Presenting your Holy Symbol?

[lastblacknight]

A question for the powers-that-be.

Parts of this question have been touched on in other threads but the threads got side-tracked, so please take the time to read this whole post before commenting (and please comment if you have something valuable to add).

The Question: How does a cleric ‘present ‘his/her holy symbol to channel?

Considerations: (there are three – I am not interested in a discussion about Area of Effect vs. Line of Sight – it’s irrelevant and covered quite simply in the rules).

• A Channel is an; Su: (supernatural ability) that cannot be dispelled, is not subject to SR (spell resistance) is effected by Anitmagic and does not provoke an AoO (attack of opportunity) when used.
• A standard action is required to perform a channel (usually)
• A Cleric must be able to present a holy symbol to use this ability

Now a supernatural ability isn't a spell-like ability, it doesn't require a gesture or verbal component to begin working (think; Aura, or Flight). In some cases it does require a mental command to start or maintain an effect and this can be a standard, swift or free action (for us though it’s a standard action).

Now, to the word Present, some posts have suggested that a holy symbol must be held in the hand and strongly presented to the evil to be cleasened by the holy power of the channel – this is incorrect. A Holy Symbol need only be strongly presented to a vampire or similar creature. For the normal use of a channel, a cleric need only present his/her symbol (a subtle and distinct difference). Now consider what is required to hide a holy symbol – if it’s worn on a chain on the neck, simply putting it underneath your clothes allows the symbol to be hidden. So wearing the symbol of your faith on the outside of your clothes (clear for all to see) is the opposite – as it’s worn out - it is presented.

Therefore, if a cleric was paralysed (and not effected mentally) there is no reason why he/she couldn't channel, provided she had a standard action to do so. (Similar to how a Hag might Evil Eye someone even if she is bound).

Let the games begin….

[MechE_]

I've always interpreted "A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability" as a requirement of a free hand with which to "present" her holy symbol. Otherwise, it would say "the Cleric must wear her holy symbol in a visible location."

Present - v. pre·sent·ed, pre·sent·ing, pre·sents
1 a. To introduce, especially with formal ceremony.
1 b. To introduce (a young woman) to society with conventional ceremony.
2. To bring before the public: present a play.
3 a. To make a gift or award of.
3 b. To make a gift to.
4 a. To offer for observation, examination, or consideration; show or display.
Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/presented (Emphasis, mine.)

Based on this, I've always went with clerics using a light shield to keep their hand free to properly present the holy symbol when channeling energy. Additionally, there is a feat (called Create Reliquary Arms and Shields) that allows shields, weapons, or armors to function as holy symbols, which for 250 gp would eliminate the requirement of keeping a free hand. As a DM though, I still would not allow a player to utilize a channel energy while paralyzed, due to the wording of the definition given above.

There's my 2 cp on the discussion.

[Christopher Rowe]

There's some interesting information to add to this debate in the Channel Foci section of the Adventurer's Armory.

Channel Foci are garments or other objects (notably weapons and shields) that can augment or focus channeled energy, but for the purposes of this discussion, it's important to note that they also act as holy symbols.

The important sentence is this: "The cleric can use the focus as a holy symbol...though if it is a worn item rather than a held item she must touch the item with a free hand."

["Devil's Advocate"]

The Devs, somewhere, have clarified this. A Cleric does not need to grab the holy symbol, or in fact need a free hand to present it (though I like that imagry myself). They do need to have it out and ready (like the op said, outside their armor and around their neck), but it does require some sort of physical action, (for example reaching their macehand up to touch it for a second, holding it, whatever), so a cleric can not Channel while paralyzed, even if they have a Standard Action, unless they happen to have it out. Some other classes do not have this issue, for example Oracles that can Channel do not require a Divine Focus, and so can do so while Paralyzed.

There are a few other options, like the Birthmarked Trait, Holy Symbol tattooes, and gear worn gear that has a Holy Symbol on it that do count (assuming the Holy Symbol is out and visible).

