Ok so nobody in my group that I'm running through Jade Regent can use the weapons found so far and they are currently looking for Suishen. Now one member of the party wants to sell off the other weapons as no one can use them, but another party member is kinda meta-gaming that if they are worth as much as they think they are that the weapons have some sort of plot hook tied to them.
What should I do?
No...the one player does not want to give up a feat to use one.....however there is one player that might take his next level in Samurai or Paladin...I'm trying to think of a way to swing it more toward Samurai.
The usefulness of both of the earlier weapons is not exactly in their 'weapon' qualities, but more in the associated powers they have.
The Wasp still gets summoned by both of my groups even in book 3, and Whispering Shrike's shield ally is good with a decent duration.
These are all pretty decent low level abilities.
As for Suishen, any 2h weapon user with martial proficiency doesn't actually have to take anything special to use him. His powers are also quite good even if someone just wears him and he is brought out to use his buffs.
The other two weapons could be easily sold without ramification, but Suishen, I can't imagine them not wishing to keep the sword.
As part of the custom treasure in brinewall I included a slightly magic instruction manual on sword fighting with katana and wakizashi. I think its a week or two of practicing to gain proficiency.
Likewise, as a GM I wouldn't be opposed to players seeking out a master and paying in gold and ingame practice to gain weapon proficiency, within reason.
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Well, aside from it being the responsibility of the GM to make sure that his players understand that this campaign is going to be heavily Asia-themed ( i.e. make sure that they either have or can accomodate those exotic weapon proficiencies ), only Suishen is really all that good. IMO, of course.
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What I would do in this situation, allow for "training" that would allow the weapons to be considered to be martial weapons for the characters that undergo the training. Perhaps it could be a boon, offered by an NPC.
Of course, if the players do not know that it is possible, they would be more inclined to attempt to sell the items.
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Well, aside from it being the responsibility of the GM to make sure that his players understand that this campaign is going to be heavily Asia-themed ( i.e. make sure that they either have or can accomodate those exotic weapon proficiencies ), only Suishen is really all that good. IMO, of course.
While it may be heavily Asian-themed, only about half of the AP takes place in Tian Xia. It would be expected that there would be regular stuff as well, as there is much to be had that is still western themed.
And a lot of characters in my two Jade Regent campaigns are Varisian. If players choose to make characters who cannot use the asian-themed weapons, that's their choice.
However, the AP is pretty clear on where it is going and what its theme is. So GM's should warn their players that a lot of the unique equipment they will find may come with an exotic weapon proficiency requirement attached. It is not as if it is impossible to make Tian expatriates or their descendants as character.
Just to chime in, in a Dragon article I recently read, they suggested a properly high crafting skill check for changing the size of a magical armor from large to medium - maybe this is another possible way "out".
Ruyan.
Keep in mind, however, that Suishen is an artifact, so no re-crafting here. Just in case anybody is thinking about that.
I wonder if Suishen would be affected by the effects of an Enlarge Person spell. Huh.
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What I would do in this situation, allow for "training" that would allow the weapons to be considered to be martial weapons for the characters that undergo the training. Perhaps it could be a boon, offered by an NPC.
Of course, if the players do not know that it is possible, they would be more inclined to attempt to sell the items.
I am all for the "training" method. Something like once you get the weapon, you start practicing with it at -4 and get the penalty reduced to -2 at your next level and no penalty at the level after. And if you actually use the weapon in combat, it goes faster.
Another possibility is to start a side-quest to find "that legendary/semi-divine smith" who can reshape even artifacts into similar weapons you are proficient in.
I am also thinking about devising a way to "buy" feats with gold, so that magic items are not the only way to spend your money (less christmas effect, I hope, and more variety to PCs based on feats). The EWP feat would be a good candidate to consider for this system.
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I used the excellent "magical book that imparts new abilities on characters" idea for the ending treasure of the first book. One character has expressed an interest in using the katana and wakizashi combo, but is worried about the feats. I'm giving him the feats for free. I"m giving other characters abilities to that mesh with what I know about things they're looking for in their characters.
