. How is stealth handled in League of Legends? Aside from knowing that there will be stealth, we are (at least I am) unsure how it will be handled.
Goblin Squad Member
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League of Legends is one of the worst stealth systems I have run into, If people can't see you in the tall grass, you shouldn't be able to see out of the tall grass. And champions with stealth are way to easy to shut down and counter.
There is a very long thread with a discussion about stealth, with comments from Ryan, I suggest searching the forums.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm sure that there will be a stealth skill tree. But since skills aren't going to make us better, I think stealth would have to be ability-based. There should be specific stealth-combat abilities, but I would also like to see passive abilities that may increase my stealth check while crouched and only those with sufficient perception can see me. I always find it much more satisfying to move through shadows into a position where I can backstab, rather than run in swinging... ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm trying to maintain a list of Popular Player Threads. If you have suggestions, please let me know about them.
A few ideas that have come up on another forum regarding stealth that I thought might be worth considering..
Have terrain and your position relative to objects play a part in your ability to remain undetected. Like being on the shady side of a building verses the side facing the sun, being in tall grass, or in dense foliage, in darkened corners etc..
Have the time of day ie. the amount of sunlight play a part in a players stealth ability, and perhaps movement speed, faster you move the lower the quality of stealth.
Seems to me you could have higher stealth skill trained characters able to remain stealthed while moving faster, or being in more open areas while those with lower skill in stealth would have to move slower, stay in more darkened areas etc.. Similar to how it's done in the game Thief.
Just some thoughts I wanted to throw out to consider.. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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In Ultima Online, if a monster was after you and had LoS, you couldn't hide, but if you snuck around the corner of a building and then hit your "hide" hotkey, you could. If a game that old could at least make an attempt to include variables based on your surroundings, I would hope PFO will do it even better.
Personally, I love stealthing. Especially for not being the combative type, stealth is one of the most useful skills I take in a game. As for what should influence stealth (and hiding)...
Night/Day - In most games, night provides little more than ambiance. In reality, hiding and stealthing should be a whole lot more successful at night and perception rolls a whole lot tougher to make.
Coloring/Camouflage - Hiding and stealthing doesn't always imply hiding in shadows, so the coloration of the environment and what you're wearing should come into play. To have the game check your wardrobe color against the color of whatever environment you're in and keep up with that check every time you make a step is asking too much. However, could you have specific dye combinations or kits for specific types of camouflage? Instead of the tailor or alchemist creating one color of dye for dying the outfit, what if they have to use three different dye colors (more costly but worth the bonus) to make a particular camo-kit? So to make forest camouflage, they have to use forest green, medium green and brown for a +5% stealth bonus, but only granted in forest hexes. Using a specific dying kit could then mark the clothing to trigger the bonus in the appropriate terrain.
Cover - Some games (I believe SWG did it) have used some game calculation to determine a combat defense bonus based on what percentage of your body was exposed to enemy fire. If a game can calculate that for LoS combat, why not for a bonus to your chance of hiding?
Positioning - Also in SWG, how you were positioned (standing, kneeling, or prone) determined another combat defense modifier. Again, you're harder to see if you're lying down, so body attitude might provide more or less aid in hiding. For stealthing, moving in a crouch should make you slightly less visible than standing upright.
Movement Speed - As said already. the faster you move, the more easily detected you should be, which is likely why many games with stealthing reduce your movement speed to simulate this (you want to be less noticeable, you have to move at a "sneakier" pace).
Distance - The closer you are to those you're trying to hide from or stealth past, the harder it should be.
Other Environmental Factors - Fog, smoke, steam, spells that create fog, smoke, or steam, other more distracting activities in the area, etc.
Though I love stealthing - it truly is one of my favorite skills even though I don't play assassins or thieves - and though I have enjoyed sneaking around totally unseen in broad daylight, I hope PFO goes for a more realistic take on stealth. That someone is so masterful at stealthing that they can stand an inch from my nose without me seeing them is a bit silly. Now, invisibility...I can only imagine what wild fun and chaotic mischief that spell will allow in a game where spies, espionage, and settlement secrets already find people playing the metagame a year-and-a-half before launch.
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Though I love stealthing - it truly is one of my favorite skills even though I don't play assassins or thieves - and though I have enjoyed sneaking around totally unseen in broad daylight, I hope PFO goes for a more realistic take on stealth. That someone is so masterful at stealthing that they can stand an inch from my nose without me seeing them is a bit silly.
I like your ideas!
