Aw man, You just mentioned Monks though Chris...now we'll never know :p
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It was actually handy at a recent convention. Jason had been turned into one of the walking dead, a vampire! He was casting about for a victim and his unholy red eyes landed on me. As he broke into a terrible grin, his obscene red tongue playing over his fangs, and just before his gaze robbed me of all conscious control, I was able to whisper "monks."
He recoiled in horror, which bolstered my courage. "Monks!" I called out. "Flurry of blows! um, handedness of weapons!" Then I held out my copy of Thornkeep and a metalic ink pen. "Autograph this?"
He hissed and cowered as if I had struck him with physical blows. Then he climbed up the wall, howling like a wolf in mortal agony. He disappeared down one of the hotel's air vents.
I had mixed feelings about it, to tell you the truth. True, my life was saved, but it would have been neat to get the autograph, too.
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For the sake of a precise FAQ series of Questions:
1) Can an Improvised Weapon gain the Masterwork quality, as a weapon?
2) If yes, can an improvised weapon be enchanted as a weapon?
3) Can Weapon Blanches, including Ghost Salts, be applied to Improvised Weapons?
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All those questions would be best suited in the rules forum in the hopes they add them to the Rules FAQ.
Mike in General will not make calls on Pathfinder RPG rules for PFS, he leaves that up for the Rules developers to do so.
The best you are going to get in PFS forums is a bunch of GMs discussing different ways they would handle it as shown in this thread.
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For the sake of a precise FAQ series of Questions:
1) Can an Improvised Weapon gain the Masterwork quality, as a weapon?
2) If yes, can an improvised weapon be enchanted as a weapon?
3) Can Weapon Blanches, including Ghost Salts, be applied to Improvised Weapons?
For the record, James Jacobs' answers to the first two were:
'1) No.
2) Ask your GM. I wouldn't allow it, on the grounds of it being too silly for my campaign style.'
My answers would be:
1) No
2) N/A, as not masterwork
3) I don't see an issue with this, so yes
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Or am I missing something?What you're missing is that he's looking at how a fan site chose to organize their information, and taking that to be equivalent to Paizo having published it that way.
The weapons table that Paizo published lists only actual weapons. Some fans decided to make their own table and add improvised weapons to it.
And ShakaUVM, like so many before him, hasn't yet noticed the difference.
The items in question are not fan made, but are core Paizo material.
If you're going to snark, you should at least double check that you're right, first.
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Ok, from the other direction...
Can a masterwork weapon also be a masterwork tool?
Avoding frying pans for the moment, I'm thinking mattocks, picks, that metal brush monk thingy.
If yes, then why not a 'club-shaped-like-a-frying-pan'?
Shields can't benefit from being masterwork armor and a masterwork weapon at the same time, so it should be safe to say masterwork weapons can't be masterwork tools at the same time. Tool like weapons won't grant a +2 to skill checks, and tools won't grant a +1 to hit if used as an improvised weapon.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If you're going to snark, you should at least double check that you're right, first.
Well then, let's review, shall we?
First, you said (LINK) that improvised weapons must count as normal weapons because "they're right there on the weapons chart and everything".
I then said (LINK) that I checked the weapons chart (which I also linked in that post, but apparently you didn't bother to look) and did not see any entry for improvised weapons.
You then replied (LINK). You quoted the sentence of mine that contained the link to the weapons chart that doesn't contain any improvised weapons, and continued to insist that the weapons chart contains improvised weapons (thereby proving that you have no intention of reading anything presented to you, else you'd have noticed that discrepancy). You even referenced "the 'improvised' keyword", which does not exist in any Paizo-published hardback on the market.
Seeing what the issue was, I commented (LINK) that the source you were using was a fansite which took the official weapons chart (the one I linked but you never looked at) and added improvised weapons themselves. (This kind of thing happens all the time; people don't realize the SRD is a fansite and think everything presented there is pulled straight from the books, and don't notice that some stuff is reorganized/reworded/added for convenience.)
And finally, we get to your latest reply. (LINK) This is the part where the guy who refused to ever look at the things presented to him as counterevidence turns around and accuses the guy with the links and research of not "double-checking that you're right, first".
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I'd be happy to have a rational discussion with you about the nature of improvised weapons. I'm just going to need you to start actually looking at things that challenge your assumptions. Otherwise, no such discussion can really happen, and we're both just sitting here spinning our wheels.
