Ah! I see where you are coming from Weirdo. I didn't intend to imply any sort of unity inside each camp. The rainbow camp is full of people who want a different approach to the paladin... they just don't all agree what the best way to do that is. As for the disunity in the traditionalist camp I suspect that is mere quibbling over what constitutes an alignment violation rather than a fully separate camp of people.
PS: Chaotic aligned people would reject a code ruling their behavior. They would support their free will to decide on any actions they take as the moment inspires them.
Very slippery, the god of accidents was probably involved.
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Carry on citizens. The perpetrators have been arrested for their crimes.
Hama the reason so many house rules get argued outside the house rule forum is because they think they can convince/rant with a much larger audience in the general forums.
Well to be fair, some house rules are pretty f**king fantastic. Often they will just be rejected before they are tried by the orthodox, and then mocked later.
Baffling.
Kind of why I used both convince and rant... some are good some are bad, probably depends on who you ask.
There is always that problem and divide of complexity. Some like rules and house rules to help things to move fast, others want to slow it down for some type of rules intensive feature.
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TOZ, I had no idea there were this many sides to you.
Aranna, I sometimes I slip from "debate/discussion mode" into "rant mode." I try to be conscious about it, especially when the topic is paladins, because many people are highly invested in their viewpoints on that subject. So let me try to transition back onto the main thrust of the topic...
PS: Chaotic aligned people would reject a code ruling their behavior. They would support their free will to decide on any actions they take as the moment inspires them.
I find that's interesting because it implies that a paladin acts the way they do because there's some sort of external force saying "remember you're supposed to do X and not do Y." If that's the case then yes, the code is an imposition on the paladin's free will. However, I believe that a true paladin follows the code because they wholeheartedly believe that it's the right thing to do, and it's the betrayal of their convictions rather than some sort of "breach of contract penalty" that causes them to fall and lose their powers. If that's the case, a chaotic paladin could follow a fairly strict code that represented their deeply held convictions (for example, no slaves, no use of magical compulsions or binding legal contracts) and would lose their powers for betrayal of convictions just like a lawful paladin would.
I find that the "strength of conviction" interpretation of the paladin's code feels more heroic to me, and it's a viewpoint I've seen shared by those who prefer LG-only paladins as well. The paladin isn't supposed to accidentally fall on people with their axe. They don't leave the room when a prisoner is being interrogated because "If I don't know that they're torturing him, it's not against my code." These things are against their core values - they shouldn't be looking for loopholes.
It comes back to trust in the end, and the fact that a person playing a paladin should really be invested in what their character claims to stand for, rather than just accepting a few rules in exchange for power (and trying to get around those rules when it suits them and if they can get away with it).
There is the use of loopholes, but then I wonder also should a player of a paladin play them like a fearless person, or should they be a faith bot.
Because real people do lie, often cheat if they can get away with it, may abuse power or see nothing wrong with its use. Should a minor breach lead to falling, ehh, that I don't buy, but I am also about as strict on clerics as I am on paladins (determined by the faith).
See something like "All people must be free from oppression. I MUST free anyone who is oppressed!" is a rule and by my definition Lawful behavior. Lawful doesn't care which rules or code you follow, it just cares that you follow them.
Chaotic people don't hold to any guiding rules. If they deal with a slaver one day and kill them the next. That's all dependent on the situation. And with a chaotic person situations are all about how you feel about them when they are happening. No rule can cover that.
It always comes down to this.
Either you trust your GM or you don't.
If you don't, you have three options. GM yourself, find a new GM or find a good theraphist to help you deal with your trust issues.
You forgot the fourth option of reccomending the GM to find a good therapist.
This is of course assuming the trust issues are coming from him and not from yourself.
Gorum has Anti-Paladins, John.
Mal from Serenity (Firefly) is chaotic. His rules are fluid. The wind blows west he goes west. He will place people in danger one moment and rescue them later. He will shoot a man who surrendered in one instance and let a villain walk free the next. There are no rules and if there are he sure doesn't believe in them. He has a weird form of honor but doesn't hold to it if it becomes inconvenient. He is a man with no compass. His unpredictability even makes the people he deals with nervous. THAT is chaotic. And you are right about one thing, chaotic isn't random. Chaotic is all about what works in the moment and how you feel about it now. And THAT often changes from day to day.
A rule saying the Gorum follower MUST never run from a fight is a good example of lawful behavior.