I thought this was a way to make sure that the players that made characters that fit the starting point of the campaign didn't suffer too much in having to make changes to ue the Tian Xia items.
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What I'm considering is that, because the PCs are "chosen by destiny", that they should be considered proficient only with the named weapons they find in these modules. I think it's fitting that any Amatatsu scion (within reason) finds that Suishen feels familiar and comfortable in their hands.
This makes a lot of sense. In this case, I would use this as well.
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Remember katana and wakizashi can be used with broadsword and shortsword proficiences.
Wasp isn't that useful anyway unless a Monk really wants it.
You can extend the above for eg naginata (polearms proficency), and most swords easily enough. Just don't allow the charaacter to use any special benefits of the weapon (eg katana can ony be used 2 handed with a 19-20 critical, etc).
Remember katana and wakizashi can be used with broadsword and shortsword proficiences.
Erm... no, they can't. Per RAW in Ultimate Combat, a katana can be wielded as a two-handed martial weapon, but if you want to use a katana one-handed, or wield a wakizashi, they're both rated as Exotic weapons and you need the corresponding EWP. :S
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Like I said, you can use a katana with martial weapons. Various bits of jade regent suggest you can use A Wakizashi with shortsword.
GMs are allowed to use logic for similar weapon types rather than rules definitions - as are players.
It is simply unreasonable to suggest that someone who can use a broadsword or scimatar would be totally stumped if they picked up a Dao or Nine Rings Sword.
Rules cannot be rigid, we're playing a game and trying to accomodate reasonable 'reality' (yes, I know), not stick to precedents in a courtroom.
Can someone use a naginata somewhat like one of the many polearms they are already trained in? I would say so, though they might not know all its intricacies and 'special effects'.
When I started the AP I was upfront about the themes involved, My only statement was that a Samurai or Ninja character might be subject to a few more plot hooks than other characters and that I would work with the player about those hooks. When it came time for character creation no one made ether a Samurai or Ninja...nor did any one take an EWP. Now the party has a Tengu cleric of Desna that could use the Wakizashi I believe but the Rogue that is handling party loot refuses to let his have it(A feeling of mistrust from fighting the Dire Corbies in Brinewall). The Rogue is also the one saying that the party should sell the items, He has made mention to the leader of the party that selling the Amatatsu Seal would set the party up for life. So I think there is more to this than I think.
So I think there is more to this than I think.
Sounds like it. As far as it goes, I can only really think of two weapons in the first 3 books that are going to even cause a hiccup on proficiencies.
You will either have some great role playing opportunities coming up, OR a horrible out of character experience. The problem you have at the moment, is the character is not bought in to the goals of the adventure. Work with him in character towards getting him an in character reason for coming.
Here are some things that spring to mind to try to help right the characters course(if it is an issue for you). Note, do not try this approach unless you have a reasonably mature group of players who are capable of separating in character and out of character action.
If money is all he wants, honestly the wealth of a Kingdom may be eventually at his disposal. This is an easy in for characters seeking wealth and/or power. If he becomes problematic, have Ameiko passive aggressively offer him an out, "If you are just looking an easy comfortable life, take the rest of my savings(insert monetary wealth amount that is appealing) and take it easy. You've earned it for helping me this far but I can't ask you to give any more of yourself, it should allow you to be comfortable."
Suishen is also capable of confronting him if he is the type to respond to having his nose rubbed in it. "Your goals no longer seem to align with that of my lady. The seal has seen something in your heart that shows promise, but your selfish goals do are all to apparent to me..."
Also, how does the rest of the party feel about this characters actions? They might also be able to be swayed if this characters ideals become a threat to the group overall.
Depending on where you guys are, you also have an in to test his loyalty. Kalsgard is a decent chance for this if you guys are not past it yet. Have Frozen Shadows agents contact him, offering him his wildest dreams to sell out his friends(so long as it makes sense that their affiliations are known). If he is the type to go for it, by all means let him do it, the consequences are all too obvious to the player. At the very least it should cause him to think about what he really wants.