I'll contact the d20pfsrd.com folks and let them know their version of the weapons table is causing issues.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Matthew, I don't think anyone has said you can't have a 'club-shaped-like-a-frying-pan', just that you can't have a club-that's-not-a-club, or a jury-rigged, next-best-thing-to-a-club-that's-not-but-is-also-a-club.
I'm not talking about (ab)using the rough and ready feat. I'm asking from the opposite direction of Arizel's question.
Arizel: Can a tool gain the masterwork weapon quality?
Me: Can a (masterwork) weapon gain the masterwork tool quality?
Ignoring the grandfather's axe paradox for a moment...
Imagine a Pathfinder who uses his father's metal brush as his weapon because when his (tragic story time) family was killed by bandits, he took his granfather's iron brush and was able to kill a bandit before she killed him. He firmly believes his grandfather's spirit resides in the brush and it guided his hand.
In game terms, the player wants to take heirloom weapon (proficient in iron brush) and make it a masterwork brush (paying 50 GP plus weapon cost) and get the +2 to profession (scribe).
(Now sure, he might argue later that he can get masterwork transformation cast on the brush and then enchant it, but again, I'm asking about the possibility of a weapon (brush, mattock, pick, etc) also being a masterwork tool.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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In game terms, the player wants to take heirloom weapon (proficient in iron brush) and make it a masterwork brush (paying 50 GP plus weapon cost) and get the +2 to profession (scribe).
(Now sure, he might argue later that he can get masterwork transformation cast on the brush and then enchant it, but again, I'm asking about the possibility of a weapon (brush, mattock, pick, etc) also being a masterwork tool.
An interesting idea. I'll have to ponder that a bit...
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And finally, we get to your latest reply. (LINK) This is the part where the guy who refused to ever look at the things presented to him as...Again, you're arguing they're making things up, which isn't true. In this case, at least.
But if you want official sources: the equipment trick allows you to throw a shield as an improvised weapon. This contradicts your entire notion that improvised weapons can't be enchanted as normal weapons, as shields can explicitly be enchanted separately as normal weapons.
In addition, the equipment trick feat in general lets you use improvised weapons as improvised or "real" weapons, whichever benefits you more, which means that they can be enchanted as real weapons, as they are real weapons now.
So that's two examples, by the RAW, of magical improvised weapons that would unquestionably work.
Off your favorite SRD site, we see bamboo shafts on the martial weapons chart for eastern weapons. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/combat/easternArmorAndWe apons.html#_bamboo-shaft-arrow) They appear on the weapons chart, but are improvised weapons that do not have any damage listed on the chart. The description says they deal damage of a spiked gauntlet of equal size.
Other people have already mentioned arrows. If you stab a person with your +1 frost arrow, they take the frost damage.
So that's *four different ways* you can legally have an improvised weapon that is enchanted in Pathfinder. Four.
So your assertion that improvised weapons can't be enchanted is provably false.
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In addition, the equipment trick feat in general lets you use improvised weapons as improvised or "real" weapons, whichever benefits you more, which means that they can be enchanted as real weapons, as they are real weapons now.
They're not real weapons; you (the feat posessor) can treat them as real weapons, e.g. for avoiding the normal penalty for using improvised weapons. If you have the feat Equipment Trick (hat stand), it makes no difference to the weaponsmith puzzling over how to make a masterwork weapon hat stand.
The ' magical ammunition used as improvised melee weapon' question I'll leave for others.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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But if you want official sources: the equipment trick allows you to throw a shield as an improvised weapon. This contradicts your entire notion that improvised weapons can't be enchanted as normal weapons, as shields can explicitly be enchanted separately as normal weapons.
Hey there, ShakaUVM. I hope your day is going well.
I can't find the rules that you're citing here, that explicitly allow shields to be made into masterwork weapons or dwoemered into magical weapons. All I keep finding are rules that explicitly don't allow that. The spell masterwork transformation, for example, cannot make a shield into a masterwork weapon. The magical enhancements allowable for shields don't include weapon enhancements. (If they did, ghost touch would be priced wonky.
You can bash with a shield, and you can get masterwork / magic shield spikes. Is that what you're referring to?
I'm not intending to be a jerk here. You say that the rules explicitly spell out that shields themselves can be made into masterwork weapons, and dwoemered. If a player sits at my table with a +1 thorwing, returning tower shield, I'd like to allow it, if I can.
