Goblin Squad Member
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So one immersion breaker for me always comes up when the party has a 16 strength half-orc and an 18 strength halfling. "Realistically", without the aid of magic items, the biggest, strongest halfling would still be weaker than the smallest, weakest half-orc.
I understand why it is the way it is: you don't want every warrior feeling they can't play a halfling. The tabletop game has numerous ways for a low strength warrior to be just as good as a high strength warrior.
If PfO included training paths for low strength characters to still be competetive in melee vs. high strength characters would you support more realistic racial caps for strength?
Or is it just one of those things you have to overlook in the name of game balance?
the thing with the stat points is this, after racial adjustments, an 18 is still an 18, the racial adjustment take this into consideration. think of it like this, that 16 strength half orc is weaker then his 18 strength half orc brothers while that 18 str halfling is just as strong as that 18 str half orc that is laughing at the 16 str hal orc because he can not move the same amount of weight.
to further break it down, think on this example. ( not using actual weight from book, just using a simple comparison)
a str of 10 can lift 100 pounds
a halfling that rolls a ten after racial adjustments is now at an 8 so he can only move 80 pounds
an orc with a natural 10 roll after racial adjustments is at a 12 and can lift 120 pounds.
realistically with out the aid of magic items your biggest strongest halfing could be stronger then you weakest smallest orc. all because those stat points are absolute universal measures of their power.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Carrying capacity in the PnP game is affected by size. A max strength halfling (16) has the same ability to lift weight as a strength 11 half-orc. That means the strongest halfling is only as strong as a below average half-orc.
It's been a long time since read the rules, so I don't remember if any skills have a size modifier where appropriate. The only place where small characters are equivalent to medium character is in combat and that is entirely a game balance issue.
I doubt that any of this will be applied to the MMO, not without small characters also getting some boosts to compensate, but it all really just sounds like unnecessary extra effort with no real gain for the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is not a good way to do this without massively hurting small races in melee combat.
Aside from encumbrance issues in combat the races should be able to compete. Now if PfO uses weight to restrict how much gear you can carry i suspect that small races will need extra balancing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ability scores are not really an in character thing anyhow, so if you are trying to manage your disbelief, don't worry about the scores of other players. In the online game I bet you will not be able to see other peoples scores. So this shouldn't be an issue for you. Also the scores are not used the same way in the online game as it is in the table top game.
So one immersion breaker for me always comes up when the party has a 16 strength half-orc and an 18 strength halfling. "Realistically", without the aid of magic items, the biggest, strongest halfling would still be weaker than the smallest, weakest half-orc.
Half-Orcs are no stronger than Humans. Halfings have a -2 STR adjustment while Humans/Half-Orcs CAN put a +2 to STR.
So Halflings are -2 to -4 'off' of Human/Half-Orcs in the STR department assuming equal pointbuy investment,but that also means that differing pointbuy investment can and does allow some Halflings to be stronger than some Humans/Half-Orcs.
(who can dump STR down to 7 if they so wish)
There is zero evidence that this is anything else than exactly what is intended.
So I would say that this ISN'T 'one of those things you have to overlook in the name of gamebalance',
rather, it's one of those things that you have to not invent from thin air in the first place.
An 18 str Halfling is only possible with magic items in the first place, assuming normal stat generation.
I don't think it's really known exactly how PFOnline will work, not being d20 the exact stat scores/modifiers are not likely to look exactly like PRPG Tabletop, but given that they intend to recreate the flavor of the Tabletop game, and there's no reason to doubt that the intent is for SOME Halflings to be stronger than SOME Human/Half-Orcs/neutral or positive STR mod races, I'm assuming that statement will also be true for PFOnline.
I hope PFO doesn't go the route DDO went. With really high stats that you could never hope to get in a PnP game.
Well, they're not using a d20 system (they legally can't even if Paizo wanted them to, due to SRD system licence), so what ability scores are numerically is pretty much irrelevant, there is no 1:1 comparison to the Tabletop game ability scores. If PFOnline allows STR = 15,800, that just doesn't mean anything compared to Tabletop norms. Large areas of the game will mechanically work different than the Tabletop game. That has been repeatedly stated by GW/Ryan Dancy.
