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True, but you don't need to take your caterer on a day trip to the museum, do you... ;-)That's pretty unambiguous. Why is a cook being invited into VC briefings, sent on voyages to Tian Xia, and visiting the Blakros Museum?Well, while the players probably don't mind eating trail rations 3 times a day, every day, all day, I'm sure that after 8 weeks of eating treebark in the mawangi expanse that their characters would gladly give up an extra share of the loot for some waffles.
The more bodies to throw at that infernal place, the better.
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That's pretty unambiguous. Why is a cook being invited into VC briefings, sent on voyages to Tian Xia, and visiting the Blakros Museum?
I think that if any group was going to be inclusive of unusual or bizarre adventurers, it would be the Pathfinders. They let all my weird characters join, after all.
As far as backstory goes... He could have been passing by the front of Valsin's office as the man was doing a head count and just been thrown in as another newbie for his first mission (go deliver some goods here, watch out for zombies 101). And, after proving himself with nothing but a rolling pin and some bad attitude, is now officially "one of the guys." He still sticks to pans and waffle irons because, at least for now, it works for him. Sure, the first time he tangos with an outsider he may need to think about expanding to a cold iron short sword (flavored as a meat cleaver, maybe), but for the time being - a two-handed improvised weapon is still 1d6 or 1d8+1.5 str, +3 if power attacking.
That's more than enough for killin' zombies.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Lazar
"Well, I was out cleaning the pans one day, an' this greybeard came an' died on m'doorstep. He asked me t'take this packet to Absalom, an' gave me his compass thingy an, a pouch o' gold. I gave some of t'gold to my da and booked myself passage, workin' as a cook, you wouldn't beleive how bland ship food is! When I got t'Absalom I was attacked by some of those ass-piss guys, an' fought 'em off w/my fryin' pan and cooking knife. Never interrupt a chef while he's cookin'! One o' the greybeard's friends saw me, and 'parently in those papers he gave me was a 'field commission'. So they said I was a Pathfinder now. y'all kin keep your swords and shields. m'frying pan got me to Absalom, I'll keep using it. Erastil's luck an' all."
Just a thought :-)
Edit: "Ma friend Alonzo gave me these vials of cooking oil of magic weapon. Says it makes m'Pan hit harder. Dunno about that, but it definately makes the potatoes taste better."
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The real reason I hate most ideas like this is that they're brought up with as cute gimmicks but not really thought out organically as characters.
Exactly. These gimmicks are perfect for a home game with an understanding group, but I wouldn't want to inflict a PC like this on a public PFS group, as it has a tendency to stretch the suspension of disbelief beyond breaking point.
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Huh. Just make sure that the first chronicle for the PC is from Master of the Fallen Fortress, and that your group succeeded at rescuing the bard....
Field commission.
And: "I use what I feel comfortable using, those swordie things just poke my side when I try to wear one. And we won't even go into the way they don't handle chopping onions for the stew. And unwieldy! You want to smash garlic, you want a small knife, not a glaive." (snort)
Jacques Pepin as a Pathfinder. ;)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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For what it's worth, at my table: to enchant a weapon, the item must first be a masterwork weapon. Not a masterwork tool, a weapon. People have (rightly) mentioned how harvesting tools ended up being weapons, but they were modified from their original forms, weaponized, if you will.
So, I've had the pleasure of having Some Random Player at my table, playing Farmer Bob with his astonishing folding chair. But it has to be built as a weapon in order to be a masterwork weapon, in order to be dwoemered as a weapon. And 'folding chair' doesn't turn up on any of the weapon tables, unlike the weaponized nunchuku, glaive, scythe, and so on.
So, throw folding chairs, dung forks, empty soda bottles, what you please. It's a fun concept. But if you want to throw a magic dung fork, you'll need to coat it in oil of magic weapon. Or else talk to a weaponsmith and invent a new weapon that does what you want, an option that's not open in PFS.
