Goblin Squad Member
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I am the forum rep of a secretive company of very lawful evil assassins. I am also trying to establish a hub on the side that is both directly tied to said assassins' company, as well as creating a broader and healthier underground community for PFO.
Now that's the "evil" part to your question. As far as "style", see if this whets your palette: link.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It all depends on how they do the alignments. If evil is simple hey he PKs everything that moves for no reason I dont want a part in that. Me and a friends are planning on founding a NE or LE charter company called the bloody hand that will be raiding PC villages and caravans. And acting as behind the lines fighters for any kingdom that wishes to hire us on. But if being evil is just hey the game mechanics are going to shit on you there im not so sure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We are going to put together a LE chartered company. We will be an organized force, and I believe that we will be able to have diversity enough to accommodate not only PvPers, but also resource gatherers, crafters, merchants, etc. As a lawful company, we would not promote PKing everything that moves.
Our thread is taking shape here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... What fun will there be if we don't have any villains!
Solid point there, Dak. Without a magnificent villain how could there be a notable hero? What story have you read without falling asleep that was not riddled with conflict with a profound anti-hero? Which tragedy gave anguish where there was no fault?
There must be evil in the world, if only to keep the Good from becoming the bad guy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd definitely be interested in this. I roleplayed a Banite (follower of the LE god Bane) in a D&D Forgotten Realms based PW for several years.
I am not a fan of Chaotic Evil PKing everything using half a brain. I am into Cold, calculated evil. Think Darth Vader, Mafia, Corporations. These organizations usually still have a very strict code however.
I've also had a lot of thoughts about doing a LN mercenary company. A group that will fight for whomever or whatever cause if the price is right, yet still sticks to a rigid code and contract. Much like the Black Company if anyone is familiar with Glen Cook's novels.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can I ask a very pointed question?
What /specific in-game behaviors/ are you lawful evil fans planning to engage in?
I enjoy LE a great deal, and I would love to see LE communities in game, but I can't even begin to imagine how a game engine would adjudicate morality with enough granularity to differentiate LE from LG.
Do you expect the game to permit slavery? Are your reprehensible intentions purely economic, and if so, how do you intend to avoid Goblinworks' regulatory plans? If you intend to engage in murder at all, how will you communicate to the community and the software that you are not doing so at random?
These questions are honest; your slice of the community is precisely positioned to illustrate what I see as the greatest mystery of the description of Pathfinder Online to date. To wit: I can not begin to imagine how they will adjudicate alignment and griefing with sufficient granularity that you and your fellows will avoid being reported and banned into oblivion, or, on the other hand, how you will be able to realize the flavor of your organizations when the game engine does not acknowledge you as evil /enough/.
I'm curious as to whether you have considered these challenges.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nemo_the_Lost
When I'm playing Pathfinder (the table top) I generally tend to view the Lawful discriptor has having to seperate meanings. I either means you hold to the laws of the land, or, you hold to your own personal code of conduct.
When I play lawful evil characters, I tend towards the latter of those two.
I think any assassin who never breaks or backs down from a contract is Lawful Evil. He is doing something (taking a life) that is evil. However he is remaining within his own personal code of conduct.
My Chartered Company (the Bloody Hand mentioned by Phyllian) will do just that. We are going to do lots of evil things. Very evil things. But we have a set of rules and tentants that those in our Company will be required to follow. These rules will, hopefully, prevent what most consider 'griefing' and allow us to play the game how we want.
Now I come from EVE Online, I have no qualms about killing or being killed. It's one of the things I apprecaite about the game. I realize that a lot of people don't share this opinion. I realize I'm probably going to get more than one report filed against me and my company for "griefing". I'm just taking it on good faith that GW will be able to fairly delineate the difference between our way of playing the game, and how others expect us to act.
As far as mechanics goes. If I end up rapidly decending to Chaotic as opposed to Lawful evil, then so be it, but I will continue to enforce what I view as Lawful conduct amoungst my company.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The alignment system has got me more worried than anything else in the game. Seriously, its going to have to be the most elegant system designed or its going to come off as ham-handed, overbearing, and completely immersion breaking.
I just don't see how they are going to allow evil players to play evil with any sophistication. Evil can be charming, subtle, and clever but in every mmorpg game it only comes off as boorish thugery.
For example they mentioned trading with an evil player will cause a good character to shift alignment? How would they pull that off? Would the good player be unaware of this or is a warning going to pop-up telling him he is about to trade with an evil player? Click yes to proceed. Do evil players walk around with different colored names. All of that sounds awful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From everything I have read so far they have not described a way to actually become more good, or to put it more precisely "less evil".
There have been plenty of examples of things a character can do to drift toward chaotic and/or evil, but not so much the other way around. I'll be interested to hear more about this. I agree that it is going to be difficult to design a good, functioning system for alignment.
On another note, I am pretty sure one of mains will be an Asmodeus worshiping mage with a thirst for power. Should be fun. =)
The alignment system has got me more worried than anything else in the game. Seriously, its going to have to be the most elegant system designed or its going to come off as ham-handed, overbearing, and completely immersion breaking.
I just don't see how they are going to allow evil players to play evil with any sophistication. Evil can be charming, subtle, and clever but in every mmorpg game it only comes off as boorish thugery.
For example they mentioned trading with an evil player will cause a good character to shift alignment? How would they pull that off? Would the good player be unaware of this or is a warning going to pop-up telling him he is about to trade with an evil player? Click yes to proceed. Do evil players walk around with different colored names. All of that sounds awful.
It'll be interesting seeing how they handle issues like this. It all comes down to making the game recognize actions in the right context, giving the players the chance to actually play their alignment without it being an ordeal that just pisses everyone off.