(Oh, and, incidentally, no, if a player decides to use magical arrows as improvised weapons, they do not get their magical enhancement bonuses. Take a look at the descriptions for magical ammunition. Their magic deplays when they are fired, unlike the dwoemer on a melee weapon, which can be turned on or off with a command word.)
Thanks very much!!
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So that's *four different ways* you can legally have an improvised weapon that is enchanted in Pathfinder. Four.
So your assertion that improvised weapons can't be enchanted is provably false.
Alright, let's give each of those four points a look. Thanks for getting to a place where we can discuss; I rather enjoy the investigation of game rules. :)
Your first of four points:
the equipment trick allows you to throw a shield as an improvised weapon. This contradicts your entire notion that improvised weapons can't be enchanted as normal weapons, as shields can explicitly be enchanted separately as normal weapons.
Okay, so Point #1 is basically:
PREMISE: Shields can be used as improvised weapons.PREMISE: Shields can be given weapon enchantments.
CONCLUSION: Improvised weapons can be given weapon enchantments.
Unfortunately, your argument is unsound. Although your second premise is true (@Chris Mortika - Check out the descriptions for heavy and light shields in the armor section of the Equipment chapter of the CRB), your first premise is shaky at best.
According to the CRB, shields used for bashing are treated as ordinary weapons (not improvised ones). It requires the use of Equipment Trick, a feat from a notoriously "rules-messy" splatbook (Adventurer's Armory), in order to treat a shield as an improvised weapon. Using a feat/ability/spell to treat X as Y does not establish that X and Y are equivalent. On the contrary, the fact that it requires a special ability in order to make X work like Y establishes that they are NOT the same thing.
Your premise is only true under special circumstances that produce an exception, but your conclusion needs that premise to be true by default.
Point #1 does not work.
Now, on to Point #2:
In addition, the equipment trick feat in general lets you use improvised weapons as improvised or "real" weapons, whichever benefits you more, which means that they can be enchanted as real weapons, as they are real weapons now.
There are two different ways to read that part of that feat. One is that you can treat it as a normal weapon for the purpose of performing a trick, meaning that if you use a trick that requires an attack roll, you're not forced to take a -4 due to not having Catch Off Guard/Throw Anything. Obviously, this reading would not help your argument.
The other way to read it is that you can treat the selected item as a normal weapon at all times and in all ways. Your stance requires that this interpretation be true. However, this would mean it also no longer counts as an improvised weapon, as the feat forces you to choose one or the other (whichever is more beneficial for you). The selected item, at any given moment, is either improvised or normal. So you've managed to support, rather than refute, the claim made by myself and others that a weapon can't be both at the same time.
So with Point #2, you've shot yourself in the foot.
On to Point #3:
Off your favorite SRD site, we see bamboo shafts on the martial weapons chart for eastern weapons. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/combat/easternArmorAndWe apons.html#_bamboo-shaft-arrow) They appear on the weapons chart, but are improvised weapons that do not have any damage listed on the chart. The description says they deal damage of a spiked gauntlet of equal size.
You need to re-read: these are not an example of an improvised weapon having a chart entry, these are an example of ammunition which has the potential to be used in a completely different way as an improvised weapon.
Point #3 is effectively the same as Point #4, which is:
Other people have already mentioned arrows. If you stab a person with your +1 frost arrow, they take the frost damage.
I can't find this rule anywhere. Are you just assuming that ammunition used to stab someone still gets its magical abilities, or did you actually get that from somewhere? You can't use X as a premise if you're only assuming X to be true in the first place. If you have a rule for this, I'd love to see it. So far, all I've seen is the weapons section of the Magic Items chapter of the CRB referring to ammunition *fired*, but it's possible I missed something. If so, that's probably your best bet, so I encourage you to show me this rule if it exists.
Otherwise, your alleged "four points from RAW" are actually an argument that doesn't work, a feat which undermines your position rather than supporting it, and an assumption trying to be passed off as rules.
I look forward to your response.
There is one problem with using "treated as X" rules as a base for arguments on equivalence.
Just because something is "treated as X", does not mean they ARE actually X.
Meaning, just because they use the same rules as X for this or that purpose, does not mean they use the same rules as X for ALL purposes.