Although I always play a rogue type and would like nothing better then to be able to stealth and never be seen, I recognize how unrealistic that is. With the talk of changing critical hits, which may include backstab type damage, I'm a bit concerned at the rogues playability if stealth can be broken easily. But I have faith that the Devs will keep the spirit of the Thief class while making what changes they make to combat and to abilities.
Something I didn't mention, that your post reminded me of. I thought about splitting stealth up based on the different roles that utilize it. Like having Rogues (Thieves) use traditional stealth (invisible type stealth), having Assassins use a more disguise, hard to identify/spot type stealth while having Rangers/Scouts use a more camouflage type stealth. It's just something that popped into my head as I was reading different posts on stealth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Valandur,
Thank you for the kind words. As for your suggestion, it seems you're describing "class stealthing", which in a game that won't be limited by class, I'm not sure is necessary. Going all the way back to D&D, a thief's "Hide in Shadows" was somewhat evocative of a thief's slinking around in a dungeon, which is where all the action took place back then. But in a full world setting, wouldn't a skilled thief want to use something like camouflage if it helped his cause? Before an assassin risks having someone get close enough to see through their disguise, wouldn't they want to use shadow stealthing to avoid being spotted in the first place? Wouldn't a seasoned ranger employ a disguise if it got him into the camp of the backwoods bandits he's spying on? That's the fun of skills rather than a class. You get to pick and choose, and by so doing, create your own hybrid "class" based on what you think your character would need to learn.
But I have faith that the Devs will keep the spirit of the Thief class while making what changes they make to combat and to abilities.
My real concern about "keeping the spirit of the Thief class" is that thieves will not, apparently, be thieving anything. Ever since Ultima Online, where people could actually steal from one another, there has been a steadily growing reluctance - more like a full out retreat away from - allowing players to steal items from one another. Even in games that allow you to loot some number of items off a PvP defeated foe, developers and many players seem far more willing to let another player loot items after PvP than to steal them. The whole move from the title thief to rogue seemed to be a way to eliminate the pilfer while keeping the sleathing, backstabling, etc. Unfortunately, in so doing, most "thief" classes have become little more than specialized fighters. GW2's thief ability of stealing specialized attacks from your enemy seems a pale, and again, combat related attempt at capturing what thieves should really do best...steal things. I have a whole proposal for how this could be done in PFO, but I don't want to derail the thread topic.
Valandur,
Thank you for the kind words. As for your suggestion, it seems you're describing "class stealthing", which in a game that won't be limited by class, I'm not sure is necessary. Going all the way back to D&D, a thief's "Hide in Shadows" was somewhat evocative of a thief's slinking around in a dungeon, which is where all the action took place back then. But in a full world setting, wouldn't a skilled thief want to use something like camouflage if it helped his cause? Before an assassin risks having someone get close enough to see through their disguise, wouldn't they want to use shadow stealthing to avoid being spotted in the first place? Wouldn't a seasoned ranger employ a disguise if it got him into the camp of the backwoods bandits he's spying on? That's the fun of skills rather than a class. You get to pick and choose, and by so doing, create your own hybrid "class" based on what you think your character would need to learn.
But I have faith that the Devs will keep the spirit of the Thief class while making what changes they make to combat and to abilities.My real concern about "keeping the spirit of the Thief class" is that thieves will not, apparently, be thieving anything. Ever since Ultima Online, where people could actually steal from one another, there has been a steadily growing reluctance - more like a full out retreat away from - allowing players to steal items from one another. Even in games that allow you to loot some number of items off a PvP defeated foe, developers and many players seem far more willing to let another player loot items after PvP than to steal them. The whole move from the title thief to rogue seemed to be a way to eliminate the pilfer while keeping the sleathing, backstabling, etc. Unfortunately, in so doing, most "thief" classes have become little more than specialized fighters. GW2's thief ability of stealing specialized attacks from your enemy seems a pale, and again, combat related attempt at capturing what thieves...
I think your right, and I suggested splitting stealth up for a game that has classes. In PFO's classless environment I don't think my suggestion would help anything.
/sigh as for the spirit of the Thief, I guess I can't help but push for a more AD&D type Thief. I've never liked the change to Rogue, never liked them being DPS doers instead of the sneaking, trap setting, poison using, backstabbing, pickpocketing guys you rarely see. Even though I don't exactly play a villainous Thief, I liked having all the options that the classic "Thief" has at their disposal. In most games they end up crippling the thief/rogue. I usually will start out playing one and end up with some other type of character once I hit the unplayable wall. In games like DAOC and EQ that wall came quickly, Rift avoided it by merging them and the Bards into a fairly OP class. We'll see where GW goes with the role, if nothing else ill go with a Ranger type character with some skills from the Thief tree.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A lot of talk about Assassins. Aren't prestige classes way, way off? Or are guys just referring to characters that take assassination contracts?
