Hello forums. I'm looking for some advice building my "Bounty Hunter". I'm a long time Tabletop gamer, but this is my first Pathfinder game. My gaming group expects me (once again) to pull a "Batman" character out of my butt to fill in the gaps. But I'm not that comfortable with Pathfinder.
Design Goals
- Be versatile.
- Probably the groups skill monkey
- Backup healing
- Secondary melee
- Better than average at ranged.
- Not be TOO good as to make other characters redundant
House rules to be made aware of
- We like small parties. Noe leadership style feats.
- Loopholes and cheese are frowned upon.
- Alchemists are arcane casters. They qualify for feats.
- Alchemical buffs are affected by dispel/anti-magic
- All official Paizo material is in
- No Vivisectionist. Seriously Paizo, you couldn't think of a name and flavor that didn't have such a serial killer vibe to it? Vivisection means to dissect a creature while still alive, and attempting to keep it alive as long as possible just to study it.
For flavor reasons here is what needs to be in the build.
- Half-Orc
- Alchimist primary class
- Uses guns
- Lawful-Neutral
- Character was raised by Orcs so Orc feats/Traits are fair game
- Character starts at level 6 w/ 16,000 gold
- I'm allowed to craft items during character creation at cost, including magic items if I buy the feat.
- Here is what I rolled for Stats
- 18
- 16
- 16
- 15
- 14
- 12
Setting/Party
- Edge of the empire in some backwater fort in the woods. 2 Months from civilization. Lord has workers building a road through the woods. Caravans bring supplies weekly, but they are mundane equipment.
- Character will be lucky to hit level 12 so build for level 6, with a little room to grow.
Other members
- Catfolk Rogue - Likes Bows - 5/10 Optimized
- Human Bard - 20 Charisma - probably well made, player does not optimize much though 5/10
- Halfling Monk - good player but sounds sub-optimal 6/10
I'm thinking Gunslinger 1/Alchemist 5
- Strength 14 (switch with Wisdom?)
- Dexterity 16
- Constitution 15 (bump to 16 @ level 4)
- Intelligence 18 (racial bump to 20)
- Wisdom 16 (switch to Strength?)
- Charisma 12
- Use bombs for utility smoke/stink
- Character has lived in Katapesh and Katheer. But moves around a lot as a bounty hunter.
- He is a complete pragmatist. If it is useful he uses it, unless it is TERRIBLY evil.
Can I be competent with guns with 1 level of Gunslinger? How?
I have 3 Feats, 2 Traits, 2 Alchemist Discoveries. Ideas?
Considering nowhere to buy magical gear, We find it or make it. Is the gear available with the crafting feats worth more than the feat slot?
GM uses NPC spells cleverly. I need to bump up my wil save or risk murdering the party.
Traits seem powerful. Is the feat that grants 2 traits worth it?
What kind of strategies should I employ?
Gear?
I have enough gold that I'm going to take pretty much all the 1st, and nearly all the 2nd level extracts.
The only damaging extract I see myself actually using is Blistering Invective. There is something about yelling insults at your enemies so hard they catch on fire.
I also think I'm going to be a skill dipper. Probably grab the Highlander trait to add sneak. Between the 2 classes, grab all 4 Knowledge skills. Grab all other class skills between the 2 classes. Grab Craft Alchemy/Armor/Books/Clothing?/Leather/Locks/Shoes?/Siege Engine?/Traps/Weapons
Keep UMD/Stealth/Acrobatics/Perception maxed. Are there soft caps for these?
Do I go Straight Gunslinger?
Musket master (never getting Free Action Reloads?)
Guntank/Pistolero for Medium/Heavy/Shields and Grit to damage pistols
I would go 5 lvls of gunslinger 1 lvl of alchemist and then progress as alchemist to lvl 12
5th lvl gunslinger is one of the pivotal lvls as it allows Dex to damage with firearms
Past that alchemists R pretty solid class specially if you use the dex mutigin to and potions to help buff your offense and defense.
Bomb at lvl 1 would be only 1D6+ int mod, first discovery I would prob take personally is selective targeting so your bombs can choose to not hit selective space
Also I believe the alchemist power to add int to damage is with all splash weapons not just thrown ones so might work with the blunderbuss which deals splash damage if I rem,ember it right (which I might not)
Really there's no reason to have more then 5 lvls of gunslinger if your only going to lvl 12 and if you have less then 5 lvls you might as well only take 1 lvl as the next good benefit is at lvl 5.
Blunderbuss is a cone not a splash.
I understand that Gunslinger 5 is more optimal with guns, but it puts everything alchemist related completely out of reach.
The core of the build must be 5 levels of alchemist.
The "Batman" character uses gear/planning/strategy/wide training to overcome problems instead of natural talent. How can I use combinations of gear and tricks to make 1 level of Gunslinger viable?