[lastblacknight]

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

....(for example reaching their macehand up to touch it for a second, holding it, whatever), so a cleric can not Channel while paralyzed, even if they have a Standard Action, unless they happen to have it out. Some other classes do not have this issue, for example Oracles that can Channel do not require a Divine Focus, and so can do so while Paralyzed.....

Wonderful, do you have a link or reference for me?

[blackbloodtroll]

There is the Holy Symbol Tattoo.

[Ciaran Barnes]

I'm probably reading a bit into it, but what it means to me is that when a cleric uses the ability it is as abvious as casting a spell. It can't be combined with a Stealth check ("Nah I was just stretching to itch my shoulder") to disguise that you are using an special ability. It probably takes a Perception DC 0 to notice.

[lastblacknight]

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

I'm probably reading a bit into it, but what it means to me is that when a cleric uses the ability it is as obvious as casting a spell. It can't be combined with a Stealth check ("Nah I was just stretching to itch my shoulder") to disguise that you are using an special ability. It probably takes a Perception DC 0 to notice.

There seems to be some confusion on the boards between presented and strongly presented. One is passive the other active..

In the example above, the PC is paralysed, and under normal conditions the PC would be able to take mental actions only, which would include using mental supernatural abilities (not spell-like abilities, which mimic spellcasting and require somatic, verbal or material components).

I agree with you that in some cases some effect would be visible (not and Aura for example, but Flight certainly).

I have some conflicting visuals between the strongly held symbol at a vampire and the cleric channelling from the symbol mid battle as a mace swings from hand to the shield held in the other.

I guess we just wait for clarification...

[The Diplomat]

Hero's Handbook p48 wrote:

If you're a cleric, you must hold your holy symbol to use your channel energy ability.

See this post for a solution if you want to keep a free hand. There is also the Cassock of the Clergy (UE p214) for a less permanent, though more expensive, answer.

[BillyGoat]

lastblacknight wrote:

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

I'm probably reading a bit into it, but what it means to me is that when a cleric uses the ability it is as obvious as casting a spell. It can't be combined with a Stealth check ("Nah I was just stretching to itch my shoulder") to disguise that you are using an special ability. It probably takes a Perception DC 0 to notice.

There seems to be some confusion on the boards between presented and strongly presented. One is passive the other active..

By virtue of them being the same verb, one modified by an adverb, I have to disagree with you. They are both active verbs, describing an action taken. One is merely more forceful than the other.

What that means, rules-wise, seems to still be up for debate, since no one has provided a clear simple link. As mentioned, the Adventurer's Armory booklet has the clothing/shields that can be used to channel & that book requires an act of drawing attention to the symbol.

I do not know if that was ever carried over to a general rule anywhere, but it makes sense and is logically consistent with the wording of Channel Energy. "To present" is not the same as "to have visible".

[VRMH]

BillyGoat wrote:

"To present" is not the same as "to have visible".

Indeed not, but - short of being invisible - could you give an example where an item is "presented" without being held out for all to see?

[Democratus]

If we are getting precise with the language, a cleric is not required to present her holy symbol to Channel Energy.

Per raw: "A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol"

So you must merely be able to present it. You don't actually have to present it. Per RAW.

[The Human Diversion]

Sorry to necro this thread, but it seems relevant since the question just came up again.

In addition to what's stated here, I have a question of, "What constitutes a holy symbol?"

Some say there is a feat required to have a holy symbol be part of armor or clothing, yet you can have a 1 copper piece wooden holy symbol, does that mean gluing the wooden symbol on your gauntlet wouldn't count?

The wording on "presented" is still somewhat vague - it almost implies that someone blind wouldn't be affected by a cleric's channel energy, but we know that not to be the case, so then who is the cleric presenting to? His/her deity? If that's the case, where do said deities draw the line? What's "good enough" for them?

