritas]

To the OP: Dear god I hope so. MMMOs are a dime-a-dozen, but Pathfinder RPG should be a cut above the rest, just like all the quality shown in their products and the gentle care they show by holding up the traditions and history of the game. If Pathfinder RPG can achieve what is best at tabletop within an MMO, it will be successful. You've selected a great gygaxian quote to guide PAIZO's gentle wisdom. Thanks.

[Being]

I'm unsure of Mr. Gygax's advice regarding sage, but his use of basil was unparallelled.

[Bluddwolf]

Being wrote:

I'm unsure of Mr. Gygax's advice regarding sage, but his use of basil was unparallelled.

Perhaps only Thyme will tell?

[Vath Valorren]

Bluddwolf wrote:

Being wrote:

I'm unsure of Mr. Gygax's advice regarding sage, but his use of basil was unparallelled.

Perhaps only Thyme will tell?

I like where this is going!

More on topic, vorpal swords a. la. Instant death, is unlikely in an MMO

Actually, the very bottom-line-main-point of an MMO will keep Gary Gygax' fears from coming true. Having so many people, so many customers, will prevent the "i-win" button.

[Being]

Given the flat power-curve avowed in the design it seems very likely that GW will resist the 'Monty Haul' mentality early DMs were warned against.

[Imbicatus]

Being wrote:

Given the flat power-curve avowed in the design it seems very likely that GW will resist the 'Monty Haul' mentality early DMs were warned against.

I once played in a game with a DM who created a teamster guild called "Monty's Haulers". We hired them to cart back the loot from a dungeon and the bastards stole two carts of the treasure we had rightfully slain all those monsters for. The rest of that campaign was us tracking down our two haulers.

[Danneth Sky]

I'd just like to add that there's only one master of "Sage Advice," and that man is Ed Greenwood!

[Jiminy]

If you don't listen to the wise words of Gygax, you will be left out in the cold and end up a little chilli.