If this means using a Large Double musket while we close, then switching to melee, I'm fine with that. The goal is to be passable at everything, without being a Star at anything.
The only "primary" I would consider myself is battlefield control.
Alchemist Archetypes?
Chirugeon
Pro
- I can infuse cure extracts without having to take the discovery
- Free "Skill Focus (Heal)"
- Always do minimum damage when using heal. Stuff like removing hooks and barbs.
- If I actually get to level 10 Alchemist, I get "breath of Life" as a spell, and it can get infused as a cure spell.
Con
- Lose Poison use
- Lose Poison resistance +4
- I end up gaining +2 @ Alchemist 2
- +4 @ Alchemist 8
- Lose Poison Immunity
BeastMorph
Pro
- When using Mutagen, get an ability from Alter self. Adds more utility to mutagens
- Level 6 in Alchemist gets me 2 abilities from Beast Shape I (includes all abilities from Alter Self).
- If I ever get to Alchemist 10 I get 3 abilities from Beast Shape II
Con
- Lose Swift Alchemy - Makes having tons of utility alchemy items a bit harder to keep stocked.
- Lose Swift Poisoning - Not that painful considering you also...
- Lose Poison resistance +2/+4/+6 and poison immunity
Grenadier
Pro
- Proficiency in 1 Martial Weapon - Worthless since I already have all Martial Weapons from Gunslinger.
- Alchemical Weapon - infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action.
- Free Discovery - Precise Bombs
- Directed Blast - Bomb can become a cone attack...Only 1 target gets hit with the primary charge, others are splash. Meh
- If I ever reach Alchemist 10 my bombs stagger if they crit. Fort save negates.
Con
- Lose Brew potion - This one hurts enough that I feel I'd need to spend a feat to get this again.
- Lose all Poison Resistance
- Lose Poison use
- Lose Swift Poisoning
- Lose Poison Immunity
How much am I actually giving up with these? Are poisons worth anything? Are Alchemical items worth even using?
Give me some examples.
If not taking gunslinger 5 then I suggest simply not taking gunslinger and grab the feat or gun use. Guns damage is super subpar even in my eyes without being able to add dex. It means your ranged weapon is suffering a notable damage per shot loss. Further guns make poor long range weapons since they use very short range increments, something I am not super happy with personally.
I guess actually lvl 1 gunslinger and never taking another lvl is decent for reduced bullet costs and effectively 2 free feats (gun use,and the one to have grit) plus of course the reduced bullet cost.
For control a blunderbuss might still be decent, don't sound like your focusing on your firearm so you won't be able to fire it more then here and there. Further it could give u a decent scatter shot or slug perhaps get double barreled and load 1 of each type in each barrel. So realy we r looking at builds for a lvl 5 alchemist with plans of going up 6 more lvls by games end
Yes. Treat this as an Level 5 Alchemist build. But With access to light/medium/heavy armor, shields(including tower), all Martial Weapons.
FYI. A Large Double Pistol is 2d6 damage, still a 1 handed weapon, and you only take -2 to hit. You can also choose to fire both barrels at once with -4 to hit on each attack. Adding the distance enchant means I'm still targeting touch AC at 40 feet. It's expensive though.
I'm thinking my 2 discoveries need to be smoke and stink bomb. Infusion makes sense mechanically, but I can't justify it in the character back story. I'll probably pick it up at alchemist 6 though after he becomes a proper party member and less of a loner.
I can always add Unstable Accelerant to some prepared bombs if I want to add damage. But I'm thinking he uses his 10 bombs a day on area control/denial.
He should have plenty of non lethal options. Not for moral reasons, he couldn't care less. Strictly because many bounties pay more for live capture.
Get that bandolier ... endless one? The one that reloads one firearm for free as a swift action per round. 1000gp iirc
Add that to musket master and you're a long range shooter with several shots per round... or better: Take Focused Shot. Bad feat otherwise, Int to damage for one shot per round... but a double barreled musket with 2d12+int is nice for one shot.
And you keep those nice hitpoints, BAB+1, many feats and good saves. Think about level 2: Nimble is great... especially with a race that allows for a nimble increasing alternative favored class option like kobolds.
Ahh I was looking for one of those Bandoliers to go with my Handy Haversack. But it does not do anything more than storage.
Endless Bandolier
Since I don't get free reloads, I feel that musket master is strictly inferior to Guntank + Pistolero.
I suppose another option Would be to go with a pepper-box pistol. That is 6 shots with free action reloads instead of 2 shots without reloading with the double pistol.
I can get free action reloads with pistolero with the Quick reload feat + Alchemical Rounds.
I'm a 7' Half-Orc no kobold business for me
OOHH you meant
Beneficial Bandolier
That makes it a swift action.