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A DM like that will turn any code against the character, written or not.
It is harder to do when a class has a ctual code and when it's vague and left up to them. If a code says that it's okay for a Paladin to act from ambush and a player does and the DM tries to make a charsacter fall then a player can call the DMs judgemnt unfair because according to the code as written he is playing the Paladin imo in charcter. When its left up to the DM and no written code it becomes a trust issue. Too many DMs imo abuse players trust and vice versa.
Now with a game of Palladium fantasy I never had a problem playing a class like the Paladin because what you can od with your alignemnt and code is written out. As a matter fact I had to point that out to more than one DM who came from D&D to Palladium fantasy. Yes they still made judgment calls in certain cases yet no vaguneness in the alignemnts as well as a written code. Made Paladins easier and fun to play. Reduced the instances of players and/or dms vs the Paladin player. More importantly less Dirrty harry and lawful stupid style of Paladins.
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@Aranna - But Mal also has a code he lives by. That code may be anti-establishment, pro-decentralization, etc...but it is still a code.
Paladins of different gods can be very, very different. Diametrically opposed even, but they all have to have a code they live by. The player and the GM should be on the same page about that code, and at times that code will almost certainly come into conflict with best interests of the player and the party.
That is part of the problem of living by a code.
Now if a player doesn't want to live by a code, wants to always be able to act as they wish in their own self interests, that is fine.
They shouldn't play a paladin. In the same way someone who doesn't want to have a curse shouldn't play an oracle.
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Mal's code is one he freely violates. He IS chaotic after all.
Nice quote TOZ... Tell that to the unarmed man he shot in cold blood... you know the one who was just standing there with his arms held up in surrender.
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Mal's code is one he freely violates. He IS chaotic after all.
Nice quote TOZ... Tell that to the unarmed man he shot in cold blood... you know the one who was just standing there with his arms held up in surrender.
Here is where I differ from some GMs. I am fine if some paladins of some gods do something like this. If that is within their code.
But you damn well better define your code clearly before we play and justify why your god requires it.
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In my experience, at least on these forums, too many players want all the benefits without being willing to deal with the drawbacks tied to the benefits.
What benefits?
Do you mean, 'class abilities'?
You know, the things that every class has? And that the other classes manage to have without the 'self-destruct' drawback?
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Really TOZ?
Scene: Haven after the crew of Serenity has gathered to hear Mal's ultimatum speech.
Mal draws his pistol and everyone shuts up wondering if he actually intends to shoot them. But behind them a lone survivor crawls out of the wreckage of the Alliance ship. The man sees them gathered and holds up his arms in surrender... Mal shoots him dead.
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TOZ, I had no idea there were this many sides to you.
Not just on the forums. In real life it's sometimes hard to figure out which TOZ you're talking to at any given moment. Sometimes you end up with 2 or 3 over the course of a single gaming session.
I've personally met :
Bored TOZ
Fascinated TOZ
Confused TOZ
Can't Roll Above a 5 to save me Life TOZ
Can't Roll Under a 15 if I wanted To TOZ
Just said something Dumb and Ticked off the Wife TOZ
Quick Sarcastic Quip TOZ
Smoked Magic Weed TOZ
Bloody Minded TOZ
Maybe TOZ is Chaotic?
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In my experience, at least on these forums, too many players want all the benefits without being willing to deal with the drawbacks tied to the benefits.What benefits?
Do you mean, 'class abilities'?
You know, the things that every class has? And that the other classes manage to have without the 'self-destruct' drawback?
*cough* oracle curse *cough* druid wearing metal *cough* arcane spell failure *cough* lawful monk *cough*
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*cough* oracle curse *cough* druid wearing metal *cough* arcane spell failure *cough* lawful monk *cough*In my experience, at least on these forums, too many players want all the benefits without being willing to deal with the drawbacks tied to the benefits.What benefits?
Do you mean, 'class abilities'?
You know, the things that every class has? And that the other classes manage to have without the 'self-destruct' drawback?
Glad you brought those up:-
-Which Oracle's Curse can make you accidentally lose your Oracle powers when just out shopping?
-How can a Druid 'accidentally' wear metal armour? Does a fallen paladin automatically regain his powers after 24 hours?
-Does a fallen paladin have a 10% failure chance when using paladin powers? Does a wizard risk 'accidentaly' wearing full plate?