-j
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In addition, the equipment trick feat in general lets you use improvised weapons as improvised or "real" weapons, whichever benefits you more
Right, so if you want to enchant your own hat rack, you can treat it a manufactured weapon while enchanting it, and an improvised weapon while you attack with it. It's not a permanent choice.
I only mention this option for people like you who think only manufactured weapons can be enchanted.
My point of listing those four examples were four different, RAW-valid, ways you can attack with an improvised weapon that has a magical enchantment on it. This shows that 1) it is not contradictory to have a +1 improvised weapon as you claim, and 2) it does not magically transform into another type of "real" weapon as you claim ("no longer counts as an improvised weapon" as you put it).
There's nothing special about improvised weapons. Improvised weapons simply are items, not normally used as weapons, that nobody is proficient in unless they take Catch-Off Guard or Throw Anything or equivalent. That's *all* "improvised" means.
By contrast, there is not a single scrap of evidence in the RAW that, say, enchanting a frying pan turns it into a club.
You're making up a house rule and then trying to pass it off as core rules by shooting down people that disagree with you.
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There is one problem with using "treated as X" rules as a base for arguments on equivalence.
Just because something is "treated as X", does not mean they ARE actually X.
Correct. They are still improvised weapons, but because you can treat them as manufactured weapons, you can get them enchanted even under the eyes of a skeptical DM.
It's a way to show how having an enchanted improvised weapon is not a contradiction of terms.
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Wow. It seems that there are a select number of people with an incredible surplus of free time who want to nitpick the letter of the rules over the spirit of a good time.
Okay, here's taking the letter of the rule in regards to magic arrows being able to retain their magical properties even while used to stab.
Turn to page 376 of the CRB. Under the Arcane Archer prestige class, every one of the AA's class abilities specifically states that the effect takes place when the arrow is fired, except one.
"Arrow of Death (Sp): At 10th level, an arcane archer can
create a special type of slaying arrow that forces the target,
if damaged by the arrow’s attack, to make a Fortitude save
or be slain immediately. The DC of this save is equal to 20
+ the arcane archer’s Charisma modif ier. It takes 1 day to
make a slaying arrow, and the arrow only functions for the
arcane archer who created it. The slaying arrow lasts no
longer than 1 year, and the archer can only have one such
arrow in existence at a time."
Now if we're so intent on the letter of the rules, Arrow of Death specifically states that it's the arrow's attack, not being fired that can produce the slaying effect. Attack's with arrows include stabbing. Therefore, the slaying effect can be used both when fired or used to stab as these are both attacks.
If this were not the case, Arrow of Death would have been written in line with all of the other class abilities that make a point of stating "when fired."
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Wow. It seems that there are a select number of people with an incredible surplus of free time who want to nitpick the letter of the rules over the spirit of a good time.
You could look at it that way.
I prefer to take a broader view. If the only GM that a player was going to have was me, if the only people who were going to play with the guy were the other five people at that table, that day, then I'd allow all sorts of things that aren't legal but are cool. You want to pull a potion out of your belt pouch without provoking an attack of opportunity, as part of your movement to get to a fallen colleague, and then administer it to her as a standard action? (Just to pick an example from last weekend.) It looks cool, go 'head.
But when the same player sits at the next table and tries the same move, it doesn't work, which comes as a rude surprise, because he was expecting it to. And that table GM now has to work to explain the rules, 'cause I couldn't be bothered to. It's a difficult, tense situation, and as the guy who taught that player the wrong rules, I'm to blame.
The more we can hash out here the better prepared we are at the table for situations when these odd corner cases come up. The faster we can adjudicate them, and get back to the fun.
Regarding "incredible surpluses of free time", the game rules are spread all over the place and not organized particularly well. (To use a recent example, can your PC drink a potion underwater? The rules are in the Advanced Race Guide.) Some times this isn't straight-forward, and there's work to be done.
Peace be to you.
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I am a geek, and I am a lawyer, and I love rules. Thats why my undergrad degree was mathematics! I read the rules, I read the rule forums, and when I can, I contribute. I find the sorting of fact to be enjoyable.
I spent the majority of my youth bouncing area to area, and one of my biggest peeves was that every gaming group I joined seemed to have completely different rules. I love the fact that people are willing to take a couple hours per week to make my life easier. I love PFS and groups that follow the PFS rulings/rules because now when I move, I have a good expectation as to what I will actually be playing when I sit down at a table.
Kudos to Chris, I loved his virtual table for a recent game.
/end rant