I wouldn't even worry about gunslinger personally. I'd try to go with an alchemist/inquisitor build. Then you get some pretty nifty abilities with solo tactics, get the monster lore, the teamwork stuff, bane, tracking, bonuses on initiative, and instead of a gun use the Launching Crossbow to deliver your alchemist bombs. This just sounds really batmanish to me. Just food for thought.
I did look at inquisitor as well. But for 1 level, I get WAY more things from Gunslinger.
This character has already been encountered, and has already used guns. So guns are a must. He was not at all fleshed out though. That is why I'm building him now, after he has technically bee "played" for part of an encounter.
I suppose he could be a spellslinger or another Gun toting Archetype. But I seem to get strictly less things from those alternate classes.
This character is kind of being used to see how alchemy works in pathfinder, and for us to learn the gun rules for a possible upcoming Wyrd West style adventure.
I don't see any reason I couldn't use that Crossbow anyway. It is a Martial weapon. Gunslingers get All Martial weapons.
One of my favorite characters I've seen on the boards here is Ravingdork's "Robilar Smithe," who is an alchemist that uses guns. You might find some inspiration there.
P.S. Sorry RD if I violate some etiqutte rules on linking to your character this way, i couldn't figure out how to link to the direct post.
That is a really well built character. Seems to fit together nicely.
I'm still looking for gear and strategy input. I just haven't had time to look over EVERY piece of gear to see how it interacts with everything else. Any ideas?
I know I want a Handy Haversack, and the big lost of mundane gear I always grab (on characters that are smart enough at least).
A "Saw Backed" sword acts like a saw, without having to carry extra gear.
Anyone know how weapon materials effect this augmentation?
If I have a saw backed adamantine longsword, can I use it to cut through harder materials? Like metal bars?
Explosive Missile and Explosive Bomb is probably the best 2 discoveries to take for this character. Explosive Missile is a Standard Action attack with a Bow / Crossbow/ 1h firearm that does bomb damage and includes the loading of the bullet within the same action. Explosive Bomb will give the the target a 1d6 DOT until it puts its self out with a Full-round Action and increases the radius of the splash damage. This will allow u to proportion ur bombs greatly since all u need to do is hit the target 1ce to apply a constant damage tick on the target then fire at it normally with ur gun. Do this against all targets and let ur party finish them off as ur applying burns. If the target runs well it will have to take the tie to deal with the burn or die up the road. Its great burst and sustained damage all for 1 bomb. Mutagens btw i think of as basically steroids that pump the character for a short time.
How is a discovery that makes my bullet a bomb, but restricts me to having to hit the target with my shot, better than me just throwing a bomb, or shooting multiple bullets?
I could see it being cool if I was focused on long range musket shots, with a distance weapon, and the scope that lets me hit touch AC out to maximum range. Putting a bomb in someones face at 800 feet could be cool.
But it sounds like a lot of investment for a very minor increase in utility. I'm thinking that smoke/stink bombs provide me WAY more utility by making cover and Nausea.
I'm gonna start arming my party with Launching crossbows and Alchemists Fire once we settle our differences.
If ur at a point were loading the bullet is a standard action then the discovery is quite effective since loading the bullet is part of the action. Also the gun bullet can hit touch AC at 1st increment 2nd if its an advanced firearm and at any range with the grit ability meaning ur bombs range is greater. Also u will be able to do both bomb and bullet damage in the same round as the same action with out needing to pick up fast bombs and have a bab of +6. Plus with Explosive bomb that damage over time is very sexy especially at low levels. Since ur not going 5 levels Gunslinger right off the bat to add dex to damage u can take the vital strike feats to up ur gun damage with out needing to chance a miss on ur 2nd attack at only 1 bab instead of doing it all at max bab.
Wow, I am actually impressed with this thread. When you said "gunslinger/alchemist" I actually thought the worst. I usually see alchemist taken as a dip to get an extra limb so people can take those sill dual pistol builds. This is refreshing.
Part of me wants to to actually go vanilla for both classes.
1) As you said, you might want to use muskets for the missile discovery, but pistols are much more manageable as a primary weapon if you are not taking 3 levels of musket master. With a vanilla gunslinger, you are proficient with all fire arms. You should carry both a musket and a dragon pistol (as both a normal 1 handed weapon and a scatter weapon). You will find them useful because...
2.) a lot of alchemist archetypes remove poison use and poison immunity. Since you are mainly an alchemist that has access to fire arms, you might find all those trick bullets useful. The most obvious is the pitted bullet: that is the one that you can poison with ease. Other special ammo include: Entangling shot (which will entangle for 2d4 rounds) and Dragon's fire for 2d6 fire damage. A dragon pistol should be your primary weapon since it is better than the blunderbuss, serving multiple roles, but reloaded for free if you take rapid reload and cartridges.
