Crowdforge the initial pantheon!

[Keovar]

In the now-hidden second crowdforger poll, GW pitted the addition of extra deities against a pet system (animal companions, familiars, etc.) and a system of fast travel. I think the first set of nine deities should be crowdforged before we're asked how badly we want more added.

I propose that GW should create a set of up to nine crowdforger questions, one for each alignment, listing the deities of that alignment which are appropriate to the River Kingdoms. I understand that Iomedae (LG) and Asmodeus (LE) may be locked in for their slots due to the existing lore of the Crusader Road region, but a vote for the favourites of those alignments would still be useful as a priority list for future development.

With the list of deities, a brief description of each, or a link to the appropriate PathfinderWiki.com article, should be provided.

Just for fun; a 'hymn' to Calistria. ;)

[JakBlitz]

I would hope that Torag would get some love soon. My Dwarven Paladin will have to worship someone else until then.

[Alexander_Damocles]

Abadar. Everything needs more Abadar.

[Being]

Gozreh lives. Of the unspoken, Gozreh's friend Erastil should not be forgotten.

[Nightdrifter]

Just for reference at the Kickstarter countdown party they listed the 9 initial gods (see here: http://pfofan.com/index.php/item/52-pfo-kickstarter-qa-countdown if you missed it). Assuming I haven't made a mistake, these 9 are:

LG - Iomedae
NG - Shelyn
CG - Desna
LN - Abadar
N - Gozreh
CN - Gorum
LE - Asmodeus
NE - Norgorber
CE - Lahmashtu

[Alydos]

I shall then be Apsu,
for I am the first.
I am the primeval,
who was of Heaven
and of Material
before they had names,
for I created them with Chaos.
I then shall go
and I shall end Death.

[Kusuriurite]

I'm assuming pharasma is in there too since players carry her mark

[Nightdrifter]

Ya, the list doesn't make much sense in regards to Pharasma. *shrug*

[Keovar]

I think there was a lot of disappointment in the NG, CG, and TN slots. Sarenrae, Cayden Cailean, and Pharasma seemed to be popular for each, respectively. Erastil and Torag are popular, but being LG they bump into the problem that the good NPC-run starter town is devoted to Iomedae, so she's locked in for LG just as Asmodeus is for LE. Even for the slots that are locked in, it's still good to know which ones are the most popular for each alignment slot, so when the next set of 9 is proposed, they can base selections on that.

That's the purpose of this thread, asking GW to crowdforge the alignment slots where possible in the initial 9, and the next most popular in the following 9, etc.

There should also be a 'conversion' system, so clerics, paladins, etc. can just pick what matches their target alignment for now, and move to the deity they actually want if/when it gets added later.

[JDNYC]

It's just that it doesn't make sense not to count Pharasma since we already know that there will be mechanics that significantly tie to her. Namely the whole resurrection thing and threading items to yourself. And the whole twice marked thing. So, yeah. Odd not to have her as one of the nine.

[Kusuriurite]

Granted id be more concerned about them being available by launch of the full game

[Mbando]

Our chartered company is dedicated to Peace Through Vigilance, so eventually we hope the celestial dragon is officially in-game. That being said, until such time we'll RP it, no-doubt using Iomedae the Just as a stand in deity.

[Elorebaen]

Gyronna and Hanspur should also be considered, especially as we will be in the River Kingdoms.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Elorebaen wrote:

Gyronna and Hanspur should also be considered, especially as we will be in the River Kingdoms.

Yeah, but ... they suck. As evil deities they have some local fame, but aren't all that interesting for player characters. Well even if they are interesting to some, it's hardly something worth the art assets.

It doesn't sound very nice, but I can see kingdoms wanting to build temples to deities like Gorum, Erastil and Iomedae, temples to minor deities doesn't seem to something required by a lot of players. Of course a shrine of Gyronna isn't much more than a pile of stones with a gem on top (amber? ).

[Imbicatus]

I don't think we need to be too tied to the river kingdoms for deity selection since it is assumed your character has come to the river kingdoms from elsewhere on Golarion. I know my main is going to be a Dwarf from Osirion and will likely be a follower of Irori.

[Gloreindl]

Keovar wrote:

I think there was a lot of disappointment in the NG, CG, and TN slots. Sarenrae, Cayden Cailean, and Pharasma seemed to be popular for each, respectively. Erastil and Torag are popular, but being LG they bump into the problem that the good NPC-run starter town is devoted to Iomedae, so she's locked in for LG just as Asmodeus is for LE. Even for the slots that are locked in, it's still good to know which ones are the most popular for each alignment slot, so when the next set of 9 is proposed, they can base selections on that.

That's the purpose of this thread, asking GW to crowdforge the alignment slots where possible in the initial 9, and the next most popular in the following 9, etc.

There should also be a 'conversion' system, so clerics, paladins, etc. can just pick what matches their target alignment for now, and move to the deity they actually want if/when it gets added later.

A very interesting idea, and one I hope gets looked at as possible. +1 for thinking of it!