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For what it's worth, at my table: to enchant a weapon, the item must first be a masterwork weapon. Not a masterwork tool, a weapon. People have (rightly) mentioned how harvesting tools ended up being weapons, but they were modified from their original forms, weaponized, if you will.
So, I've had the pleasure of having Some Random Player at my table, playing Farmer Bob with his astonishing folding chair. But it has to be built as a weapon in order to be a masterwork weapon, in order to be dwoemered as a weapon. And 'folding chair' doesn't turn up on any of the weapon tables, unlike the weaponized nunchuku, glaive, scythe, and so on.
So, throw folding chairs, dung forks, empty soda bottles, what you please. It's a fun concept. But if you want to throw a magic dung fork, you'll need to coat it in oil of magic weapon. Or else talk to a weaponsmith and invent a new weapon that does what you want, an option that's not open in PFS.
Hey Chris, from the PRD, they are considered Improvised Weapons:
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be non-proficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Since it is a type of weapon, you could make it masterwork by making out of a special material and thus enchant it.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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No, Todd, I disagree. As you say yourself, they're not designed for combat.
You can poke somebody with your thieves' tools. You can make a masterwork set of theives tools. You can make an adamatine set of theves' tools. They're still not designed to be weapons. and they're not a masterwork weapon.
A masterwork wok ("masterwok"?) is the perfect tool for grilling vegetables. You can use it as an improvised weapon, but it's very even heating surface doesn't give you a +1 to hit with it. And you can make it a wondrous item, but you can't make it a magic weapon. It's not designed for combat.
The exception is if you take it to a weaponsmith and say: sharpen the edge, or rebalance this so that it acts like a weapon. That item might still be a wok or a spade, the same way a (weapon) scythe could still cut wheat, but the (weapon) scythe has be redesigned with grips that allow it to attack enemies effectively. A (weapon) spade could probably still turn earth, but it'll be shaped a little differently. That item can be made a masterwork weapon, and dwoemered to do extra damage, or be flaming, or what-you-please.
The only problem is that it requires custom crafting, and people can't do that under the current PFS rule-set.
Again, I like the concept. I think it's a fun "Jackie Chan" kind of character to play. But it requires me to adjudicate rules as a table judge beyond my authority.
Now, if Mark wants to weigh in and give us guidelines on how a PC can make custom masterwork improvised weapons, I'll be happy to follow them.
Contributor
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Now, if Mark wants to weigh in and give us guidelines on how a PC can make custom masterwork improvised weapons, I'll be happy to follow them.
I don't think this is an issue that needs Mike or Mark to make a ruling on.
RAW, an item not designed for combat is an improvised weapon.
RAW, there are rules governing making an item into a masterwork weapon.
RAW, there are rules governing the enchanting of items that will be used as weapons (specifically, that they must be masterwork weapons first).
Therefore, RAW, a wok +300gp is therefore a "masterwok" that is an improvised weapon (with a +1 to attack rolls), and can be enchanted.
I suppose, as with other things, you'd be free to deny a player to use things at your table, however:
A GM’s duty is to provide a fair and fun game.
Can you "cook up" a serious argument as to why a player who spends extra time, in-character resources, and mechanical penalties to play a concept that is fun for them isn't fair?
If not, that is not fair or fun for any of the players at your table, and you're doing your players and PFS Organized Play as a whole a disservice.
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Regardless of enchanting improvised weapons or not...
If a PC sits down with a legal build that's "non-traditional," as combat effective/ineffective as it might be -- they shouldn't be treated any different than any other prospective player. If they're being disruptive or something, that's another story, but from the information presented ("my character attacks using frying pans"), there's really no reason to cause a fuss.
As far as PCs with improvised weapon builds breaking verisimilitude -- there were plenty of cooks, carpenters, and every-day men that have stepped up to the plate to take on the mantle of hero. Sam (LotR) carries a backpack full of miscellaneous stuff, and wouldn't hesitate to bash baddies over the head with a rolling pin. These kind of characters are so needed in any setting -- they're the intrepid spirit kind of adventurer.
