Wondering if this is Society legal somehow


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The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Todd, that's not what masterwork transformation does.

Spell Description wrote:
You convert a non-masterwork item into its masterwork equivalent. A normal sword becomes a masterwork sword, a suit of leather armor becomes a masterwork suit of leather armor, a set of thieves’ tools becomes masterwork thieves’ tools, and so on.

If you cast masterwork transformation on Lem's flute, which is a tool, you get a flute that's really good at playing music. You don't get a flute that's suddenly better at hitting people over the head.

For masterwork transformation to turn something into a masterwork weapon, the target has to be a weapon in the first place. And an "improvised weapon" is something else, like a bag of flour or a goat, being used as a weapon.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

ShakaUVM wrote:
Even though it is very clear that improvised weapons are, you know, weapons

It's also very clear that improvised weapons are, you know, improvised.

ShakaUVM wrote:
(they're right there on the weapons chart and everything)

I'm looking at said table, and I'm not seeing them.

ShakaUVM wrote:
and the rules even allow enchanting other things into magic weapons (shields, for example) that don't appear on the weapons table,

Um, shields do appear on the weapons table.

So your argument was:

• Improvised weapons are on the weapons table, and
• Shields are not on the weapons table, therefore:

Improvised weapons are more "weapon-ish" than shields. (And then you continued building from there.

But both of your premises are false, so there goes your entire argument.

-------------------

Even so, I too would like to see a PFS ruling one way or the other, just to put it to rest.

The Exchange 5/5

Chris Mortika wrote:

Todd, that's not what masterwork transformation does.

Spell Description wrote:
You convert a non-masterwork item into its masterwork equivalent. A normal sword becomes a masterwork sword, a suit of leather armor becomes a masterwork suit of leather armor, a set of thieves’ tools becomes masterwork thieves’ tools, and so on.

If you cast masterwork transformation on Lem's flute, which is a tool, you get a flute that's really good at playing music. You don't get a flute that's suddenly better at hitting people over the head.

For masterwork transformation to turn something into a masterwork weapon, the target has to be a weapon in the first place. And an "improvised weapon" is something else, like a bag of flour or a goat, being used as a weapon.

O.O

>.<

A goat as a improvised weapon....
just the image....

do you have to be a druid to pull this off? "Yeah, hit 'em with the goat!"

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Actually, technically, a goat is an animal, rather than an object, and I believe an improvised weapon does have to be an object.

Which won't be much of an issue after you throw the goat at the yeti once or twice.

Disclaimer No actual goats were injured or "turned into objects" in the making of this forum post.

Sovereign Court

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I really want a Masterwork Goat now.

The Exchange 5/5

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O.O

wow - does that mean there's a skill "Craft goat?"

Shadow Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern aka CanisDirus

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I suppose if it's a dead animal, it becomes an inanimate object...

I need to stop this line of thought before someone thinks about doing this at a PFS table...

Charlie Sheen's "Chicken Arrow"

Edit: Well, I suppose, if you cast magic fang on its beak while it was alive, or on its beak/claws when dead...

Edit 2: No, bad GM, no soup for you...


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Please excuse the astonishment of this post, but holy frijoles already.

First of all, the way some are describing what a true adventurer/pathfinder would be, Bilbo never woulda gone on that trek to begin with. That means evil wins. Both times, 'cuz Frodo and Sam ain't adventurers either.

The "non-adventurer" is the one who saved the day in both stories.

Secondly, if Farmer Bob is deemed illegal, fine. I have other PCs to play. My problem would be with WHY he is being deemed illegal. It has been explained more than once here how the rules could qualify the use and/or purchase of masterwork and enchanted improvised weapons.

If the OCD committee should win out, it is bad for everyone.

I have gone out of my way to build flavor over optimization. Need I remind people of the complaints about ubermunchkin PCs? Well, I can build those too if that is preferable. My experience has been that people don't like me when I blow combats off the map in one round.

(Sorry for the conceit, but everyone knows that with enough time an effort people can build things that are hard to deal with as a GM). In this case, I have avoided being annoying in favor of being fun. Which incidentally, as most people in our group can tell you -- that is rare.

As far as the basis of the argument goes, this isn't rocket surgery.