I'm fairly sure referencing:
Assassin (Evil)
Assassin is for players who want to kill specific other players, or more generally kill other players (as who doesn't like a critical hit bonus?). Assassins do have a signifier of their assassin flag, so their intent may be detected, but they also have a Stealth bonus so they can remain out of sight. Some folks have voiced concern that assassins will not be able to escape since they will be marked as an assassin, but that's what Stealth is for (and if you could hide the assassin flag after completing your kill, the guy you just killed could use chat, a vent server, etc., to tell everyone who killed him anyway).
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Goblin Squad Member
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There hasn't been a thief class in D&D since 2000, and in Pathfinder, never. There is more to being a rogue than any single skill, but if they've said Sleight of Hand (the skill one uses for picking pockets in Pathfinder) will not be included, I haven't seen a reference to it. Unless someone can say where the information is coming from, You may just be perpetuating a worry over someone's poor assumption.
There are other games besides UO that allow stealing: video.
Stealth (hiding, silence), Disable Device (locks, traps), and Perception (spot, search, listen) are all traditional rogue skills even if Sleight of Hand doesn't make it in.
I have no issue with people trying to steal, as long as there are ways to defend against it. One might create a backpack with a combination of alarm and arcane mark so a non-owner who reaches in or touches it makes it shout "Thief!" and gets a glowing brand on their forehead.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keovar,
I haven't bought a D&D oriented hardcover book since way before 2000, so I wouldn't know. As you know, I only just discovered Pathfinder a few months back, so I couldn't tell you what's in that system or what isn't. That game systems (don't know who started it) felt compelled to change the name from thief to rogue demonstrates a desire to veer away from what thieves tended to do. Certainly, pick pocket was only one skill in a thief's repertoire, but often they were hiding in shadows, climbing the wall, picking the lock, disarming the trap, and backstabbing the guard or monster so they could get to the things they wanted to steal, whether that was in a chest or on someone's person. The majority of their skills simply aided in the acquisition of someone else's goods.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keovar,
This is a cut and paste from a discussion a while back entitled "Protectin' the Pad" and was where I had last seen something that sounded like picking pockets was out of PFO. If someone else has something more official on the topic, I'd love to see it.
Valandur Jan 26, 2013, 07:41 PM | FLAG | LIST
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I would love to see a pickpocket skill implemented. I've never seen it done well in a game. Being able to choose whether to go after coin or an items and if successful, the thief gets away with it without flags, escaping notice.
The more I think about it the more I'm beginning to believe that players need someplace that they can put things that can't be robbed. Ether their house or the bank. Many people play the same character for years and years and amass all sorts of items that if stolen, would be very hard, if not impossible to replace. (Things like in game event tokens, or prize tems. Ultra rare crafting materials)
Sebastian Hirsch Goblin Squad Member Jan 26, 2013, 10:28 PM | FLAG | LIST
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IIRC, the designers said pretty clearly noooooo to the idea. Sorry
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keovar,
I haven't bought a D&D oriented hardcover book since way before 2000, so I wouldn't know. As you know, I only just discovered Pathfinder a few months back, so I couldn't tell you what's in that system or what isn't. That game systems (don't know who started it) felt compelled to change the name from thief to rogue demonstrates a desire to veer away from what thieves tended to do. Certainly, pick pocket was only one skill in a thief's repertoire, but often they were hiding in shadows, climbing the wall, picking the lock, disarming the trap, and backstabbing the guard or monster so they could get to the things they wanted to steal, whether that was in a chest or on someone's person. The majority of their skills simply aided in the acquisition of someone else's goods.
You don't have to buy the books to know, since there's the Pathfinder SRD & another version I find more convenient to use. 3.0 and 3.5 D&D have them too.
They changed the name of the class at the beginning of 3rd edition D&D because the skills are not just about stealing, but also about scouting, spying, assassination, etc. 'Thief' is not only narrow, it gave a lot of players the idea that they should be jerks to their teammates and not suffer reprisals for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keovar,
This is a cut and paste from a discussion a while back entitled "Protectin' the Pad" and was where I had last seen something that sounded like picking pockets was out of PFO. If someone else has something more official on the topic, I'd love to see it.
Valandur Jan 26, 2013, 07:41 PM | FLAG | LIST
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+I would love to see a pickpocket skill implemented. I've never seen it done well in a game. Being able to choose whether to go after coin or an items and if successful, the thief gets away with it without flags, escaping notice.