I have to admit that the idea of Iomedae as the LG deity strikes me as odd, as Erastil ("Old Deadeye") is the more common LG deity worshiped in the River Kingdoms, Brevoy and the other nearby lands, at least those not evil. Iomedae is more of a western and southern Deity, at least in the materials I have read such as the King Maker AP, the Inner Sea Guide, the Deities and Magic guide, the Gazetteer, and others dealing with the River Kingdoms area, but then again, PFO isn't PFRPG I guess.

[randomwalker]

@LG: Iomedae must be first choice because she is the goddess of valour and battle against evil (ie paladins). Erastil is mainly a farming and hunting god, not for heroics and crusades. He would be the patron of choice for many settlements though and should be there when settlements start spawning.

@expanded patheons: why the assumption that there must be an equal number of deities for each alignment? "the next nine" could for me well be "the next four" (erastil, callistria, pharasma, + some love for wizards or monks)

[Keovar]

Iomedae and Asmodeus are locked in because of the lore already developed for the Crusader Road. I think it would still be good to vote on the LG and LE deities so they can see which ones they might add next.

I don't suppose there's necessarily a reason the pantheon would need to be expanded in sets of nine, it just seemed like they wanted to give options for each alignment. If deities were added purely by overall popularity, I think the pantheon would grow rather lopsided.

Anyway... I'm hoping GW will see this and consider letting us crowdforge the starting pantheon, and provide a conversion system for people to change later if a more fitting option is added. If you agree, please favourite the original post, as Nihimon is collecting a list.

[Elorebaen]

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Elorebaen wrote:

Gyronna and Hanspur should also be considered, especially as we will be in the River Kingdoms.

Yeah, but ... they suck. As evil deities they have some local fame, but aren't all that interesting for player characters. Well even if they are interesting to some, it's hardly something worth the art assets.

It doesn't sound very nice, but I can see kingdoms wanting to build temples to deities like Gorum, Erastil and Iomedae, temples to minor deities doesn't seem to something required by a lot of players. Of course a shrine of Gyronna isn't much more than a pile of stones with a gem on top (amber? ).

I'm not sure in what sense you mean "suck." But I am most interested, because they are part of the local environment. We are in the Rover Kingdoms afterall.

I imagine they wouldn't be a priority, but I think they should be on "the list" as it were.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Elorebaen wrote:

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Elorebaen wrote:

Gyronna and Hanspur should also be considered, especially as we will be in the River Kingdoms.

Yeah, but ... they suck. As evil deities they have some local fame, but aren't all that interesting for player characters. Well even if they are interesting to some, it's hardly something worth the art assets.

It doesn't sound very nice, but I can see kingdoms wanting to build temples to deities like Gorum, Erastil and Iomedae, temples to minor deities doesn't seem to something required by a lot of players. Of course a shrine of Gyronna isn't much more than a pile of stones with a gem on top (amber? ).

I'm not sure in what sense you mean "suck." But I am most interested, because they are part of the local environment. We are in the Rover Kingdoms afterall.

I imagine they wouldn't be a priority, but I think they should be on "the list" as it were.

After running Kingmaker for my group, well I don't want to spoiler anything, but the motivation for characters affiliated with them was not really understandable for me and my players.

There are plenty of evil gods, and it's usually rather easy to explain the motivation of clerics and worshipers. When it comes to those two, I feel that whenever they or their worshipers do something nasty the motivation is pretty bananas.
But yeah, it is just my personal (heavily biased) opinion (that clerics of Gyronna should be killed in sight).

[Bluddwolf]

I m not finding in the lore, a "Neutral" centered, deity for bandits or thieves in general. Bessarabia is the closest, but she is almost strictly for Pirates. Unless we can be pirates on the rivers, in the River Kingdom, it won't make much sense.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Bluddwolf wrote:

I m not finding in the lore, a "Neutral" centered, deity for bandits or thieves in general. Bessarabia is the closest, but she is almost strictly for Pirates. Unless we can be pirates on the rivers, in the River Kingdom, it won't make much sense.

Stealing from others seems pretty chaotic to me but when it comes to gods, your choice is indeed quite limited. Gorum could be an option for bandits, but not so much for thieves. Norgober is known as the god of thieves, killers and spies, and he is neutral evil.

[Being]

Bluddwolf wrote:

I m not finding in the lore, a "Neutral" centered, deity for bandits or thieves in general. Bessarabia is the closest, but she is almost strictly for Pirates. Unless we can be pirates on the rivers, in the River Kingdom, it won't make much sense.

Possibly Calistria (CN) goddess of trickery, lust, revenge? favored weapon: whip

[Richter Bones]

Being wrote:

Possibly Calistria (CN) goddess of trickery, lust, revenge? favored weapon: whip

If I was going to make a pimp, she'd be my god.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Being wrote:

Bluddwolf wrote:

I m not finding in the lore, a "Neutral" centered, deity for bandits or thieves in general. Bessarabia is the closest, but she is almost strictly for Pirates. Unless we can be pirates on the rivers, in the River Kingdom, it won't make much sense.

Possibly Calistria (CN) goddess of trickery, lust, revenge? favored weapon: whip

Richter Bones wrote:

Being wrote:

Possibly Calistria (CN) goddess of trickery, lust, revenge? favored weapon: whip

If I was going to make a pimp, she'd be my god.