-Monks have alignment restictions. I have no problem with paladins falling if they stop being LG aligned, I have no problem with a paladin falling if they commit a single evil act. I do have a problem with a paladin losing his powers when he makes a sarcastic comment, or when he says 'I'm fine' when he has 1 point of damage, or says 'It's raining cats and dogs', or when he breaks a law he didn't know existed nor had any reson to believe existed, or when he saves child 'A' instead of child 'B', or when he saves child 'B' instead of child 'A', or when he follows the teachings of his god, or when he doesn't follow the teachings of his god, etc. etc. ad nauseum....
The hyper-literal interpretation of 'the Code', is the problem, which would be improved if the word 'grossly' was returned.
I'm fine with falling if my behaviour merits it, but no class should lose their abilities on the DM's whim without the player leaving the DM with no alternative.
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If you don't want to play a character that has to be good, a Paladin is a poor choice. So is a cleric of a restrictive god.
These are choices players can make. You can play a fighter or Barbarian, you can even play a ranger. You don't have to play a Paladin if you don't want to be a Paladin anymore than you have to play an evil character if you don't want to be evil.
PS: Chaotic aligned people would reject a code ruling their behavior. They would support their free will to decide on any actions they take as the moment inspires them.
I can't agree with that. Chaotic characters can certainly follow a code - it's just a personal one rather than one imposed by external pressures because they won't be told what to do by anyone else... just themselves.
Even taking whatever action as the moment inspires them is a form of rule or code. It's just a mercurial one.
PS: Chaotic aligned people would reject a code ruling their behavior. They would support their free will to decide on any actions they take as the moment inspires them.
I can't agree with that. Chaotic characters can certainly follow a code - it's just a personal one rather than one imposed by external pressures because they won't be told what to do by anyone else... just themselves.
Even taking whatever action as the moment inspires them is a form of rule or code. It's just a mercurial one.
I call that playing a role Bill. By your logic there is no such thing as a person without a code.
And since when is a mercurial code a real code?
I assume you mean "ever changing" when you say mercurial.
Mal: "I never back down from a fight."
Anara: "Sure you do. You've backed down from plenty of fights."
Mal: "Well... not this fight."
Ahhhh... Mal, my favorite Chaotic with a heart of gold. Well a heart of gold when it matters anyway.
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In my experience, at least on these forums, too many players want all the benefits without being willing to deal with the drawbacks tied to the benefits.What benefits?
Do you mean, 'class abilities'?
You know, the things that every class has? And that the other classes manage to have without the 'self-destruct' drawback?
Paladins have awesome power. They are nigh indestructible. And can destroy evil creatures with great ease. d10 hit die, full bab, full armor, some divine spellcasting, immunity to disease, fear and stuff. Please tell me what other class is this gifted?
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I can't agree with that. Chaotic characters can certainly follow a code - it's just a personal one rather than one imposed by external pressuresPS: Chaotic aligned people would reject a code ruling their behavior. They would support their free will to decide on any actions they take as the moment inspires them.
Then you're not talking about the Pathfinder alignment system, because the Core Rulebook (in the Additional Rules chapter) puts "personal codes" in the purview of the lawful alignment, not the chaotic alignment.
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Paladins have awesome power. They are nigh indestructible. And can destroy evil creatures with great ease. d10 hit die, full bab, full armor, some divine spellcasting, immunity to disease, fear and stuff. Please tell me what other class is this gifted?In my experience, at least on these forums, too many players want all the benefits without being willing to deal with the drawbacks tied to the benefits.What benefits?
Do you mean, 'class abilities'?
You know, the things that every class has? And that the other classes manage to have without the 'self-destruct' drawback?
Wizard, Druid, Oracle, Inquisitor, Cleric...
All the tier 1 and tier 2 classes.
In 1st ed AD&D, paladins were overpowered, but balanced by their drawbacks.
Since 3.0, paladins have been balanced against the other full-BAB classes without the paladin restrictions!
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Then you're not talking about the Pathfinder alignment system, because the Core Rulebook (in the Additional Rules chapter) puts "personal codes" in the purview of the lawful alignment, not the chaotic alignment.I can't agree with that. Chaotic characters can certainly follow a code - it's just a personal one rather than one imposed by external pressuresPS: Chaotic aligned people would reject a code ruling their behavior. They would support their free will to decide on any actions they take as the moment inspires them.
Jiggy, can you give the precise quote and page ?