The more I think about it the more I'm beginning to believe that players need someplace that they can put things that can't be robbed. Ether their house or the bank. Many people play the same character for years and years and amass all sorts of items that if stolen, would be very hard, if not impossible to replace. (Things like in game event tokens, or prize tems. Ultra rare crafting materials)
Sebastian Hirsch Goblin Squad Member Jan 26, 2013, 10:28 PM | FLAG | LIST
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+IIRC, the designers said pretty clearly noooooo to the idea. Sorry
"Goblin Squad Member" isn't GW staff, it's a title from someone who pledged to the tech demo Kickstarter. I have a Goblinworks RSS feed to tell me when there are new posts by Lisa Stevens, Ryan Dancey, Stephen Cheney, Lee Hammock, & Mark Kalmes, and I keep up with it a couple times a week at least.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've raised the whole pilfering/stealing question in several other threads before, and people always indicate it will not be an option, but as Keovar said, I've not seen anything 'official' around this.
It would be nice to have the option to play a skulk in the shadows, larceny type character, as well as have the option to have a DPS, dodge like a chipmunk on crack, two weapon fighting character.
Both use stealth, but for different reasons. One for theft and the other for the alpha strike. Another idea aside from the magical mouth one, would be to disable sneak attack for a few seconds after a stealing attempt and aslo force the character out of stealth upon a failed attempt. In that way, if the rogue fails his attempt to rob you, they appear on your screen (with an appropriate message) and lose their premier attack ability for a while. All squishy and ripe to pound upon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've raised the whole pilfering/stealing question in several other threads before, and people always indicate it will not be an option, but as Keovar said, I've not seen anything 'official' around this.
The closest thing I remember is a comment by Stephen Cheney on Disarm and removing things from another's inventory. The same logic may apply to pilfering/stealing. However, I could be completely wrong on this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf,
That's my thought as well, which means another potential variation of PvP will be rerouted into combat yet again.
Keovar,
I know what Goblin Squad members are. You asked where I got the idea that stealing wasn't going to be in the game. There it is. I never claimed that it came from a Dev, only that the guy I quoted said he had read or heard that the Devs said stealing was out.
I'm also aware that many versions of newer books can be obtained on-line. My point was that I haven't dealt with such texts in any format since before 2000.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What would a player be able to do to react to a thievery attempt that would be fun regardless of whether he won or lost?
Maybe if the pickpocket roll succeeds, the time it takes for the PC to notice it is missing is correlated to how much the roll exceeded the perception check.
So it might give the thief between say 5 and 60s to make a getaway IF successful. Or the thief has the 'Outlaw' or 'Criminal' flags visible to the target for this duration, giving the target a chance to respond.
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Goblin Squad Member
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DeciusBrutus,
I'm not sure about "fun", but then, most people who get killed by a much more skilled PvPer likely don't find much fun in it, but they will also be subject to loosing unthreaded items. I would suggest that you make getting away scott-free with stealing rather difficult. There should be a whole gradient of possible failure/success...tried but failed and were noticed, tried and failed and but weren't noticed, tried and succeeded and were noticed, tried and succeeded and weren't noticed.
Again, the process should also be rather lengthy - you have to get next to the person (which can be countered by simply walking away), you would have to target them and perhaps the item somehow, you need your stealing skill check to be successful, you need to avoid the target's and any nearby player or NPC's perception skill check to fail, and if any of this is detected, you get marked a criminal, which allows everyone in the area to freely attack you. Just like PvP, the target of the theft might not be skilled enough to take down the thief, but others nearby may be. This all sound pretty daunting for the thief, but I can guarantee you will have people who will take the skill simply for the challenge, even if the chance of success is small.
You could even limit the theft to not only small enough items to palm, but you could have only the ones "visible" being up for grabs (pardon the pun). Things on your belt, in a quiver, etc., but not stored in a sealed pack. I doubt the game will force us to be so realistic, but if you were going to easily grab and drink a potion in the heat of combat, you couldn't actually store it in the safe depths of your backpack - it would have to be handy, which means stealable.
If you put a size limit on the items that can be stolen, you've just made theft even more difficult than PvP looting, since it limits what kind of unthreaded item can be taken. These would likely be the consumable items that much of the crafting economy is going to be centered around and far easier to replace.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Hobs,
I recall somewhere you mentioned that you can not use stealth or hide in shadows in broad daylight or in the open ( ie city street).
That is unless stealth in such circumstances is in controlling the way a thief moves ( body language) in public. A highly mentally trained thief could casually blend into the crowd and become "disguised" just by the way he or she moves away.
This same ability could be employed by a pick pocket, in order to escape partial or even full detection of the act.