The obvious goal of any of these encounters is to steer him back on to task or make him question his characters true motivations. He may see that his character does not fit and may request to have his character step out. Otherwise he might have an IC crisis and realize the error of his ways. You know your individual player best, so try to tailor your approach depending on his personality.
I have three player in my Jade Regent campaign. We made an agreement for this campaign at the start that it is possible to do training to get over the non-proficient penalties. This requires some time, maybe a teacher and it doesn't happen over night, must have some roleplaying scenes where character trains with weapon.
I have one bard, one ninja and one samurai in my group. Bard is savage skald from Land of the Linnorm Kings who uses her ancestral sword and almost nothing else (she carries ninefold spirit sword with her, made it pure longsword for that reason). Ninja isn't really a ninja as we understand it, more like rogue with some monk abilities. He is pure unarmed man after finding out that there was Amatatsu Guardian that only used his fists to protect Amatatsu Empress. Samurai had katana from the start and he has been training a lot with katanas from the start. So we had ruling that characters could get "free proficiency" but noneone has used the chance. (Samurai uses most of the eastern weapons without much in-game training scenes but it fits as he trains almost every time I ask what their characters are doing when they've free time)
So I would advice you that if someone wants to use eastern weapons but doesn't want to use feat to do it, go with it. It doesn't change the game much and cool weapons get more use that way. I'm bit saddened that my group left Dancing Wasp to the caravan without using it even once. It is very cool weapon in my opinion. Whispering Shrike is at Iqaliat village on the tomb of samurai's forefather, waiting samurai to come back to tell the tale about their quest for Minkai. Suishen and Ninefold Spirit Sword are most used eastern weapons in my game.
Well the party just hit Kalsgard and has spent there first night there. The player of the Rogue took a moment at the end of game while every one was busy packing up to handle his character looking to get a Greater Hat of Disguise made for him....it has come to my attention that while he has been in charge of party loot that he seems to be skimming a little of the top of everyone else's share & not being honest as to the vale of the pieces of treasure he has; as he traded a Ring of the Ram {8,600 gp} & a Hand of Glory {8,000 gp} for a 12,000 gp item. According to my notes he seems to be a full 10,000 to 13,000 gp head of the rest of the party in personal treasure. I'm hoping that the party leader notices this soon.
I had made it known to the players that i was going to allow retraining the way it was handled in 3.5, it just means that they needed to find the time and a teacher. Nobody has yet to take me up on this offer as well.
Ah. Funnily enough, I play a similar character (a bard ex-thief) that is the quartermaster of all the gear. However, he's of the opinion that you never "take from your guild" since it's bad for business. Not that the monk believes him but hey, you do what you can.
Hm. Well, if he tries to sell it, he'd have to open it to show it to buyers. Now he's wandering around town with two powerful artifacts, one of which the evil group there is looking for.
He'll get attention, all right.
That could be the trigger for Ameiko's abduction...or...perhaps he's approached by -someone- who offers to pay him to stick with the group and lead them to Minkai and the Regent.
When I started the AP I was upfront about the themes involved, My only statement was that a Samurai or Ninja character might be subject to a few more plot hooks than other characters and that I would work with the player about those hooks. When it came time for character creation no one made ether a Samurai or Ninja...nor did any one take an EWP. Now the party has a Tengu cleric of Desna that could use the Wakizashi I believe but the Rogue that is handling party loot refuses to let his have it(A feeling of mistrust from fighting the Dire Corbies in Brinewall). The Rogue is also the one saying that the party should sell the items, He has made mention to the leader of the party that selling the Amatatsu Seal would set the party up for life. So I think there is more to this than I think.
Wow. In this case have the Seal alert Ameiko on this and withhold all of it's powers until the issue is settled.
The artifact of the Amatsu Seal has a spirit attached to it that made Ameiko in a coma before, right? If it's sold, couldn't it do that again?
Well if you really want to get a point across, if the rogue tries to sell the Seal, have him get approached by agents of the Regant who offer a nice sum. Not to high or else he might get suspicous(50k perhaps)
Of course, when/if the rogue brings the Seal, he gets betrayed and slain. Have the Seal alert the others(Perhaps the box it is in gets opened when they confirm the Seal is there.) allowing the party a good amount of time to suit up and head out. Give them a modest challenge to account for the smaller party, perhaps ambushing the celebrating agents.
