Are there feats that just are not worth taking? There seems 2 b a lot of feats to choose from however, it seems the same ones are always chooses.
Say as a fighter you always take the same 5ones feats.... what r they?
same for rogue? Same for wizard? Same for cleric?
The reason 4 this question is I am starting a game with people that have never played rpg b4. So just trying to get the feat list down to something manageable 4 them.
Are there feats that just are not worth taking?
Yes, and the list would be too exhaustive to realistically type out.
I concur with what mplindustries says.
Simply put, a lot of the things that are on the list aren't exactly the best. Many of them are situational, or are VERY gimmicky, more for a roleplaying flavor build instead of an optimization build.
Are there feats that just are not worth taking?Yes, and the list would be too exhaustive to realistically type out.
So maybe 4 or 5 feats that r worth it?
So maybe 4 or 5 feats that r worth it?Are there feats that just are not worth taking?Yes, and the list would be too exhaustive to realistically type out.
I would say there's good number more feats than 4 or 5 that are worth it, but it also depends on what kind of build you are aiming for. Naturally a barbarian is not going to have the exact same feats that they want compared to let us say, a wizard.
EDIT: Despite this, there are also some playstyles within the classes that are vastly different. For instance, a ranger that is based more for mounted combat vs. one that is more Aragorn style combat, often referred to as the switch hitter.
So maybe 4 or 5 feats that r worth it?Are there feats that just are not worth taking?Yes, and the list would be too exhaustive to realistically type out.
No, there are dozens of good feats. But there are hundreds of feats to choose from. The majority suck, but there are so many feats overall, there're still lots of good ones.
Are there feats that just are not worth taking? There seems 2 b a lot of feats to choose from however, it seems the same ones are always chooses.
Say as a fighter you always take the same 5ones feats.... what r they?
same for rogue? Same for wizard? Same for cleric?The reason 4 this question is I am starting a game with people that have never played rpg b4. So just trying to get the feat list down to something manageable 4 them.
Here is a list of class guides. They usually have suggestions on which feats to take.
The OP is asking for a lisst of 4 or 5 feat that seem best fot each class, or at least maybe each section; arcane, divine, combat, face.
He wantsw a simple list to point his new players, which he stated have never played.
^ YES that is what I was asking for. Thanks Nevan!
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Here's my list. It's probably not the best list, but it's a decent start. The guides have more specific information in them about good feats for specific classes or character styles.
General Combat:
Power Attack (especially with a two-handed weapon)
Weapon Finesse (if you want dex)
Dervish Dance (if you want lots of dex)
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization (for fighters)
Armour Proficiency (for classes like clerics that don't get heavy armour)
Mounted Combat (and Ride-by-Attack and Spirited Charge)
Improved Critical
Two-Weapon Fighting (considered a weaker style, but if you want to TWF you need it)
Archery:
Precise Shot (which usually requires Point Blank Shot)
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Clustered Shots
Snap Shot
Casting:
Spell Focus (depending on your spells)
Spell Penetration (at higher levels, with SR)
Selective Channeling (so your cleric doesn't heal the enemy)
Improved Familiar
Improved Share Spells
Metamagic - I tend to like Dazing, Persistent, Extend, and Empower
Spell Perfection
Natural Spell and Natural Speech (for the Druid)
Skill Feats:
Skill Focus
Persuasive (Diplomacy and Intimidate)
Self-Sufficient (Heal and Survival)
Deceitful (Bluff and Disguise)
Alertness (Perception and Sense Motive)
Breadth of Experience (Knowledge and Profession)
General Survival:
Dodge
Iron Will
Great Fortitude
Toughness
Other:
Boon Companion: If you've got an animal companion and an effective druid level below your character level.
Many class features have an "Extra Feature" feat giving you either another choice of feature (for things like rogue talents or rage powers) or more uses per day (for bardic performance, rage, channel). Since these features are very useful, these feats are often good to take.
Elephant Stomp isn't useless it is just a Niche Feat. Monkey Lunge is useless.
That said for a Human I always see if my build can fit in and use the following without much suffering. Since I tend to play Martials & such...:
- Toughness
- Improved Initiative
- Fast Learner
- Power Attack
- Deadly Aim
Elephant Stomp I think wins the competition for being literally useless
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/elephant-stomp-combat
While not totally useless, Sharp Senses is near the top of my list for pointless feats.