One can have an improvised weapon and go to the smith and say "put metal studs on this rolling pin. Better yet, make me a cold iron rolling pin with a hollow core for some quicksilver." (natch!) Still not a weapon according to the weapon table. Still improvised, but those studs are awfully durned nice and ouchy. Now he has a masterwork cold iron mercurial rolling pin. Most fighters would still roll their eyes at you and wonder why you don't use a real weapon. Then the same guy turns to the mage and says "hey, enchant this thing."

For those who are now going to remind me that mages aren't a PC class in PFS, and that mercurial weapons don't exist and were stupid to begin with, please go get some fresh air.

The enchantment is magic - magic can be imaginative. A rock is and has been historically used as a weapon, but I don't see it on the weapon table. No, you ad nauseum picky ones, not a sling stone, a rock. I notice that "pointy stick" and "board with a nail in it" are absent as well. Forgive me if I have missed PF Suplement #326.17a2.0004 and I am incorrect on the rock/stick thing.

I wish I weren't the guy with the PC in question. Then I could freely say, "Seriously? The guy is hurting no one, is having fun, the players like the character, and it isn't over (or under) balancing the game AND can be explained within the rules."

My can of sarcasm was overflowing on the kitchen counter and I had to use some of it before it spoiled. :)

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Some Random Player, as I've said, I've had the pleasure of having Farmer Bob at my table and I think he's a cool character. I *like* the flavor. I don't think he's over-powered.

But I don't think the rules allow for a non-weapon to be made into a masterwork weapon, or a magic weapon. Put another way, once you convert that rolling pin, board-with-a-nail-in-it, or sack of potatoes into masterwork weapons, they are no longer "improvised weapons".

At that point, in a home campaign, we'd sit down and figure out what sorts of weapons they've become. (My guess: club, pick, and giant-sized sap.) I'm waiting for Mark to come on and explain how we can make that determination in PFS.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Power level does not determine legality.

It wouldn't be overpowered to let a sorcerer learn charm animal instead of charm person, but it would still be illegal.

It wouldn't be overpowered to let someone put bane (plants) on their sword for half price, but it would still be illegal.

It wouldn't be overpowered to let hold person affect all these tieflings and aasimar, but it would still be illegal.

And it wouldn't be overpowered to let the +1 flaming wok still count as "improvised", but it would still be illegal.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern aka CanisDirus

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Some Random Player wrote:
I wish I weren't the guy with the PC in question. Then I could freely say,

Than I'll say it:

"Seriously? The guy is hurting no one, is having fun, the players like the character, and it isn't over (or under) balancing the game AND can be explained within the rules."

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Mike Bramnik wrote:
AND can be explained within the rules.

Except for the part where it can't, because the rules define an improvised weapon as being not made for combat. An object can't be simultaneously specialized for combat and not made for combat.


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Clinging to semantics like you and several others on here do is going to legislate yourselves into a CRB that is 1500 pages long and a GtPFSOP that is even longer.

Basing your entire argument on the phrase "not being made for combat" is inherently weak. That could also mean "was never intended for use as a weapon (even though it could function as one)."

People use things for unintended purposes all the time. I just repaired a percussion instrument with my daughter's hair tie. I suppose that ruins the instrument and the performers are now going to take a -4 penalty to play it.

A rolling pin deliberately crafted as a weapon instead of a rolling pin is still not a weapon on the weapon table. That makes it an improvised weapon. And therefore, both qualities which you say cannot exist together. Hence my rock/stick argument. Those are both most certainly weapons and have been used as such, but don't appear on the weapon table. You have even seen it in published events. "The orc children grab sticks (treat as clubs d6)," or somesuch.

Jiggy wrote:
Mike Bramnik wrote:
AND can be explained within the rules.
Except for the part where it can't, because the rules define an improvised weapon as being not made for combat. An object can't be simultaneously specialized for combat and not made for combat.

The Exchange

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Does the world of Pathfinder come tumbling down when I step in and say my character has a Swordcane, Daggers, Cooking knives, o and a Skillet for weapons list. I didn't throw in the other stuff that I just would pull out for flair. (Rolling pin, Cooking pot, waffle iron, Spatula, etc)

The core roots of pathfinder has always been to come to the table and have fun. It starts getting not so fun when constant people are always trying to nikpik at every little thing.

I sat down and thought of a character that is outside the norm and not all about numbers. I do have a backstory that explains how he became a Agent.
So please stop going on about how something can't be down and lets focus back on the core elements of the game which is to have fun.