I'm a firm believer that a true thief, especially a Master Thief, needs to use a wide variety of skills and to use them in unison to produce the "perfect crime".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf,
My comment about not hiding or stealthing was in response to stealthing in many games equating to invisibility. I fully agree that there are people who know how to blend in and this would help - perhaps as a modifier of how many people were around you. Often, the person who looks/acts like they belong where they're at are overlooked.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What would a player be able to do to react to a thievery attempt that would be fun regardless of whether he won or lost?Maybe if the pickpocket roll succeeds, the time it takes for the PC to notice it is missing is correlated to how much the roll exceeded the perception check.
So it might give the thief between say 5 and 60s to make a getaway IF successful. Or the thief has the 'Outlaw' or 'Criminal' flags visible to the target for this duration, giving the target a chance to respond.
I think this is a pretty cool idea, if thief A succeeds in pickpocketing me, they should get a random non-equipped, non-threaded item from my inventory. I get an instant notification, so can begin the chase, but they have a short period based off the difference between their slight of hand and my perception, in which to run before their "thief/criminal flag" lights up and makes it legal for me to forcefully reacquire my goods. So a good thief will have to have both a high slight of hand, but also invest in evasion/stealth skills tree. This, hopefully requires enough investment to be good that they should not also be dps masters.
As for the different types of stealth, I also thought that was a good idea, I would love to see a stealth tree, the lower end of which has options such as camouflage, low level evasion, and sneak attacks. Camouflage makes you semi-transparent in wilderness areas or something (simulating blending in with the background). The higher end of the stealth tree would include Shadow Dancer type options...touching upon the magical.
What would a player be able to do to react to a thievery attempt that would be fun regardless of whether he won or lost?Maybe if the pickpocket roll succeeds, the time it takes for the PC to notice it is missing is correlated to how much the roll exceeded the perception check.
So it might give the thief between say 5 and 60s to make a getaway IF successful. Or the thief has the 'Outlaw' or 'Criminal' flags visible to the target for this duration, giving the target a chance to respond.
I think this is a pretty cool idea, if thief A succeeds in pickpocketing me, they should get a random non-equipped, non-threaded item from my inventory. I get an instant notification, so can begin the chase, but they have a short period based off the difference between their slight of hand and my perception, in which to run before their "thief/criminal flag" lights up and makes it legal for me to forcefully reacquire my goods. So a good thief will have to have both a high slight of hand, but also invest in evasion/stealth skills tree. This, hopefully requires enough investment to be good that they should not also be dps masters.
Sounds like the thief failed their roll, or didn't succeed by very much to be honest. A successful PP roll, if there aren't variations of success/failure, should result in the thief getting the item with no one the wiser, I would think. But I really don't believe pickpocket will be included in their skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds like the thief failed their roll, or didn't succeed by very much to be honest. A successful PP roll, if there aren't variations of success/failure, should result in the thief getting the item with no one the wiser, I would think. But I really don't believe pickpocket will be included in their skills.
Certainly makes sense, but yeah if non-detection were a high probability... theifs would not be fun to deal with. Players don't like not being able to counter or at least feel like they were given an opportunity to defend from something.
as far as the PVP analogy, no people don't like being killed, but most people aren't useless or doomed if they haven't trained enough. If you are killed in PVP, it means you traveled in too small numbers, under equiped, and/or were out-skilled.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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What would a player be able to do to react to a thievery attempt that would be fun regardless of whether he won or lost?
This is our concern. We'd like to include a pickpocketing system, but it's the kind of thing that's hard to make fun for the target, even on a detection.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What would a player be able to do to react to a thievery attempt that would be fun regardless of whether he won or lost?Maybe if the pickpocket roll succeeds, the time it takes for the PC to notice it is missing is correlated to how much the roll exceeded the perception check.
So it might give the thief between say 5 and 60s to make a getaway IF successful. Or the thief has the 'Outlaw' or 'Criminal' flags visible to the target for this duration, giving the target a chance to respond.
"You lost your pouch of gemstones" is a -loss- condition, and the pickpocket is done and over with; now it's possibly a fight. It isn't fun to learn that you lost a contest at the same time that you learn one has started.
PvP combat, on the other hand, won't result in a one-hit kill; there will be a chance to attempt to win, break away, or call for help before the contest is over. Any or all of the options can be made fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds like the thief failed their roll, or didn't succeed by very much to be honest. A successful PP roll, if there aren't variations of success/failure, should result in the thief getting the item with no one the wiser, I would think. But I really don't believe pickpocket will be included in their skills.What would a player be able to do to react to a thievery attempt that would be fun regardless of whether he won or lost?Maybe if the pickpocket roll succeeds, the time it takes for the PC to notice it is missing is correlated to how much the roll exceeded the perception check.