I'm more concerned with the suspension of disbelief. The muscle mass of a 50lb creature shouldn't physically allow them to be as strong as a 200lb creature.
maybe you should start a thread detailing every aspect of Pathfinder and Golarion that isn't physically plausible. in the real world, efficiency of muscle mass varies widely between species, e.g. ants have huge efficiency compared to larger species. in the world of Golarion, magic exists, and has existed over the timespan in which all species were born/created. i don't know though, maybe everybody who plays Pathfinder is just living in a fantasy land :-)
If they are 8th level, start at 1st with 16, then 17 @ 4th, next 18 @ 8th.An 18 str Halfling is only possible with magic items in the first place, assuming normal stat generation.
so again, if half-orcs are not putting any level adjustments into STR, then by the very explicit parameters of the game world, they have no STR advantage over top-tier STR halflings who put all adjustments into STR. and if those humans/half-orcs are venerable age category (but halfling isn't, just like we are considering different stat investments for these hypothetical halfling/human comparisons), they have further STR penalties as well, making them even weaker than the halfling... big deal. i'm not really sure of the basis of the original stat comparison, 16 vs. 18. those are derived from very different point buy and choice of stat bonus allocations, but if that is the name of the game, why wasn't the half-orc dumped down to 7 STR? because that would hilight the absurdity of this comparison?
this is exactly how the world is specified to work. if PFO goes against this, they are creating a divergence from Pathfinder/Golarion, which is their explicit goal to emulate. good luck on changing that.
BTW, you were attributing my words to Rafkin in your last post. Quote Fail.
EDIT: for fun, let's compare how many HPs an 8th level Halfling Fighter has, compared to, say, an Elephant:
8d10(60)+8(favored)+24(CON+3)= 92 hps ... Elephant = 93 hps
Or hey, check out other creatures' STR scores: Imps have 10 STR, Lemures have 11 STR. Imps are Tiny, Lemures are Medium.
(those are with standard stat arrays, if you built a pointbuy Imp, it could easily have 18 STR or near it)
It's already been laid out what the effects of Size on Carrying Capacity are (not to mention things like CMB checks), being Smaller makes it so you just cannot catch up there even with identical or slightly superior stats. Other combat stats are differentially affected, CMB being penalized by Small size, while normal Attack rolls being benefitted, while Small weapons have small base damage... But the STR is being applied thru a smaller area so that area will penetrate more. But this is how the game works. Why would Pathfinder Online change it, beyond that they are changing the mechanics whole-sale, albeit with an eye for online gameplay, not for changing the world-flavor implications. Re: World flavor of Golarion, halflings are just like their stats say.
So one immersion breaker for me always comes up when the party has a 16 strength half-orc and an 18 strength halfling. "Realistically", without the aid of magic items, the biggest, strongest halfling would still be weaker than the smallest, weakest half-orc.
So are you really proposing that (in a game using 3.x/PRPG stat mechanics, NOT PFO) Halflings would be CAPPED at 6 STR?
Since Half-Orcs (identical stat-wise to Humans) have a minimum STR score of 7?I mean, propose what you want, but you should realize just how far from the actual game your understanding is.
I'm still just feeling that your mentioning of Half-Orcs is indicating that you are believing they are especially strong of a race, when they are no different than Humans in this regard.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So one immersion breaker for me always comes up when the party has a 16 strength half-orc and an 18 strength halfling. "Realistically", without the aid of magic items, the biggest, strongest halfling would still be weaker than the smallest, weakest half-orc.So are you really proposing that (in a game using 3.x/PRPG stat mechanics, NOT PFO) Halflings would be CAPPED at 6 STR?
Since Half-Orcs (identical stat-wise to Humans) have a minimum STR score of 7?
I mean, propose what you want, but you should realize just how far from the actual game your understanding is.
I'm still just feeling that your mentioning of Half-Orcs is indicating that you are believing they are especially strong of a race, when they are no different than Humans in this regard.
It was more of a comparison of body mass.
Male Halfling max weight: 38 lbs.
Male half-orc min weight: 164 lbs.
At 18 strength the half-orc could lift 300 lbs over his head. A little less than twice his weight. (as the smallest possible half-orc)
At 18 strength the halfling could lift 225 lbs over his head. That's almost 6 times his weight. That's about 3 times stronger than the Olympic world record holders.
Mechanics aside. Its an absurdity that is a pet peeve.
Moral of the story: Don't underestimate Halflings :-)
The huge animeish weapons everyone always b%#%#es about are fist off, not the status quo, and second are based off of real weapons. that saw real combat, and were effective. I bring your attention to the Zanbatō (斬馬刀?), an especially large, curved type of fictional sword used by characters in Japanese anime and manga. Books written about nihonto (traditional Japanese swords) make no references to zanbatō as being actual swords used in feudal Japan. The name zanbatō literally translates to "horse-slaying sword" or "horse-chopping saber". Replicas of zanbatō swords can be found for sale in tourist shops and stands in Japan.