I do not think what I am bringing to the table is uber rules breaking. I don't think it really breaks any rules. I have trained to be able to effectively uses something other than a traditional weapon as a weapon. Lets look at monks/Ninjas from tradition whom can turn anything into a deadly effective weapon.

I guess I need to conform to making cookie cutout characters with no uniqueness.

The game is about using your imagination and having fun. Lets continue to focus on those 2 elements and stop bogging it down with rules lawyering.

If I wanted to make a character that wields a pen and book as weapons then I would. Will that character be a effective as say a fighter ... no, but he has more personality and roleplay fun.

I once played a homebrew game with a gnome and a frying pan that got put in a gladiatorial battle.. he knocked out the dwarf with one swift hit and that gave his weapon a name Dwarf Knocker.

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

Chris Mortika wrote:

Put another way, once you convert that rolling pin, board-with-a-nail-in-it, or sack of potatoes into masterwork weapons, they are no longer "improvised weapons". /QUOTE]

I disagree, they are still not designed to be weapons even if they are masterwork so they are still technically Improvised Weapons according to RAW

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

Jiggy wrote:
Mike Bramnik wrote:
AND can be explained within the rules.
Except for the part where it can't, because the rules define an improvised weapon as being not made for combat. An object can't be simultaneously specialized for combat and not made for combat.

Yes they can if you instead change it to "specialized for use in combat but not originally designed for use in combat"

That is how to describe a masterwork improvised weapon.


Jonriza Mavaska wrote:

The core roots of pathfinder has always been to come to the table and have fun.

If I wanted to make a character that wields a pen and book as weapons then I would. Will that character be a effective as say a fighter ... no, but he has more personality and roleplay fun.

My unique guy is more fun than your boring old fighter.

Pot kettle black.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

It seems to me that a rolling pin can be 'made for combat' and use the stats as a club.

Or perhaps someone can point me to the weapon entry for 'cane'?

The Exchange

Swordcane is in the Ultimate Equipment guide.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Jonriza Mavaska wrote:

Does the world of Pathfinder come tumbling down when I step in and say my character has a Swordcane, Daggers, Cooking knives, o and a Skillet for weapons list. I didn't throw in the other stuff that I just would pull out for flair. (Rolling pin, Cooking pot, waffle iron, Spatula, etc)

The core roots of pathfinder has always been to come to the table and have fun. It starts getting not so fun when constant people are always trying to nikpik at every little thing.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I think the idea of attacking with cutlery (or other improvised weapons) is awesome. I also like the idea of starting with a rolling pin, then eventually "upgrading" it for combat until you've got a +1 holy flaming rolling-pin-shaped club.

All I'm saying is that once you reach that point, the Catch Off-Guard feat no longer renders an unarmed target flat-footed, because your +1 holy flaming rolling-pin-shaped club is no longer "improvised".

Now if you want to respond to that, I'll happily listen and reply (and do so without personal attacks, thankyouverymuch).

But stop the hyperboles and the old "The point is fun, and I'd have fun with this, so guess what that means about anyone who opposes it?" boloney.

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

A down-on-his-luck baker opens a shop at the edge of Sandpoint. He is very good at what he does, and he starts making some money. However, about once a month, the local goblin tribe sends in some youngsters to steal bread. He tries to fight them off with his rolling pin in hand, but it breaks over the head of on a particularly thick-skulled goblin and they loot quite a bit of his product.

A month goes by, in which he repairs the damage and gets a new rolling pin, etc. Then, the goblin tribe sends in more youngsters, this time lead by Thickskull Horsekicker and again, his rolling pin breaks and they make off with more bread before the town can assist. The baker then decides to have a special rolling pin made, that will work fine for his day to day work, but not break if he has to defend himself against the goblins again.

So he goes to the town blacksmith and asks him to fashion a rolling pin out of adamantine, as he has heard from adventurers visiting his shop that it is neigh unbreakable. The blacksmith finds it an odd request, but money is money and he fashions a nice adamantine rolling pin for our friend the baker.

Another month passes and Thickskull Horsekicker again comes leading a pack of goblins to raid the shop for bread. This time, the tables have turned and the flour-stained rolling pin does a fine job of bashing in the heads of all the goblins that try to raid the shop. The baker is pleased and goes about cleaning up the shop (and rolling pin) and goes back to baking bread.