I looked for it but could not find it.BTW preventing a Chaotic person from deciding to follow a code he created by himself and that suits him just fine seems to me to be curtailing his freedom, not enhancing it.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Chaotic characters can certainly follow a code - it's just a personal one rather than one imposed by external pressuresThen you're not talking about the Pathfinder alignment system, because the Core Rulebook (in the Additional Rules chapter) puts "personal codes" in the purview of the lawful alignment, not the chaotic alignment.Jiggy, can you give the precise quote and page ?
Can't give you a page number as I'm referencing the Official PRD instead of a PDF/hardcover, but here are some quotes from the Additional Rules chapter (bolding mine):
A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.
A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts.
She has no love of order and holds no illusions that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble.
As you can see, the idea of a "code" of behavior, including a personal one, is a lawful concept.
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The thing about Lawful is that the character defines what the law is. They just have to be consistent.
A chaotic character does not have to be consistent, and in fact hate rules and being told what to do.
Mal could be argued either way, the alignment system is vague like that.
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In my experience, at least on these forums, too many players want all the benefits without being willing to deal with the drawbacks tied to the benefits.What benefits?
Do you mean, 'class abilities'?
You know, the things that every class has? And that the other classes manage to have without the 'self-destruct' drawback?
So what happens when your wizard gets separated from his spellbook? Oh yeah, guess you forgot about that.
The code is a part of the paladin. The paladin being able to fall is a part of what makes the class unique. If you want a divine fighter who can be any alignment then make a fighter cleric.
The best ones!Smoked Magic Weed TOZ
Bloody Minded TOZ
:)
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Paladins have awesome power. They are nigh indestructible. And can destroy evil creatures with great ease. d10 hit die, full bab, full armor, some divine spellcasting, immunity to disease, fear and stuff. Please tell me what other class is this gifted?In my experience, at least on these forums, too many players want all the benefits without being willing to deal with the drawbacks tied to the benefits.What benefits?
Do you mean, 'class abilities'?
You know, the things that every class has? And that the other classes manage to have without the 'self-destruct' drawback?
Wizard, Druid, Oracle, Inquisitor, Cleric...
All the tier 1 and tier 2 classes.
In 1st ed AD&D, paladins were overpowered, but balanced by their drawbacks.
Since 3.0, paladins have been balanced against the other full-BAB classes without the paladin restrictions!
Sooooooo go and get an Atonement spell. Costs a hell of a lot less than it does the fighter to replace his sword and armor, or a wizard to replace his spellbook full of spells.
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In my experience, at least on these forums, too many players want all the benefits without being willing to deal with the drawbacks tied to the benefits.What benefits?
Do you mean, 'class abilities'?
You know, the things that every class has? And that the other classes manage to have without the 'self-destruct' drawback?
So what happens when your wizard gets separated from his spellbook? Oh yeah, guess you forgot about that.
The code is a part of the paladin. The paladin being able to fall is a part of what makes the class unique. If you want a divine fighter who can be any alignment then make a fighter cleric.
There's no point criticising a viewpoint I don't hold! I'm entirely happy about having to remain LG; I'm entirely happy about falling if I commit a single evil act!
I'm not happy about falling just because my DM and I have slightly differing views about what my character would do in any particular circumstance!
Players make the decisions for their PC, not the DM. But a hyper-literal interpretation of 'the Code' means that the DM is making all the important decisions for the paladin, or the paladin loses all their powers!
That is the objection, not the alignment restriction!
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In my experience, at least on these forums, too many players want all the benefits without being willing to deal with the drawbacks tied to the benefits.What benefits?
Do you mean, 'class abilities'?
You know, the things that every class has? And that the other classes manage to have without the 'self-destruct' drawback?
So what happens when your wizard gets separated from his spellbook? Oh yeah, guess you forgot about that.
The code is a part of the paladin. The paladin being able to fall is a part of what makes the class unique. If you want a divine fighter who can be any alignment then make a fighter cleric.
There's no point criticising a viewpoint I don't hold! I'm entirely happy about having to remain LG; I'm entirely happy about falling if I commit a single evil act!
I'm not happy about falling just because my DM and I have slightly differing views about what my character would do in any particular circumstance!
Players make the decisions for their PC, not the DM. But a hyper-literal interpretation of 'the Code' means that the DM is making all the important decisions for the paladin, or the paladin loses all their powers!
That is the objection, not the alignment restriction!
Then you need to sit down with your DM and compare notes as to how the two of you interpret the code and come to some sort of agreement.