So it might give the thief between say 5 and 60s to make a getaway IF successful. Or the thief has the 'Outlaw' or 'Criminal' flags visible to the target for this duration, giving the target a chance to respond.
I think this is a pretty cool idea, if thief A succeeds in pickpocketing me, they should get a random non-equipped, non-threaded item from my inventory. I get an instant notification, so can begin the chase, but they have a short period based off the difference between their slight of hand and my perception, in which to run before their "thief/criminal flag" lights up and makes it legal for me to forcefully reacquire my goods. So a good thief will have to have both a high slight of hand, but also invest in evasion/stealth skills tree. This, hopefully requires enough investment to be good that they should not also be dps masters.
I would not like any PvP situation that makes defence impossible...as your suggestion does. To me, allowing master thieves that can indiscriminately steal from people with no chance at defence is not offering enough in player interaction and is no different that players being able to one-shot each other.
My suggestion allows thievery, which seems important to some, but also always gives the mark a chance to utilize their strengths to reacquire their goods. Winning the initial steal vs perception contest gives the thief more of a chance to get away...but does not insure it. It then becomes a contest of sneak/evade/speed (utilizing the environment) versus perception/speed/other...and finally, if the thief fails the second contest, a contest of combat. To me that adds quite a bit to player interaction.
EDIT: Oops, just as Decius said.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with both @Decius, @KitNyx, and @Stephen. It may work like a trapped door. If you detect the trap, you have options to deal with it. If you don't detect the trap, you suffer the consequences of setting it off. How would you be able to identify the maker of the trap to take revenge? If you can't have pickpockets and thieves you shouldn't have traps either. (If you had planned on having traps in the first place.)
I agree with both @Decius, @KitNyx, and @Stephen. It may work like a trapped door. If you detect the trap, you have options to deal with it. If you don't detect the trap, you suffer the consequences of setting it off. How would you be able to identify the maker of the trap to take revenge? If you can't have pickpockets and thieves you shouldn't have traps either. (If you had planned on having traps in the first place.)
I guess posion shouldn't be in the game either, the more powerful poisons likely wouldn't give you the chance to defend against them so they shouldn't have them either. For that mattr it might be a good idea to make characters with a level (power/skill) difference greater then 5 unable to attack each other, the weaker character is likely to be killed and wouldn't be able to defend theirselves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What would a player be able to do to react to a thievery attempt that would be fun regardless of whether he won or lost?This is our concern. We'd like to include a pickpocketing system, but it's the kind of thing that's hard to make fun for the target, even on a detection.
Wouldn't you just look at pick pocketing as a form of PVP?
Thief steals = winner
Thief gets norhing, but is not detected = draw
Thief steals, but is detected = TBD by next action
Thief gets nothing and is detected = Victim Wins
Thief gets caught and kills victim, murder flagged = Draw
Thief gets caught and is killed by victim = Thief loses
If you look at it this way, there is only one way for the thief to be the clear winner. So the victim "not having fun" isn't really a big concern if they consider the risk vs reward that the thief must deal with.
Besides, this is another example of a meaningful player interaction. It adds another "dark reality" to the PFO world that makes it more interesting for all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with both @Decius, @KitNyx, and @Stephen. It may work like a trapped door. If you detect the trap, you have options to deal with it. If you don't detect the trap, you suffer the consequences of setting it off. How would you be able to identify the maker of the trap to take revenge? If you can't have pickpockets and thieves you shouldn't have traps either. (If you had planned on having traps in the first place.)I guess posion shouldn't be in the game either, the more powerful poisons likely wouldn't give you the chance to defend against them so they shouldn't have them either. For that mattr it might be a good idea to make characters with a level (power/skill) difference greater then 5 unable to attack each other, the weaker character is likely to be killed and wouldn't be able to defend theirselves.
GW has pretty much done just that, except instead of making extreme power level differences negated from attacking eachother, they intended to negate the power differences, so that a new character being attacked by a vet, is not going to die so fast that he has no chance to at the very least run away. Poisons, I don't know, we don't know anything of the mechanical pro's and cons of a poison system, such a topic hasn't even come up that I know of yet. But yes if the poisons you are immagining are indeed. 'you have been struck by a poison arrow, you die', then yes poisons should be left out. If poisons are going to be their own kind of debuff etc... similar to how crits are expected to work, then they are far from relevant to the discussion.