That night, he is woken up by the ghosts of those goblins he killed, who are tearing apart his kitchen. Unfortunately, the adamantine rolling pin does nothing to them and his kitchen again is in disrepair.
Falling back again on advice of some adventurers, he visits the local wizard and presents his rolling pin and asks if there is anything the wizard could do to help him fight off the ghosts. The wizard, not wanting to leave his nice warm tower, enchants the adamantine rolling pin (for a small fee) and gives it to the baker, who trudges back to his shop. That night, when the ghosts of the goblins come back, he tries his new rolling pin on them, and much to his surprise it does the trick.

Forward the scene half a year and our baker hasn’t had an attack in months. The locals love his bread, and are convinced it has something to do with his glowing rolling pin. He just smiles and grins. A group of Pathfinders, having just decimated the goblin tribe, come into his shop and lament how they cannot get such good bread on the road. Our baker gets a strange thought in his head. The next morning, the locals find the shop closed, with a note that the baker as gone on to find his fortune. They investigate and find that all the tools of the trade are present, except for one glowing rolling pin. Thus begins the tale of the famous baker/Pathfinder Duncan Hines, who is known worldwide today.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

@Todd Morgan - With the caveat that his rolling pin no longer interacts with things like the Catch Off-Guard feat, sounds awesome. :)

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

If someone wants to get an enchanted club, and say it's actually a rolling pin, that's fine with me. But if you claim it's a also a tool for your Profession (baker) skill, so you can use the Rough and Ready trait to get a +1 trait bonus to all your attack rolls with it, then that's a problem.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

RainyDayNinja wrote:
If someone wants to get an enchanted club, and say it's actually a rolling pin, that's fine with me. But if you claim it's a also a tool for your Profession (baker) skill, so you can use the Rough and Ready trait to get a +1 trait bonus to all your attack rolls with it, then that's a problem.

I dunno, Rough and Ready doesn't actually say it has to be an improvised weapon for the trait to apply; heck, it even lists picks as a common option.

Come to think of it, is there anything besides Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything that interacts specifically with improvised weapons?

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

Jiggy wrote:
@Todd Morgan - With the caveat that his rolling pin no longer interacts with things like the Catch Off-Guard feat, sounds awesome. :)

No it would, for two reasons:

1) Being that the adventurer still uses the rolling pin primarily for its designed use (making bread), it is still classified as an improvised weapon.
2) What enemy would really thing a guy with a rolling pin is a threat?

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

Jiggy wrote:


Come to think of it, is there anything besides Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything that interacts specifically with improvised weapons?

Improvised Weapon Mastery

The Exchange

Just found this and thought it to be interesting to these post

http://www.prescottaz.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&Artic leID=106422

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Todd Morgan wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
@Todd Morgan - With the caveat that his rolling pin no longer interacts with things like the Catch Off-Guard feat, sounds awesome. :)

No it would, for two reasons:

1) Being that the adventurer still uses the rolling pin primarily for its designed use (making bread), it is still classified as an improvised weapon.

If my Day Job is Craft (carpentry), can I call my light hammer or warhammer an improvised weapon? You sure are quick to contradict rules that you've already quoted yourself: the definition of an improvised weapon is not that it's used for other things, it's that it's not made for combat.

Quote:
2) What enemy would really thing a guy with a rolling pin is a threat?

You just said it was glowing. How stupid are your NPCs? ;)

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Jiggy wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
If someone wants to get an enchanted club, and say it's actually a rolling pin, that's fine with me. But if you claim it's a also a tool for your Profession (baker) skill, so you can use the Rough and Ready trait to get a +1 trait bonus to all your attack rolls with it, then that's a problem.

I dunno, Rough and Ready doesn't actually say it has to be an improvised weapon for the trait to apply; heck, it even lists picks as a common option.

Come to think of it, is there anything besides Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything that interacts specifically with improvised weapons?

Rough and Ready wrote:
Benefit: When you use a tool of your trade (requiring at least 1 rank in the appropriate Craft or Profession skill) as a weapon, you do not take the improvised weapon penalty and instead receive a +1 trait bonus on your attack. This trait is commonly used with shovels, picks, blacksmith hammers, and other sturdy tools — lutes and brooms make terribly fragile weapons.

I think it's clear that Rough and Ready is referring to tools used as improvised weapons. I'd say that if you wouldn't otherwise have an improvised weapon penalty, then you don't get the +1 trait bonus, since you get that "instead" of the penalty.

The Exchange 5/5

I'm not supporting any side here - just "poking the bear"

In a resent game my PC was attacked by a chair. Would he fear a guy holding a rolling pin? You betcha!