[downlobot]

The craft reliquary arms and armor feat does more than just make your weapon/shield/armor a holy symbol. It's not worth the feat (imo) unless you really cant find one in an undead heavy game. But the reliquary does have a nice jive with consecrate/desecrate.

[blackbloodtroll]

Weaving your Holy Symbol into your chest hair?

[The Human Diversion]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Weaving your Holy Symbol into your chest hair?

Not sure Calistria would like that, but other deities might.

[blackbloodtroll]

The Human Diversion wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Weaving your Holy Symbol into your chest hair?

Not sure Calistria would like that, but other deities might.

Why not?

That actually sounds right up her alley.

[LazarX]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Weaving your Holy Symbol into your chest hair?

That only works if your Cleric's name is Putin.

[prong999]

I played a game where a paladin of Iomedae had the birthmark trait, and it was on his forehead.

I tried to lobby that he had to crane his neck forward to cast spells (ie: present his divine focus), and that opponents with vorpal weapons should get a bonus to attack him, but the DM didn't go for it.

[The Human Diversion]

prong999 wrote:

I played a game where a paladin of Iomedae had the birthmark trait, and it was on his forehead.

I tried to lobby that he had to crane his neck forward to cast spells (ie: present his divine focus), and that opponents with vorpal weapons should get a bonus to attack him, but the DM didn't go for it.

That's pretty amusing, but I think you only have to present your holy symbol to channel, not cast. A divine focus (like spell material components) merely have to be on your person.

[The Human Diversion]

Anyway, back on track, could you take one or more 1 copper piece wooden holy symbols and glue them all over your armor/weapon/shield/etc and have that be a valid "presenting" of your holy symbol?

[WeirdoC]

I would go with a yes on that, Diversion. Ultimately, the holy symbol really is just that--a symbol. I'd even go so far as to say you could probably get the clergy to paint or carve the symbol directly on your shield, gauntlet, tunic, etc. for the same 1 gp that you would be paying them to carve or paint it on that piece of wood. Either way--painted on or glued on--having your holy symbol on your gauntlet allows you to present it just as well as hanging it around your neck.

[James Risner]

I'm good with holding it out or point to it so long as it is in clear view to your targets.

[Seadeatea]

I have a loosely related question. Since a cleric must be able to present their holy symbol to channel energy, what if a caster changed it's appearance? Would it no longer work as them presenting their holy symbol?
Honestly, I am thinking of the ever notorious Prestidigitation. I know it can't interrupt a caster but if you were to change the shape of say an ankh into a rough sphere it wouldn't directly be affecting their cast right? But it would no longer be the right shape to represent their faith. Or, even if it were a different shape, would it still work as it is still the Same object?

[Shamus Woodgear]

Two holy symbol tattoos, two cheeks and grass skirts.

[Rho Mangelon]

If you get the symbol engraved on your gauntlets, you would be able to very strongly present you symbol. As in punch them in the face with it. Now that is imagery I can support.

[DominusMegadeus]

Rho Mangelon wrote:

If you get the symbol engraved on your gauntlets, you would be able to very strongly present you symbol. As in punch them in the face with it. Now that is imagery I can support.

I think this is why they made Warpriest.

"What if you could punch them... with faith."

"My god, we need this by GenCon."

[Starglim]

Seadeatea wrote:

I have a loosely related question. Since a cleric must be able to present their holy symbol to channel energy, what if a caster changed it's appearance? Would it no longer work as them presenting their holy symbol?

Honestly, I am thinking of the ever notorious Prestidigitation. I know it can't interrupt a caster but if you were to change the shape of say an ankh into a rough sphere it wouldn't directly be affecting their cast right? But it would no longer be the right shape to represent their faith. Or, even if it were a different shape, would it still work as it is still the Same object?

This is not one of the listed abilities of prestidigitation. It could perhaps make some sort of blobby coating, but since materials made by prestidigitation can't count as a spell component, I doubt they can modify the effect of a spell component either.

If a holy symbol was reshaped by something other than a 0-level spell, that certainly might prevent it functioning.