Remember, you have access to a lot more than just ranged touch damage and a few spells from these classes. Battlefield control is a major resource. Tanglefoot bags are especially good with alchemist's abilities with throwing and your ability to almost mass produce them with fast alchemy. Entangle bomb is also a good discovery. See the pattern there? Also, you can always use a keg of black powder as a weapon. 5d6 fire damage in a 20 burst is almost as good many mid level spells. It could make a decent mine if you ever have time to set up, or are willing to sacrifice a cart. Plus, I would think that fast alchemy could be applied to making black powder at least.
@lemeres
Missile discovery can only be taken with 1h firearms. Also u can shoot all those specialty bombs from ur gun with the Explosive Missile Discovery since it dose not have an * by it.
Well... damn then, forget the musket. You do get access to all martial weapons though, so a backup bow is not out of the question...I guess...
Getting a poisoned ranged touch attack would still be great though.
Well, I suppose that pistols can still be effective if you use a lot of the Longshot spell.
Pistol reloads start as a standard. Alchemical rounds makes it Move, Rapid Reload makes it a free action.
Just 1 feat required for pistols.
I'm thinking my main gun will be a double pistol. And carry a dragon pistol with salt rounds for non lethal.
Large double pistol is 2d6 damage at -2 to hit. Plus I can fire it twice without reloading, or I can fire both rounds at once at another -4 if need be.
Wow, I hadn't thought of that powder keg idea. Then I went to look it up. A Keg costs 1000gp. Even making it myself costs 333Gp
I'm planning on having a bunch of variable ammo. And I can make items during character creation at material cost. Which is 1/3 the cost FYI.
Weapon Blanch looks like a great cheap alternative for prepping lots of ammo with materials.
How many Adamantine/Silver/Cold-Iron rounds should I be sporting?
What poisons are cost effective?
I'm definitely going to be using a Cold-Iron Silver spiked gauntlet. No more being unarmed/disarmed. No weapon slot needed.
A cold-iron spiked gauntlet only costs 10gp, or 3.3gp if I make it myself.
It is actually cheaper to make regular ammo and add adamantine Weapon Blanch to it.
20 rounds of Adamantite ammo costs 406gp to make.
or
21 regular rounds = 7gp
2 doses of Adamantine Weapon Blanch (effects 10 rounds each) = 66gp
total = 73gp
Prophes0r wrote: Wow, I hadn't thought of that powder keg idea. Then I went to look it up. A Keg costs 1000gp. Even making it myself costs 333Gp Gunsmithing makes it cost 10% the listed price, so that is 100 gp. Takes a day of work, but hey, it is not like you are wasting anything since you can use it like it was intended if you never blow it up.
Now, you were asking "how much adamantine ammo" you should have. Hmmm... Honestly? You have a bard on your party, and they seem focused on being a caster with their 20 CHA. Maybe encourage them to get the "Abundant Ammunition" spell. It is as first level spell, so it would not be that much trouble. It would let you have an endless supply of ammo of the special non magical ammo. For adamantine at least, you would save a lot. It also helps makes sense if anyone uses arrows.
Get it as a wand at least, since it would still end up cheaper. It costs 750 gp, and it has 50 charges= 50 different fights. So even if the effect only lasted a minute, it would last the majority of a fight. So 10 full attacks (3-4 per), so 30-40 per casting.. It comes out to as low as 3-4 gp per bullet you will use, even if it is adamantine. Yeah, probably better than having the bard actually use a spell known for this. Assuming it works on cartridges, you are actually saving money compared to using normal bullets. You would only need to have enough of the ammo to make a full attack.
The rest of the party is already set, they have been playing since level 3. We will work on some synergy later on when the party and I can stand each other.
We are only working together because the local lord is paying me, and threatened us with prison labor if we caused harm to each other.
At the moment my character only relies or trusts himself. So he wouldn't incorporate others into his strategy. He is going to have to learn that a group is much more that the sum of it's parts.
wait....
So with the Alchemy skill I can make mundane items (Alchemical Cartridges) at 1/3 the cost. But when I get the Gunsmithing feat, suddenly I can only make them at 1/2 the cost?
I'm going to be bringing a Quickdraw mithril shield and a 1 handed weapon around for when I don't have the time to cast shield and use my 2hander.
I'm going to try and bring multiple damage types, since we use the damage type rules for things like undead, though we usually find it too much trouble to figure it out for every NPC armor type.
What 1 handed weapon should I use?
2-h weapon?
Greatsword / Greataxe / Falchion?
Reach weapon maybe?
I was a slave for a bit, so I could switch out my Orc weapon proficiency for the one that gives me spiked chain.
|