He owns a "hat of disguise" and often makes his tower shield look like something else... most resently a serving platter at a dinner party.

For that matter, if he used a HoD to make a Greatsword look like a bunch of flowers - could he use Catch Off-Guard to get a bonus with it?

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Jonriza Mavaska wrote:
Swordcane is in the Ultimate Equipment guide.

Which isn't cane. That's my point.

@RainyDayNinja.

My copy of AA reads: "When you use a tool of your trade (requiring at least 1 rank in the appropriate Craft or Profession skill) as a weapon, you do not take the improvised weapon penalty and instead receive a +1
trait bonus on your attack."

So, it says a tool of your trade. I find myself wondering...
Boar spear -> Profession Forrester
Harpoon -> Profession fisherman or sailor. (Call me ishmael)
Iron brush -> Profession scribe (also a good example of a masterwork weapon and tool
Lasso -> Profession farmer
Mattock (and we'll toss picks in there too) -> Profession farmer/miner
Net (maybe) -> Profession fisherman
Whip -> Profession driver

The trait doesn't seem to require the tool to have the improvised trait. Especially with the harpoon lasso and mattock, as there's clearly no difference between their 'tool' and 'weapon' forms.

So... +1 or not?

Edit: I see I was ninja'ed while checking my resources.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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Matthew Morris wrote:

...snipping good stuff

Whip -> Profession driver

Whip -> Profession: Courtesan -

I list these as "tools of my trade" and never even think of them as weapons darling!

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Since it says "you do not take the improvised weapon penalty and instead receive a +1 trait bonus on your attack," I would rule that if you wouldn't have gotten the penalty, you can't get the bonus. Otherwise, it's just Weapon Focus and Catch Off-Guard rolled into one, but as a trait instead of two feats.

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

Jiggy wrote:
Todd Morgan wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
@Todd Morgan - With the caveat that his rolling pin no longer interacts with things like the Catch Off-Guard feat, sounds awesome. :)

No it would, for two reasons:

1) Being that the adventurer still uses the rolling pin primarily for its designed use (making bread), it is still classified as an improvised weapon.

If my Day Job is Craft (carpentry), can I call my light hammer or warhammer an improvised weapon? You sure are quick to contradict rules that you've already quoted yourself: the definition of an improvised weapon is not that it's used for other things, it's that it's not made for combat.

Quote:
2) What enemy would really thing a guy with a rolling pin is a threat?
You just said it was glowing. How stupid are your NPCs? ;)

There is no contradiction. Improvised weapons are defined as objects not made to be used for combat and/or not designed for use in combat. A rolling pin, no matter what material it is made out of, is still not designed as a combat weapon. Therefore using it IN combat would be an improvised use.

The Exchange

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Is it safe to say we are delving too deep into the rules. Seems like its over complicating something that is simple.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Todd Morgan wrote:
A rolling pin, no matter what material it is made out of, is still not designed as a combat weapon.

I never contested this claim.

If you're going to argue, at least do me the courtesy of reading my posts before responding.

Yes, regardless of material, a rolling pin that is "not designed as a combat weapon" is an improvised weapon.

All I'm saying is that once you start adding enhancement bonuses, you can no longer argue that it's not, as the rules put it, "intended for combat". Maybe it started as an improvised weapon, back when it really was just a rolling pin... but there's no such thing as a +1 flaming holy weapon that's not built for combat.

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

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There is no room for level-headedness on these boards Jonriza!

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

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Jiggy wrote:
Todd Morgan wrote:
A rolling pin, no matter what material it is made out of, is still not designed as a combat weapon.

I never contested this claim.

If you're going to argue, at least do me the courtesy of reading my posts before responding.

Yes, regardless of material, a rolling pin that is "not designed as a combat weapon" is an improvised weapon.

All I'm saying is that once you start adding enhancement bonuses, you can no longer argue that it's not, as the rules put it, "intended for combat". Maybe it started as an improvised weapon, back when it really was just a rolling pin... but there's no such thing as a +1 flaming holy weapon that's not built for combat.

Incorrect assumption; your post was read, just disagreed with.

A +5 holy adamantine rolling pin is still an improvised weapon because there is NO rule that states that once you start adding enhancement bonuses to improvised weapons, they cease to be classified as Improvised.. The same way you can add enhancements to a Simple weapon and that will never make it Martial or Exotic. You are creating rules for the system that simply don't exist.