Finally, telling players what they should and shouldn't do outside of legality questions is close to that whole 'bad-wrong-fun' area that's never pretty. You don't have to have a character that's great at something to be a great addition to any table. You just have to be great yourself ;)
EDIT: Also, the last part of what Mike said -- that.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Therefore, RAW, a wok +300gp is therefore a "masterwok" that is an improvised weapon (with a +1 to attack rolls)
Even a shield, which has an entry on the Core weapons table, does not get +1 to attack rolls from being masterwork. To suggest that it's easier to wok-face someone than to shield bash them, with both items being masterwork, is ridiculous.
There is no rule anywhere stating that any and every object that is of masterwork quality gets a bonus to hit and can gain weapon enchantments.
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Did he pay for it as a MW weapon? Let him use it as a MW weapon. If he payed for a MW tool, let him use it as such. But he needs to remember that one is not the other... sorry, no +2 to pry open a door with that MW Club. And no +1 to hit with "Trusty Buddy" - the adamantine crowbar (even if it does give a +4 to open doors and chests and bypasses DR when used as a improvised weapon).
The difference in the game is the cost. Right?
I don't see anything against it being both, as long as it's paid for - +350gp and it can both be a MW improvised weapon and MW tool, methinks.
But yes, I think you're spot-on. +50gp and it's a MW tool, +300 and it's a MW weapon - one doesn't get the benefit of the other.
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So if anyone's thinking a masterwork shovel would somehow be more combat effective than that...
This guy does:
Masterwork (possibly silver or adamantine) shovel.
;-)
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Where does anyone get to espouse the idea that showing people the fluff in Seekers that explains how the average Pathfinder Agent gets into the Society as a full member and encouraging them to play WITH the campaign's core concept instead of a fringe character is engaging in bad-wrong-fun browbeating?
By presenting the source as saying that the fringe character is against the core concept as laid out in the book, it could easily be misconstrued that such a character is against the rules.
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Where does anyone get to espouse the idea that showing people the fluff in Seekers that explains how the average Pathfinder Agent gets into the Society as a full member and encouraging them to play WITH the campaign's core concept instead of a fringe character is engaging in bad-wrong-fun browbeating?
To quote you, earlier in this thread:
"Sounds like a GREAT character concept.... but utterly inappropriate to this campaign setting."
IMO, that's not "encouraging them to play with the campaign's core concept", that's telling them, "there's no way you should play that."
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So, throw folding chairs, dung forks, empty soda bottles, what you please. It's a fun concept. But if you want to throw a magic dung fork, you'll need to coat it in oil of magic weapon. Or else talk to a weaponsmith and invent a new weapon that does what you want, an option that's not open in PFS.
If it's a legal target for an oil of magic weapon would that not make it a legal target for the Masterwork Transformation spell, thus meeting the masterwork requirement for enchanting purposes?
Magic Weapon targets a weapon, Masterwork transformation can target a weapon to upgrade it to a masterwork weapon, if you can target an improvised weapon with one spell as a weapon, you should be able to target it with another spell as a weapon.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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So if anyone's thinking a masterwork shovel would somehow be more combat effective than that...This guy does:
Masterwork (possibly silver or adamantine) shovel.
;-)
You beat me to it. I was going here.
And just to add to the fun... Remember Ezren's cane is his club :-)
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Let's also remember that shields are weapons, yet having a masterwork shield doesn't give you a bonus to hit. So if anyone's thinking a masterwork shovel would somehow be more combat effective than that...
A shield is already classified as armor, therefore it doesn't translate over to whether or not improvised weapons can become masterwork and then enchanted. There are also special rules for masterwork armor already.
I'm not talking about tools, nor armor. I'm talking about objects classified as improvised weapons, such as a rock or a mug or a small end table.
The masterwork entry doesn't specify what type of weapon it has to be (Simple, Martial, Exotic, Improvised) therefore as long as it has the 'weapon' classification, it can be made masterwork and therefore enchanted.
