Arcane Trickster

[wolfen]

So quick backstory
Often have games that run from lvl 1-20+ so not just looking at low to mid level ideas. Please do not bring any comments of broken means no fun or anything like that. I know this combination of used properly and rules permit is a little powerful but I like the concept of a rogue/wizard like back in the old systems.

So Arcane Trickster states on its final ability Surprise Spell "At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are f lat-footed. This additional damage
only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage."

So with this in mind I am curious on if this ability would work on spells such as Black Tentacles, or if I used say magic missle or scorching ray which can target multiple characters (Say for the scenario they are all flat-footed) would each creature take the SA damage or just 1 of my choice?

So those are just some general spell Ideas I was curious on if anyone has had this sort of question posed before all insight would be appreciated.

[Harark]

I believe if all the targets are flat-footed then they would all take the SA damage. That's how sneak attack works with weapons, why wouldn't it work that way with spells?

[Darklone]

Makes quickened Sound Burst fun.

Current build of my wife: Catfolk Ninja3/Witch3/AT... Looking forward how it's working out. Not enough hexes... but mucho sneak attack.

[A highly regarded expert]

FAQ wrote:

How does the Surprise Spells class feature of the Arcane Trickster prestige class work with spells like magic missile and fireball?

The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.

[wolfen]

YOu state that it only works once per spell but you give no proof of this. The actual book states as long as the opponent is flat-footed the damage may be added. From what i have seen this would be no different than in old 3.5 with a rogue using many shot to hit multiple targets. Each target took sneak attack separately but if target on 1 opponent it only occurred once. So following that as long as each missile targeted a separate opponent each being flat-footed would it not sneak attack?

[Corlindale]

It's a quote from the official FAQ, so in that sense it IS proof. It simply means you generally want to use Surprise Spells with your big area attacks, the ability is still very nice.

[Isil-zha]

wolfen, he quoted the FAQ

[A highly regarded expert]

5d4+5+7d6 is still a lot of damage for a 1st level spell. The reason (as I see it,) is that it doesn't require an attack roll.

[opinion:] Spells that require attack rolls (Scorching Ray is the one everybody argues over) can add the damage to each ray, IMO. I think the "volley rule" from 3.x is unnecessarily restrictive. 4d6+7d6x3 isn't a game breaker at the levels at which you can attempt it.

Telekinesis, OTOH can hurl objects, but the caster cannot add precision damage because it is the object(s), not the spell, that does the damage.[/opinion]

I discuss that in my guide, but you should make sure you've talked it over with your GM beforehand. People all see it differently, and Paizo hasn't nailed it all down.

[Isil-zha]

A highly regarded expert wrote:

[opinion:]Telekinesis, OTOH can hurl objects, but the caster cannot add precision damage because it is the object(s), not the spell, that does the damage.[/opinion]

[opinion]by that reasoning if you handle them as thrown weapons or projectiles every rogue using telekinesis (from whatever source) could apply sneak damage to those projectiles even without utilising the arcane trickster feature. They still require attack roles and if the damage doesn't come from the spell but mundane means the rogue should get his precision damage (if applicable) because he is the one aiming those projectiles after all[/opinion]

that said, I wouldn't argue along those lines and I'd say that the damage from telekinesis is an effect of the spell, albeit maybe a secondary one.

[A highly regarded expert]

Throwing things is not casting a spell. Adding precision damage to magical energy is what a trickster does. At the capstone, he can do it with spells that don't even have an attack roll.

Or, you can say he throws 15 bricks at once, and is so skilled that they all do sneak damage, too. That's broken, and there is plenty of precedent in PF and 3x for saying that.

[Isil-zha]

Telekinesis is pretty broken to begin with. I'm not arguing that point. I'm just saying that you should get your sneak attack on one of the telekinesis projectiles and not open the can of worms of calling them not part of the spells effect.

[A highly regarded expert]

Maybe so. Until PF comes out and gives specific rules about this stuff, it's up to the GM. I just called it like I see it, and that's how I'd run it if I was GMing somebody who tried to do that.

Of course, it's never happened, so...LOL! I actually like these discussions of corner cases, and seeing what other players think. Playing it your way wouldn't be all that broken, considering what some people have said about the spell.

[Isil-zha]

and that "you" was a general you, I didn't try to tell you how to run your game, just in case that wasn't clear. English is such an inferior language ;)

[A highly regarded expert]

Isil-zha wrote:

and that "you" was a general you, I didn't try to tell you how to run your game, just in case that wasn't clear. English is such an inferior language ;)

True.

I've spoken English all my life, and I still can't make it do what I want. LOL

[Blueluck]

Something you could do with an Arcane Trickster (Rogue/Wizard) better than just about any other character is to use traps. Use as in create and use against enemies. Take a look at the rules for making traps and see what I mean - if that seems like fun to you.