Form what's been said so far knowing what someone's alignment is wont be as simple as "looking" at them, or them having a different colored name (unless they have an active flag). But questions like if I'm a criminal in one hex, will I still show up with that flag if I journey to another hex that's not allied or associated with the hex where I committed the crime? Little things like that will become pretty big concerns for people who intend on playing an evil alignment.
Will the NPC guards know someone's alignment if they haven't broken any laws or done anything in that hex?
Will word of a criminal act instantly spread throughout the world, or will your actions and reputation be the only clue until you actually do something?
Even though I don't plan on playing an evil alignment I'm very interested in seeing how things such as these are handled
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Goblin Squad Member
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Basically, read the American Declaration of Independence. It's my hope to either directly, or, more ideally, indirectly be responsible for everything His Majesty King Charles III was accused of. ;)Can I ask a very pointed question?
What /specific in-game behaviors/ are you lawful evil fans planning to engage in?
...You mean George, right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Basically, read the American Declaration of Independence. It's my hope to either directly, or, more ideally, indirectly be responsible for everything His Majesty King Charles III was accused of. ;)
Jerry, I am making a note of you now, because this is a great answer* and I want to keep track of you so I can follow up on your experience after launch.
For what it's worth, I am rooting for you.
(*Well, except for your knowledge of the history of the British monarchy)
And of course, the settlement of Shadow Haven is more than willing to accept ethically-challenged academics, artistes and accumulators of wealth!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The alignment system has got me more worried than anything else in the game. Seriously, its going to have to be the most elegant system designed or its going to come off as ham-handed, overbearing, and completely immersion breaking.
I just don't see how they are going to allow evil players to play evil with any sophistication. Evil can be charming, subtle, and clever but in every mmorpg game it only comes off as boorish thugery.
For example they mentioned trading with an evil player will cause a good character to shift alignment? How would they pull that off? Would the good player be unaware of this or is a warning going to pop-up telling him he is about to trade with an evil player? Click yes to proceed. Do evil players walk around with different colored names. All of that sounds awful.
I think this meme really deserves its own thread. I think the rules must apply different between evil characters than is projected to work between goods and between good and evil (and neutral).
And evil character cannot take an aignment hit for being evil, it would be a buff. Evil on evil PKs shouldn't be the same as evil on good.
It seems clear to me that the rules on the good side will be quite different from the rules on the evil side, and really this needs to be explored and worked out before we get much further.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I see it there are basically three (extreme) modes of play if you are "evil" (and of course many shades within).
First: the open evil.
You do what you please, be it theft or murder or, most likely, both against anyone and everyone that you think you get away with. You don't care if your character is flagged a criminal. You mainly hang out in the cut throat shambles of settlements that support characters from all alignments (ie only evils go there). You likely work alone or as a member of a small band.
Second: the underhand evil
You hide behind a neutral alignment. You avoid having the criminal flag but you con, steal, blackmail and, most of all betray, others to get what you want. You are possibly member of a large chartered company, a band of mercenaries, ready to switch sides at a moments notice.
Third: the evil empire aka the outside evil
You do what needs to be done for the good of your kingdom, no qualms no holds. You declare war on peaceful small communities and take their stuff if it pleases you but you are bound by a code of rigid laws or maybe even honor. You are possibly member of a large and thriving kingdom, under the wary scrutiny of your neighbors, often accused in public.
As I see it there are basically three (extreme) modes of play if you are "evil" (and of course many shades within).
First: the open evil.
You do what you please, be it theft or murder or, most likely, both against anyone and everyone that you think you get away with. You don't care if your character is flagged a criminal. You mainly hang out in the cut throat shambles of settlements that support characters from all alignments (ie only evils go there). You likely work alone or as a member of a small band.Second: the underhand evil
You hide behind a neutral alignment. You avoid having the criminal flag but you con, steal, blackmail and, most of all betray, others to get what you want. You are possibly member of a large chartered company, a band of mercenaries, ready to switch sides at a moments notice.Third: the evil empire aka the outside evil
You do what needs to be done for the good of your kingdom, no qualms no holds. You declare war on peaceful small communities and take their stuff if it pleases you but you are bound by a code of rigid laws or maybe even honor. You are possibly member of a large and thriving kingdom, under the wary scrutiny of your neighbors, often accused in public.
Best description so far MicMan. I will be playing an Evil Gnome so I can't wait to see how challenging it will be espicially since somehow they say we will have a social rating or something that follows us.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, the alignment system.
As far as the devs said, being openly evil and thus flagged as a criminal is not at all easy.
Other players may attack you without consequences and may even benefit from such an attack if a bounty is on your head.
You will be attacked on sight by NPCs of good and neutral settlements.
You are therefore limited in where you can train your skills and buy your stuff and it has been said that these facilities will be suboptimal in evil settlements when compared to neutral/good (especially lawful good) settlements.
So the option is there, but only the truly dedicated will likely take it for long. The others redeem themselves before long, making all who endure this style of play for a long time the stuff of epics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am planning a Lawful Evil character, based in (and hopefully running) a lawful neutral settlement. More the manipulating things to my own ends evil than murdering babies kind of evil. I imagine my in game actions will translate into a LN aligmnent, but my roleplay interactions should hopefully allow the evil side to show through.
I'll have to see how their alignment system works in practice, but from a role-play standpoint, I'd really like to play a LE or NE character.
You will be attacked on sight by NPCs of good and neutral settlements.
Have you seen where a Dev has come out and said that this is the case? I've not seen this said anywhere. I know Ryan mentioned that your alignment won't just show up openly for all to see, but several roles do have forms of detect spells like detect evil, detect alignment etc.. If you've seen where a Dev has stated this, I would love to see it.