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Where does anyone get to espouse the idea that showing people the fluff in Seekers that explains how the average Pathfinder Agent gets into the Society as a full member and encouraging them to play WITH the campaign's core concept instead of a fringe character is engaging in bad-wrong-fun browbeating?To quote you, earlier in this thread:
"Sounds like a GREAT character concept.... but utterly inappropriate to this campaign setting."
IMO, that's not "encouraging them to play with the campaign's core concept", that's telling them, "there's no way you should play that."
Exactly! Not only that, if a player doesn't want to immerse themselves in the campaign world, that is perfectly fine as well. If they just want to build a PFS legal character, sit down at a table and roll some dice, not caring about the story or the campaign world, that is completely okay.
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Therefore, RAW, a wok +300gp is therefore a "masterwok" that is an improvised weapon (with a +1 to attack rolls)Even a shield, which has an entry on the Core weapons table, does not get +1 to attack rolls from being masterwork. To suggest that it's easier to wok-face someone than to shield bash them, with both items being masterwork, is ridiculous.
There is no rule anywhere stating that any and every object that is of masterwork quality gets a bonus to hit and can gain weapon enchantments.
Remember that there are different kinds of masterwork items.
Masterworking the normal "tool" costs 50 gp.
Masterworking armor & shield costs 150 gp, which makes the item less bulky, insofar as lowering the ACP of the item by 1.
Masterworking a weapon costs 300 gp, and gives it a +1 enhancement bonus to hit.
So, a masterwork shield, which may be used as a weapon, is just improving it wearability, not its ability to hit.
Corrolary question: Could you pay 450 gold to masterwork a shield to both lower its ACP, and to give it the +1 enhancement bonus to hit?
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Perhaps. And perhaps you could then both dwoemer the object as both a shield and a bashing light weapon.
And, I guess, I'm not arguing that you can't have, say, a flail that looks sort of like a table lamp. And make it a masterwork flail and a magic flail. But then, it wouldn't be an improvised weapon.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Corrolary question: Could you pay 450 gold to masterwork a shield to both lower its ACP, and to give it the +1 enhancement bonus to hit?
Funnily enough, the answer is right there in the CRB, almost as though the authors figured that the question would come up. ;)
The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon.
Chief Technical Officer
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Note that Ultimate Equipment has prices for things like Frying Pans.... though if you're serious, buy yourself a non-Stick Mithril Frying Pan. It's in Ultimate Equipment as well.
Just remember that that pan is only *mostly* non-stick. It's mithril, not magic! :-)
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Corrolary question: Could you pay 450 gold to masterwork a shield to both lower its ACP, and to give it the +1 enhancement bonus to hit?Funnily enough, the answer is right there in the CRB, almost as though the authors figured that the question would come up. ;)
The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon.
Oddly enough, that only says that the 150 gp masterworking doesn't affect the weapon side of the shield.
Could I, instead, pay 300 gp to materwork a shield, not get the ACP/regular armor masterworking benefits, but instead take the weapon masterworking effects?
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Kinevon, the passage Jiggy cites would suggest not. That would be "a masterwork quality" of the shield, and that never provides a bonus to the attack rolls of a shield bash.
That interpretation seems wrong to me, though.
Regarding shields, I think you can purchase masterwork shield spikes, and then enchant those as weapons, though.
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Don't you think if you were supposed to be able to just pay more and get "weapon-masterwork", they'd have said so? It's not like we're talking about an unforeseen interaction with a future splat book. The author(s) knew people would want to weapon-masterwork their shields, and yet the only text even remotely related to answering that question says that you never get that bonus.
Your question is both obvious and old, not new and obscure. The CRB answers it quite clearly. It's not like there was only one type of masterwork quality in the CRB and then a new book added one and we don't know if they're supposed to interact.
EDIT - Badly ninja'd. :/
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As far as PCs with improvised weapon builds breaking verisimilitude -- there were plenty of cooks, carpenters, and every-day men that have stepped up to the plate to take on the mantle of hero. Sam (LotR) carries a backpack full of miscellaneous stuff, and wouldn't hesitate to bash baddies over the head with a rolling pin. These kind of characters are so needed in any setting -- they're the intrepid spirit kind of adventurer.The problem is that this isn't a roleplaying concept it's a cheese path trying to take a feat far beyond what's intended.