The key difference between active and passive PVP is pretty notable. Actively you can take quite a bit of action to protect yourself, travel in groups, equip better or worse gear (worse gear to thread more of it and minimize the losses, better to lower odds of losing it at all). When we talk passive, we run into an arms race that becomes obnoxious.
IE in passive situation max defense option beats out max offense option.
Players are forced to max out defense option ASAP, thieves become a pain in the butt for brand new players who have not had time to max out this option, and the vets walk away scott free.
Second issue I see with theft, is how the counter measures could work. Lets say I happen to look at item X 10 seconds before and after it is stolen, I know who has been in proximity to steal from me before and after, thus I know who the thief is, but because he succeeded on his check, he does not get flagged a thief? Thus any attempt to get my item back will get ME flagged?
Every other aspect of the game, being flagged is a consequence of the action, not whether you were caught etc... Yet pickpocketing... can't have these absolutes, as well seeing a thief flag pop up on the guy next to you, pretty much alerts you immediately that you've been stolen from.
On top of that, you take out the one relaxed part of the game, Those who dislike PVP now have even worse problems in the cities and safezones, than the people out in hte damgerous areas.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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What would a player be able to do to react to a thievery attempt that would be fun regardless of whether he won or lost?This is our concern. We'd like to include a pickpocketing system, but it's the kind of thing that's hard to make fun for the target, even on a detection.Wouldn't you just look at pick pocketing as a form of PVP?
Thief steals = winner
Thief gets norhing, but is not detected = draw
Thief steals, but is detected = TBD by next action
Thief gets nothing and is detected = Victim Wins
Thief gets caught and kills victim, murder flagged = Draw
Thief gets caught and is killed by victim = Thief losesIf you look at it this way, there is only one way for the thief to be the clear winner. So the victim "not having fun" isn't really a big concern if they consider the risk vs reward that the thief must deal with.
Besides, this is another example of a meaningful player interaction. It adds another "dark reality" to the PFO world that makes it more interesting for all.
Thief steals = Fun for thief, unfun for victim
Thief gets norhing, but is not detected = Fun for thief, not fun for attempted victimThief steals, but is detected = Fun for thief, roughly fun as being attacked directly for victim
Thief gets nothing and is detected = Fun for thief, as fun as being attacked for victim
Thief gets caught and kills victim, murder flagged = Fun for thief, as fun as being attacked for victim
Thief gets caught and is killed by victim = Fun for thief, as fun as being attacked for victim
Nowhere is being stolen from any more fun than being attacked directly. If there isn't a significant chance of getting away with it (an option which results in less fun than open PvP), then nobody will steal and the effort put into implementing a theft system will be wasted, making other features worse by omission.
I think 'This is less fun than getting ganked' is a clear sign that it doesn't deserve finite resources to implement a theft system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thief steals = Fun for thief, unfun for victim
Thief gets norhing, but is not detected = Fun for thief, not fun for attempted victim
Thief steals, but is detected = Fun for thief, roughly fun as being attacked directly for victim
Thief gets nothing and is detected = Fun for thief, as fun as being attacked for victim
Thief gets caught and kills victim, murder flagged = Fun for thief, as fun as being attacked for victim
Thief gets caught and is killed by victim = Fun for thief, as fun as being attacked for victimNowhere is being stolen from any more fun than being attacked directly. If there isn't a significant chance of getting away with it (an option which results in less fun than open PvP), then nobody will steal and the effort put into implementing a theft system will be wasted, making other features worse by omission.
I think 'This is less fun than getting ganked' is a clear sign that it doesn't deserve...
Your agrument is built on a false premise that every result is fun for the thief, and nothing is fun for the potential victim of the thief.
For example, you have the situation where the thief gets caught and is killed, as still being fun for the thief but a nuisance for the victim.
That is an unlikely point of view to be held by most, perhaps 90% of players. Most would declare victory over the thieving bastard and tell all of his or her friends about it.
Likewise, you have the thief that gets noting and does not get caught, as being fun. Again, 90% of the thieves will look at that as a waste of time, and not fun, as you predict.
As a potential victim of theft, I would see it as fun, even if I have something stolen from me. The reason is, it adds to the flavor and realism of the world. If I want a world where my character will be safe from death and theft, I'd go to Hello Kitty Online.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with both @Decius, @KitNyx, and @Stephen. It may work like a trapped door. If you detect the trap, you have options to deal with it. If you don't detect the trap, you suffer the consequences of setting it off. How would you be able to identify the maker of the trap to take revenge? If you can't have pickpockets and thieves you shouldn't have traps either. (If you had planned on having traps in the first place.)