You agree that Improvised weapons can be made out of special material and then enhanced. What rule are you using that says enhancing it changes it's weapon type? What type does it change to? Simple? Martial or Exotic?

I'll make it easy for you, there isn't a rule out there that states that the weapon type changes. Therefore, your enhanced Improvised Weapon is still an Improvised Weapon.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Do you honestly believe that a +1 flaming [whatever] can be "not designed for combat"? If not, then it no longer qualifies as improvised, as per the rule you quoted yourself. If you DO think you can point to an object that's glowing from its piles of weapon enhancements and honestly say "Nah, that's not meant to be a weapon", then you're just being asinine.

And either way, I'm done "discussing" with you. There's enough information in this thread to come to a conclusion; all that's left is for you to decide how much and which parts of the rules you're willing to abide by.

The Exchange

The character in question will have a Martial weapon to fall back on and does use Splash weapons such as bombs and alchimical fire. I m not sure if there are rules for bottles with rags lit and thrown lol. The character wants to conceal his ability to be dangerous which is why he doesn't chose to use big swords and such. The idea was in a group of adventurers the enemy would be focusing on who was the biggest threat. would it be the guy in armor wielding the big sword, the guy dressed like a caster or the guy dressed as a henchmen cooking his comrades meals. I assure you they wouldn't go for the cook first.

Imagine if Nodwick was actually a dangerous force who hides behind the guise of a henchman just there to carry stuff lol.


Todd Morgan wrote:

Incorrect assumption; your post was read, just disagreed with.

A +5 holy adamantine rolling pin is still an improvised weapon because there is NO rule that states that once you start adding enhancement bonuses to improvised weapons, they cease to be classified as Improvised.. The same way you can add enhancements to a Simple weapon and that will never make it Martial or Exotic. You are creating rules for the system that simply don't exist.

You agree that Improvised weapons can be made out of special material and then enhanced. What rule are you using that says enhancing it changes it's weapon type? What type does it change to? Simple? Martial or Exotic?

I'll make it easy for you, there isn't a rule out there that states that the weapon type changes. Therefore, your enhanced Improvised Weapon is still an Improvised Weapon.

Except that you can't make an Improvised weapon masterwork. If you do that then YOU start adding rules that don't exist. If you could, then yes you could enchant the weapon. But because you can't, as being a masterwork weapon (not tool) is the requirement to enchant, you can't enchant it.

I love these types of characters. Love love love! But you're going to taking some penalties for the sake of the character, and a magic weapon is one of them. You could, however, play someone who enchants the weapon they're holding, such as a magus or paladin, but you;d have to spin the back story abit.

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

Jiggy wrote:

Do you honestly believe that a +1 flaming [whatever] can be "not designed for combat"? If not, then it no longer qualifies as improvised, as per the rule you quoted yourself. If you DO think you can point to an object that's glowing from its piles of weapon enhancements and honestly say "Nah, that's not meant to be a weapon", then you're just being asinine.

And either way, I'm done "discussing" with you. There's enough information in this thread to come to a conclusion; all that's left is for you to decide how much and which parts of the rules you're willing to abide by.

I'll take the high road and not be baited by your insults. Yes, the weapon is still improvised, because there is NO other weapon type that it can be.

You are free to make up all the rules you want in your own home games with Improvised Weapons turning into Exotic weapons after X number of enhancements, but in PFS we have to go by RAW, which doesn't state anything about weapon types changing.

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

hello, my name is ninja wrote:
Todd Morgan wrote:

Incorrect assumption; your post was read, just disagreed with.

A +5 holy adamantine rolling pin is still an improvised weapon because there is NO rule that states that once you start adding enhancement bonuses to improvised weapons, they cease to be classified as Improvised.. The same way you can add enhancements to a Simple weapon and that will never make it Martial or Exotic. You are creating rules for the system that simply don't exist.

You agree that Improvised weapons can be made out of special material and then enhanced. What rule are you using that says enhancing it changes it's weapon type? What type does it change to? Simple? Martial or Exotic?

I'll make it easy for you, there isn't a rule out there that states that the weapon type changes. Therefore, your enhanced Improvised Weapon is still an Improvised Weapon.

Except that you can't make an Improvised weapon masterwork. If you do that then YOU start adding rules that don't exist. If you could, then yes you could enchant the weapon. But because you can't, as being a masterwork weapon (not tool) is the requirement to enchant, you can't enchant it.