It grants someone with the Keen Senses racial ability a +2 on Perception, and that's it.
You could instead take Skill Focus: Perception, which has no prerequisites, and isn't (possibly) turned off when you polymorph, which will grant a +3 bonus, that will eventually increase to a +6.
Or you could take Alertness, which grants a +2 on Perception AND Sense Motive, has no prerequisites, and eventually increases to a +4 bonus to both.
Honestly, other than for character who have Skill Focus AND Alertness and STILL want more Perception (why?) what's the point of the feat? It was published after Skill Focus and Alertness, and is worse in ever conceivable way.
Skill Feats:
Skill Focus
Persuasive (Diplomacy and Intimidate)
Self-Sufficient (Heal and Survival)
Deceitful (Bluff and Disguise)
Alertness (Perception and Sense Motive)
Breadth of Experience (Knowledge and Profession)
Skill Focus can be ok in the right build on the right skill, but every +2 to two skills feat is squarely on the "bad feat" list, sorry.
Skill Focus can be ok in the right build on the right skill, but every +2 to two skills feat is squarely on the "bad feat" list, sorry.Skill Feats:
Skill Focus
Persuasive (Diplomacy and Intimidate)
Self-Sufficient (Heal and Survival)
Deceitful (Bluff and Disguise)
Alertness (Perception and Sense Motive)
Breadth of Experience (Knowledge and Profession)
They aren't that awful since they do eventually give +4. However I think you're better off with skill focus (for the +6). Usually I only want one of the two in any of the combinations and I would rather have the bigger number.
Elephant Stomp on a Mount or Animal Companion. Just because it sucks for a PC it doesn't mean it it useless. Heck, I have seen an Overrun Monk that can be absolutely brutal when he is fighting enemies he can Overrun.
And one must remember not all campaigns have PCs fight the Higher CMD foes. Look at a Lord of the Rings based campaign.
I'd love to see anyone's lists of useful feats. I would think a pdf/printout of only those feats that are worthwhile and not totally niche would be a good playing aid.
Elephant Stomp on a Wolf.
Move to get closer then Overrun for the chance to bite then use the Bite to trip them. It allows for what is effectively a charge but with more maneuverability and no AC penalty.
Attacking a foe around a corner or when you don't want the AC Penalty.
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I also forgot Improved Initiative. That's solid for a lot of different characters.
They aren't that awful since they do eventually give +4. However I think you're better off with skill focus (for the +6). Usually I only want one of the two in any of the combinations and I would rather have the bigger number.Skill Focus can be ok in the right build on the right skill, but every +2 to two skills feat is squarely on the "bad feat" list, sorry.Skill Feats:
Skill Focus
Persuasive (Diplomacy and Intimidate)
Self-Sufficient (Heal and Survival)
Deceitful (Bluff and Disguise)
Alertness (Perception and Sense Motive)
Breadth of Experience (Knowledge and Profession)
Really depends. If you only want one of the skills you'll generally get more out of Skill Focus but if you legitimately use both skills and don't want to take Skill Focus for each you might want the package. My Inquisitor would have got better mileage out of either Persuasive or Alertness than any single Skill Focus, since getting +4 to two skills he used frequently was better than getting +6 to one skill.
Also, Breadth of Experience lets you make Knowledge and Profession checks untrained, which could be useful.
To the OP.
If it's a bunch of newbie players, just use the CRB. Block the rest of it, APG, UM, UC etc. Too many options is bewildering to new players. I'd also advise NOT to advance their starting levels. Use the KISS principle.
Of those.
Imp. Initiative
Dodge
Iron Will
Weapon Focus
Power Attack
TWF
Weapon Finesse
Point Blank Shot
One of those work for everyone.
I'd also advise NOT to advance their starting levels.
Not advancing can cease being fun after awhile. I'd suggest holding off on advancing until it seems like everyone has a good handle on the rules both in general and in regard to their character, then let them level up, repeating at each level. Start at level 1 and build slowly up from there, only adding levels when you're certain they can handle more complexity. Stopping completely at some level, say 6th or 12th, is always an option to avoid the growing complexity of high level play.
My bad.