The improvised weapon that the feat "catch off guard" is meant around, is the chair/bottle/mug/pan you just grabbed right next to you to clock your foe with. That's the "Jackie Chan" style, he picks up an iprovised weapon, gets a couple of hits with it and then drops it to either continue barehanded or grabs another. He doesn't "keep" them for later and repeated use.
If you take that same item and then intentionally modify it for combat, it's no longer an improvised weapon, but a premeditated and designed custom weapon type that needs to be redefined.
O.o
I haven't posted on anything regarding mechanics thing at all. Wouldn't touch that side of this conversation with a 10-foot improvised touching pole!
The purpose of my post was to make the statement that there is no bad-wrong-fun build as long as it is PFS legal.
It was in response to this comment, which was regarding Todd's sentiments about what characters people should be allowed to play.
As I understand it, Pathfinder Society is open to any player and any legal character concept, with only imagination being the limit.I believe in imagination and wholly support it. The only thing I look for in taking a concept seriously in a roleplaying context is verisimilitude. Give me that in context and I'll embrace anything.
If however you get me and the rest of the team slaughtered because you're sticking to your "concept", I'm not going to be very happy. But that feeds into the verisimilitude I've mentioned before. A Pathfinder who survives his first mission or first year will do so because she's learned not to be a dead weight.
If the build he posted was illegal, I apologize -- I didn't look into the mechanics of it. That said, as I understand it someone taking attacks with a flour sack or frying pan against an unarmed opponent benefits from the Catch Off-Guard feat. Am I wrong?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I don't think anyone disagrees that you can carry an object with the express intent of using it as an improvised weapon, Walter. :)
Topics of debate, as I understand them, are these:
• Can you get a masterwork improvised weapon such that it gains a +1 to hit?
• Can you add weapon enchantments to an improvised weapon?
• If either/both of the above are "yes", is the item still considered an improvised weapon, or is it a "real" weapon?
• If it's a "real" weapon, haven't you just created a custom item, thereby breaking campaign rules?
My personal answers:
• No.
• Maybe.
• No longer an improvised weapon.
• Yes.
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Let me remind you of what an Improvised Weapon is:
"Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use..."
Whether or not you use masterwork transformation on an end table and then add an enhancement bonus to it, it is still NOT designed for use in combat, and thus, would still be an Improvised Weapon for Catch Off Guard and Improvised Weapon Mastery.
Come on people, this isn't cheesy and it doesn't break the game or PFS rules. All it allows is for alternate builds to be efficient at high levels, vs things like incorporeal undead, which can only be affected by magic weapons.
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Let me remind you of what an Improvised Weapon is:
"Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use..."
Suppose you spend the 300gp (and/or a casting of masterwork transformation, whatever) and now have a rolling pin that's sufficiently well-suited to combat to give you a +1 to hit. It's now easier to hit people with this rolling pin because resources have been put into making sure it's specially made to improve its combat utility.
Let me remind you of what an Improvised Weapon is:
"Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use..."
For an item to be an improvised weapon, it needs to be "not crafted to be a weapon"/"not designed for [combat]".
For an item to get +1 to hit, it needs to be specially crafted for better performance in combat.
An item (regardless of whether it's a sword or a sickle or a rolling pin) cannot be simultaneously specially-made for combat AND not made for combat.
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For what it's worth, at my table: to enchant a weapon, the item must first be a masterwork weapon. Not a masterwork tool, a weapon.
It's posts like this that have kept me from making an improvised weapons master in PFS.
Even though it is very clear that improvised weapons are, you know, weapons (they're right there on the weapons chart and everything), and the rules even allow enchanting other things into magic weapons (shields, for example) that don't appear on the weapons table, I *still* won't make such a character because I really hate table variation when playing a character.
This is something that deserves a FAQ answer. Seriously. "Can you buy a +1 masterwork mithral frying pan?"