Well she does have sacred prostitutes, and depending on the region of Golaron her temples are pretty much brothels. Which could be challenging to incorporate. (Incidentally a brothel is one of the better buildings in the Kingmaker adventure path.)

[Andius]

I agree with the major premise of this idea. Personally I think they should just have a poll where everyone votes for the deity or maybe two deities (Given Destiny's Twin) that they want to follow on their characters, and they take the most popular deity from each alignment.

I personally don't want people who aren't planning to worship a Neutral Good deity to vote on who that deity is.

They aren't the ones who will have to worship the god of art and beauty rather than healing and the sun. I am.

[randomwalker]

Trying to approach this from portfolio rather than the 'compass' and seeing if there is indeed a 'god for every archetype'. What I get is

Paladin: Iomedae (LG)
Druid: Gozreh (N)
Monk: Iori (LN)
Bard: Shelyn (NG), Norgober (NE), Desna (CG)
Wizard: Nethys (N), Urgathoa (NE) for necromancers, Iori (LN)
Sorcerers: depending on bloodlines
Ranger: Erastil (LG), Gozreh (N), Lamashtu (CE), Cayden (CG), etc.
Rogue: Norgober (NE), Callistria (CN), Desna(CG), etc.
Warrior: Iomedae (LG), Gorum (CN), Zon-Kuthon (LE), Cayden (CG), Torag (LN), most others
Clerics: obviously any

Traders and Rulers: Adabar (LN), Asmodeus (LE), Erastil (LG)
Smiths and Dwarves: Torag (LG)
Farmers and Hunters: Erastil (LG)

The problem with the 'starting nine' is Wizards and Monks, and to a lesser degree crafters. Pharasma missing seems less of a problem to me.

[Keovar]

Andius wrote:

I agree with the major premise of this idea. Personally I think they should just have a poll where everyone votes for the deity or maybe two deities (Given Destiny's Twin) that they want to follow on their characters, and they take the most popular deity from each alignment.

I personally don't want people who aren't planning to worship a Neutral Good deity to vote on who that deity is.

They aren't the ones who will have to worship the god of art and beauty rather than healing and the sun. I am.

I don't know that this should be about future character choices. I am unlikely to play clerics and paladins, and the other core classes don't have to pick any matron or patron. Still, I'm a KS supporter and a future customer with a vested interest in making the game a world I will enjoy being a part of.

My PFS ranger & druid follow the "Green Faith" which is focused on nature as a whole, not a deity.
My wizard doesn't mess with any of the powers at all, but just tries to help people because they're people, and explores because learning is interesting.

Voting as a player, I'd read the descriptions of the options available and vote for the ones I think would be most fun to see represented in the game.

Lawful Good ----- Neutral Good -- Chaotic Good
Lawful Neutral -- True Neutral ---- Chaotic Neutral
Lawful Evil ------- Neutral Evil ----- Chaotic Evil

[Saint Caleth]

No matter how they decide the initial gods there are going to be some people who are going to have to pick an obviously incorrect deity for their character background and concept for purely mechanical reasons.

If GW is as smart as I assume they are they will have implemented an adequate selection if not all of the Core deities by release and given everyone from early enrollment a free chance to switch to the correct god so the inevitable breaking of WYSIWYG should be short lived.

[Keovar]

Saint Caleth wrote:

an adequate selection if not all of the Core deities by release and given everyone from early enrollment a free chance to switch to the correct god so the inevitable breaking of WYSIWYG should be short lived.

They're going to implement one of each alignment to start, adding more later.

I think a 'conversion' system would have value for the game as a whole, not just as a patch to an incomplete pantheon. Perhaps characters would get one free conversion* and after that you get some sort of quest to change. It could make for some interesting stories.

*Not only would the free conversion cover those forced to pick a deity they didn't favour based on alignment, it could cover those who started out just going with what their parents and/or home culture did, who then thought more deeply about the topic as they experienced the world on their own.

[Jiminy]

Bluddwolf wrote:

I m not finding in the lore, a "Neutral" centered, deity for bandits or thieves in general. Bessarabia is the closest, but she is almost strictly for Pirates. Unless we can be pirates on the rivers, in the River Kingdom, it won't make much sense.

Depending on the type of thief you plan on playing: Calistria if you're the bandit type or Sivanah if you're the explorer type.

If I end up with a more neutral leaning rogue, one of these will be my choice.

[IronVanguard]

I agree there should be a conversion system regardless.
Kinda unfair if you decide your cleric now wants to follow someone else, but the game won't let you, forcing you to follow the current one or reroll.

I'm actually worried that everyone assumes this is gonna be locked, rather than changeable with a quest or some such.

I also hope non-divine casters can choose, and change, deities. Or choose none, of course. And maybe get items to represent that, like wearable symbols or some such.
Lots of people in Golarian are followers, but not clerics, and no reason they can't represent that.

[Being]

Perhaps when a new deity is ready each devotee should receive a 'vision' in which the current deity introduces the new deity and gives an option to the character to choose which he or she will follow?