Well the party just hit Kalsgard and has spent there first night there. The player of the Rogue took a moment at the end of game while every one was busy packing up to handle his character looking to get a Greater Hat of Disguise made for him....it has come to my attention that while he has been in charge of party loot that he seems to be skimming a little of the top of everyone else's share & not being honest as to the vale of the pieces of treasure he has; as he traded a Ring of the Ram {8,600 gp} & a Hand of Glory {8,000 gp} for a 12,000 gp item. According to my notes he seems to be a full 10,000 to 13,000 gp head of the rest of the party in personal treasure. I'm hoping that the party leader notices this soon.
I had made it known to the players that i was going to allow retraining the way it was handled in 3.5, it just means that they needed to find the time and a teacher. Nobody has yet to take me up on this offer as well.
Sounds like a real gem of a player, that Rogue. Did you not make clear at the start of the campaign what it is going to be about or is he trying to sabotage the campaign on purpose?
I made it as clear as could be with out giving spoilers way. This player has a habit of testing me on all levels of sanity. Be it a Wizard that uses Fabricate to turn every mundane item the party finds into a master work version of said item (and thus throwing off the treasure curve of the AP), or repeated versions of this rogue that seems to only be motivated by $$$.
Well, if someone were to do this across multiple campaigns and wouldn't listen to pleas to scale back his behaviour, I'd spend some serious thoughts on shrinking the group by one player.
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There are a few times in the early adventures where they allow you to pick the treasure drops. Like say in the vault of Brinewall itself. You can also mix gear in with the Vikings the PC's run across. Lacking that, have some of the NPCs you help offers standard enchanted items as rewards.
So far the PC's have found an Adamantium Axe, A 5th level wizards spell book, a few wands, a minor meta magic rod, etc.
Nothing game breaking but much more useful by the PC's based on their training/skills.
Also one of the PC's IS a weapons/arms crafter and he's churned out a few minor items during the long trips. He just converted one of the wagon carts into a workshop. He's a few hundred gold away from perfecting a glaive for his summon critter.
Have them somehow realize that they've got the transformative power.
I customized the treasure in the Brinewall vault.....to the point of almost having PC name tags on the items. If I don't make it that in blatant the rogue talks the party into keeping the items in party loot or "out on loan" till the party can sell off the items for more specific gear. That is how I think he has managed to skim off the top of the party loot and afford to have over 10,000 gp more in magic items than the rest of the party. I know if this is ever brought to light the Magus/Paladin of the group will take the party loot off his cold dead body.
I customized the treasure in the Brinewall vault.....to the point of almost having PC name tags on the items. If I don't make it that in blatant the rogue talks the party into keeping the items in party loot or "out on loan" till the party can sell off the items for more specific gear. That is how I think he has managed to skim off the top of the party loot and afford to have over 10,000 gp more in magic items than the rest of the party. I know if this is ever brought to light the Magus/Paladin of the group will take the party loot off his cold dead body.
*Next time party mage casts detect magic* "You can't help noticing that the Rogue seems to be shining twice as brightly as the rest of the party... XP
In fairness, if everyone is contributing equally in combat, some loot disparity is not a bad thing. It becomes a problem if one PC is clearly outshining the rest because they've skimmed and argued their way into a larger share of the loot.
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Did the party save Kelga? Maybe her family offers them to do some side favors for items as rewards? That's what my group did. They gave the deed to the hurscarl's home (which they found on site) to Kelgas family and in return her clan protected the Caravan from ninjas while in town, and offered them resources for the trip over the pole. Freeing up money for items.
Another idea is to have them to the Opal District and hear rumors about a trade company looking for minor magic items of Tien make (due to a demand south) and they are willing to trade lesser items for them.
So that way you can ditch things like magical wakazashi's for longswords, etc.
Once they cross over you might have Taldor merchants taveling the other way carrying various items of Taldor make they didn't 'sale' in Tien and are looking to offload them at a discount before returning home.
There are LOADS of ways to fix the issue.