What I'd meant was don't start them at lvl 3 or 4... I see people do that too much, especially when newbies are involved. The game is complicated to start with. Some folks, the rule loving types who seem to end up as GMs, sometimes think, "I'll start you off at level 3 so you can do all this cool stuff", without stopping to realize that with newbies basic stuff like Inititive and simple Stat Bonuses are totally New Concepts.
All Virgins to PNP games should be started at level 1. IMHO.
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To the OP.
If it's a bunch of newbie players, just use the CRB. Block the rest of it, APG, UM, UC etc. Too many options is bewildering to new players. I'd also advise NOT to advance their starting levels. Use the KISS principle.
Of those.
Imp. Initiative
Dodge
Iron Will
Weapon Focus
Power Attack
TWF
Weapon Finesse
Point Blank ShotOne of those work for everyone.
Yeah, that's the short list for level 1. Keep in mind though that you're not always just picking one feat - a 1st level human fighter gets three feats. If you're an archer Precise Shot should be your next feat after Point Blank Shot.
I'd also advise starting at level 1, and allowing rebuilding if they realize when they become more comfortable with the rules that they don't like their early feat choices.
I tend to try and arrange some 1-on-1 game time with new players and run them through a simple Gladiatorial style encounter using the "Big 4" Pre-Gens. This gives them a feel for the 4 major Class Archetypes and a Variety of Fighting Styles.
Heck, Now that I have access to the NPC Gallery I might just build a small dungeon for each and run the player through whatever Class they want to try.
You mentioned Rogue in the original post.
A useful idea is to use the feat "Two Weapon Fighting" to get an extra attack. I think this is fairly common.
That extra attack also gets the Rogue's sneak attack damage (provided the Rogue is Flanking or some other reason to get Sneak Attack.
Ideally, this then doubles the Sneak Attacks the rogue can make.
Take care, it can be difficult to maneuver, Two Weapon Fighting needs a Full-Round action so moving weakens you.
Could Elephant Stomp be, in principle, useful in something like the following situation:
It is initially tactically sound to overrun the target, so you do so.
Other characters had readied actions which are triggered by your overrun.
Due to those readied actions being triggered, the battle changes such that it is tactically preferable to deal unarmed/natural damage than knock the target prone.
For example, you want to capture Bob and kill Alice. You put killing Alice as the first priority.
Unbeknownst to you, Alice readies a buff to cast on Bob if an enemy gets in melee range of Bob.
You try to overrun Bob to get nearer to Alice (so you can hurt her in later turns).
This triggers Alice's readied buff, and now Bob is so dangerous that capturing him is no longer viable and killing him becomes the new top priority.
It might never come up in any game ever, but in principle Elephant Stomp could confer a tactical advantage.
Well, the buff might make him immune to going prone, like... polymorph him into a powerful ooze or something (surely ooze's can't be knocked prone, right?)
You might be a monk, so unarmed strike might not be so bad.
Elephant Stomp still seems fairly weak though.
** spoiler omitted **
So, your argument for why Elephant Stomp isn't utterly useless is that there may be a situation that comes up maybe ONCE ever during your adventuring career, in which completing a started Overrun becomes untenable and obviously so to your character (not to the player)?
That to me looks like the very definition of a useless feat. Stuff like this was what Skill Tricks were useful for. Feats should be things that get used regularly, to reflect their limited availability and relative strength when compared to other feats.
Elephant stomp gives you what is effectively a Double Move with an Attack. Useful for say being unable to charge for Difficult terrain during your first move.
And you have to realize not every Campaign is nice. Some of them Charging isn't as viable as using the Overrun.
Don't call something useless just because you can't see the Tactics it can be useful for.
Move Then Take the Overrun.
Isn't there a Clarification?
So, your argument for why Elephant Stomp isn't utterly useless is that there may be a situation that comes up maybe ONCE ever ...
Oh I by no means meant it was good compared to other feats. Other people were claiming (I think) that it was 100% useless, as in, having it could never help you under any circumstances. I was merely claiming that, in principle, it might help.
Move Then Take the Overrun.
Perhaps I misread, but I didn't think it worked like that.
I don't even understand what you could mean, because elephant stomp forgoes an overrun you were already making and stops you from moving. I can't see how it allows extra mobility.
Elephant Stomp makes you stop at the enemy.
EDIT: Seems PFRPG has either Errata'd or had changed the Overrun. It has now been Nerfed.