The difference is loosing an item is an automatic loose, equal in my book to being one-shot'ed in PvP. I only agree with the trap analogy if traps can one-shot someone, which I think they will try to avoid. If traps cannot one-shot someone, then I do not see the problem.
Being stolen from is a form of PvP. It should be treated as such. If someone cannot hit you without your knowledge, they should not allow theft without your knowledge. The system I described provides content for every person involved, in every incident. What changes is the chance the thief will get away. If the thief fails its theft attack, it is automatically flagged an aggressor like any other attack. If the thief succeeds, there is a short period between the time the theft occurs and the flag...so the thief has time to run and use stealth/hide skills prior to the flag being activated.
This system also makes an interesting botting deterrent...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm reminded of the similar problem with burglary/lockpicking. Both result in not-fun situations for the person whose pocket (or lock) is picked.
The solution I tried to venture for lockpicking/burglary was not well received, even though it seemed to make sense to me.
If the pickpocket succeeds what is stolen is not removed from the mark, but only is created by the system to reward the success. The danger is still there, the achievement is still there, the risk is still there, but the victim is unharmed.
In Dragonrealms thieves would purposely put what they did not mind losing in their bag expressly so the young thieves could get their practice. It was quite effective and plenty of fun, but it was a game where skills improved with use.
If the game system mimicked pickpocketing as everyone is envisioning it, but instead of seeing what its in the victims kit to be stolen, the successful pickpocket sees representations of what the victim has. If the pickpocket is successful he gets the item but the victim has lost nothing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your agrument is built on a false premise that every result is fun for the thief, and nothing is fun for the potential victim of the thief.For example, you have the situation where the thief gets caught and is killed, as still being fun for the thief but a nuisance for the victim.
That is an unlikely point of view to be held by most, perhaps 90% of players. Most would declare victory over the thieving bastard and tell all of his or her friends about it.
Likewise, you have the thief that gets noting and does not get caught, as being fun. Again, 90% of the thieves will look at that as a waste of time, and not fun, as you predict.
As a potential victim of theft, I would see it as fun, even if I have something stolen from me. The reason is, it adds to the flavor and realism of the world. If I want a world where my character will be safe from death and theft, I'd go to Hello Kitty Online.
Getting caught does not equal death, it begins an entirely different challenge that the rogue might very well be more skilled at.
Being subject to theft without my knowledge does not make the world more realistic...it highlights how unrealistic the UI is. Say I find a valuable gem...I would stash it where I know I would feel someone taking it, tie it to my...other valuables...
I do not have that option in PfO. That lack of option becomes blatantly obvious in cases like this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the pickpocket succeeds what is stolen is not removed from the mark, but only is created by the system to reward the success. The danger is still there, the achievement is still there, the risk is still there, but the victim is unharmed.
I am all for the threat of harm...only after I am given the opportunity and fail to defend myself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the game system mimicked pickpocketing as everyone is envisioning it, but instead of seeing what its in the victims kit to be stolen, the successful pickpocket sees representations of what the victim has. If the pickpocket is successful he gets the item but the victim has lost nothing.
There's a word for that in MMO's, it's called duping, and it is generally in the from of a discovered and abused glitch that destroys a games economy bad enough to require a full out rollback. Turning any form of PVP into a faucet to create items is a ridiculously bad idea, and requires the items that can be duplicated to be of such insignificant value and/or the frequency of making a "theft" attempt to be so scarce, that it is a waste of resources to implement.
The issue with theft isn't that there is loss, it is that defending yourself from it is relliant entirely upon passive modifiers, which leaves one in a completely helpless feeling.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being stolen from is a form of PvP. It should be treated as such. If someone cannot hit you without your knowledge, they should not allow theft without your knowledge. The system I described provides content for every person involved, in every incident. What changes is the chance the thief will get away. If the thief fails its theft attack, it is automatically flagged an aggressor like any other attack. If the thief succeeds, there is a short period between the time the theft occurs and the flag...so the thief has time to run and use stealth/hide skills prior to the flag being activated.
This system also makes an interesting botting deterrent...
Issue with the two "in bold" statements...
The whole idea of theft is that it is done without the victim's knowledge. Common sense still applies, even in games.
The second "in bold", same issue. If the Thief is successful, he or she is successful. There is no flagging because the success did not trigger a flag.
If there is going to be theft in this game, then there has to be at least one way where it is clearly successful. If there is no theft in this game, unless the result of killing first, then the same people that whine about having something stolen from them will whine about being killed first, and then losing their stuff.
If GW does not put theft into the game, as a rsult of it being "unfun for the victim", well I'm afraid they are missiing the point of PFO being mostly about PVP. That and also the fact that not all PVP is simply combat.