I love these types of characters. Love love love! But you're going to taking some penalties for the sake of the character, and a magic weapon is one of them. You could, however, play someone who enchants the weapon they're holding, such as a magus or paladin, but you;d have to spin the back story abit.

An Improvised Weapon is still classified as a 'Weapon' so why wouldn't you be able to apply the Masterwork Weapon quality to it? On that, Jiggy and I are both in agreement.


I can't find where it says it's still classified as a weapon, but even if you interpret it that way I'd still like to hear it explained. Because if you start adding metal studs to a rolling pin, that's no longer a rolling pin, that's a cudgel with a handle on both ends. =)

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

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Under the Equipment section, there's the big Weapons header and underneath it has the subtypes that talk about Simple/Martial/Exotic, One Handed, Two Handed etc. The last Subtype it lists is Improvised. Since it's under the big Weapons section of the Equipment chapter, they are considered weapons.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I remind people that masterwork transformation, cast on an abacus or other non-weapon, does not give the object a +1 attack bonus or allow it to be dwoemered into a magical weapon. If you want something like that, magic won't do it for you; you'll need to contract a crafter and have her make you a weapon-quality (indeed masterwork weapon quality) abacus.

And I'll be happy to allow that when there are rules for PFS crafting.

Todd Morgan wrote:
Yes, the weapon is still improvised, because there is NO other weapon type that it can be.

Really, Todd, that's the rub. I don't think it can be anything else, either, at least not in PFS. (It would require the GM to design the weapon's stats.) But I also don't think that a instrument designed to be perfectly banaced for attacking, and then enchanted to do etra, magical damage, and then enhaced with the ghost touch ability ... is "not designed to be a weapon" any more, either.

At least, I'm not allowing it at my table. I'm not saying you shouldn't allow it at yours.


Yes, well, so are the shields, but you can't masterwork those. Ah well, it just doesn't make any sense to me. As soon as you weight or sharpen something for better use as a weapon, it pretty much stops being in the category of "objects not crafted to be weapons." Just saying. But then again this is me applying logic to a game system once again, silly me. ;)

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

RainyDayNinja wrote:
Since it says "you do not take the improvised weapon penalty and instead receive a +1 trait bonus on your attack," I would rule that if you wouldn't have gotten the penalty, you can't get the bonus. Otherwise, it's just Weapon Focus and Catch Off-Guard rolled into one, but as a trait instead of two feats.

Well I'd argue it's more like Weapon focus than catch off guard (since they have the stats of weapons) Though isn't it already 'like weapon focus and catch off guard' since it is giving you improvised weapons at no penalty. and a +1 to hit. So since it doesn't make them flat footed, and it doesn't open up the weapon focus feat tree, it's two 'half feats'.

Is it too good? debatable, none of these weapons I listed are on the 'must have' list. But what stats would you give a harpoon used as an improvised weapon? "I'm not proficient in it, but I have Rough and Ready!"

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Chris Mortika wrote:
Todd Morgan wrote:
Yes, the weapon is still improvised, because there is NO other weapon type that it can be.

Really, Todd, that's the rub. I don't think it can be anything else, either, at least not in PFS. (It would require the GM to design the weapon's stats.) But I also don't think that a instrument designed to be perfectly banaced for attacking, and then enchanted to do etra, magical damage, and then enhaced with the ghost touch ability ... is "not designed to be a weapon" any more, either.

At least, I'm not allowing it at my table. I'm not saying you're not allowed to do so at yours.

Chris, what about a cane?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Matthew Morris wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
Since it says "you do not take the improvised weapon penalty and instead receive a +1 trait bonus on your attack," I would rule that if you wouldn't have gotten the penalty, you can't get the bonus. Otherwise, it's just Weapon Focus and Catch Off-Guard rolled into one, but as a trait instead of two feats.

Well I'd argue it's more like Weapon focus than catch off guard (since they have the stats of weapons) Though isn't it already 'like weapon focus and catch off guard' since it is giving you improvised weapons at no penalty. and a +1 to hit. So since it doesn't make them flat footed, and it doesn't open up the weapon focus feat tree, it's two 'half feats'.

Is it too good? debatable, none of these weapons I listed are on the 'must have' list. But what stats would you give a harpoon used as an improvised weapon? "I'm not proficient in it, but I have Rough and Ready!"

My Day Job is Profession (soldier), and I took Rough and Ready (falcata). Yay! ;)

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