Extremely long Zanbatō type swords existed in Japan as in the nodachi (the inspiration for sephiroth's sword) or ōdachi; these swords, along with the phonetically similar zhan ma dao Chinese sword, may have been the inspiration for the creation of Zanbatō as an anime and manga weapon. A Chinese anti-cavalry weapon of the Song Dynasty written also as 斬馬刀 (zhǎn mǎ dāo) is of similar proportion to a Zanbatō, although it differs in form. Surviving examples include a sword that might resemble a nagamaki in construction; it had a wrapped handle 37 cm (15 in) long, like the Zanbatō. However, the blade differed, having only a slight curve in the last half, whereas the Zanbatō's curve stretches the length of the blade and handle, similar to a katana.
The fictional interpretation of the weapon consists of a large, wide blade attached to an extended, pole-like hilt. The sword, and variations of it, are used by many characters in anime and video games. These interpretations often simply depict the weapon as an over sized sword or being imbued with magical properties. However, the weapon which most closely resembles such instances is the eku, or "wooden oar".
A few notable series featuring Zanbatō include
The manga series Rurouni Kenshin, where major character Sagara Sanosuke uses a polearm he refers to as a Zanbatō as his signature weapon,[1]
In the classic manga Kozure Ōkami, known in the west as Lone Wolf and Cub, the main character Ogami Ittō employs a swordmanship technique called Sui'ō-ryū Zanbatō as one of his most lethal attacks, although using a dōtanuki to perform it.
In the manga/anime Naruto four of the seven swords of the mist(Kubikiribōchō, Samehada, Hiramekarei, and Shibuki) are zanbatos.
Also in episode 137 - A Town of Outlaws, The Shadow of the Fuma Clan it is said that a Fuma's sword is one.
In the game Franchise series Final Fantasy VII both the main character Cloud and main villain Sephiroth wield massive Zanbato style blades, known as The "Buster Sword" (relatively short and very large) and "Masamune" (extremely long and thin).
In the tenth episode of the Final Fantasy saga, the Aeon Yojimbo can use a Zanmato katana to cut down each type of game enemy.
In manga/anime series Bleach the main character's (Kurosaki Ichigo) sword takes the form of an Butcher knife styled Zanbato.
The manga/anime series Berserk also has its main character (Guts) wields a Zanbato.
They are also used in popular RPG series Fire Emblem, where it is a weapon specialized against mounted units[2]
In the manga/anime series Freezing a supporting character's (Ticy Phenyl) volt weapon is a large, strait zanbatō.
The game Super Scribblenauts also has a usable Zanbatō.
In the online game Dungeon Fighter Online the sword wielding Slayer class can use and specialize in the Zanbatos.
In Samurai Sentai Shinkenger/Power Rangers Samurai, a Zanbato-esque is wielded by ShinkenRed/Red Samurai Ranger. Also in Kaizoku Sentai Gokaiger one of Shinken Gokaioh's weapons is a Zanbatō similar to Shinkenred's.
why can't people ever do any god damned research.
Also keep in mind with the stats for str dex con wis int and cha, what the players get for those stats is not the normal stats you would see commoners with. even kings would not have stats as high, the stat rolls for the players are literally the exceptionally rare, unique, and of the heroic and legendary mythological types.
...are absurd....
The huge animeish weapons...
no more absurd then a chainsaw bayonet.
or a nodachi, During the late Kamakura period (1185–1333) samurai began to use extremely long swords ( nodachi or odachi, the same blade those absurd weapons are based off of in anime)
and no more absurd then in some Chinese martial arts, Bagua Zhang being perhaps the best known example, over-sized weapons are used for training purposes. This is done to condition the martial artist to handle a normal-sized weapon more efficiently
or a Tessen (鉄扇?) were folding fans with outer spokes made of heavy plates of iron which were designed to look like normal, harmless folding fans or solid clubs shaped to look like a closed fan. Samurai could take these to places where swords or other overt weapons were not allowed, and some swordsmanship schools included training in the use of the tessen as a weapon. The tessen was also used for fending off arrows and darts, as a throwing weapon, and as an aid in swimming.
or a a 16th century renaissance two handed infantry sword which you can see here is clearly taller then the man wielding it, just because it looks big heavy and unwieldy does not mean it is.
and just so i am crystal clear for my arguments sake, tiny Japanese woman holding a ABSURD sized katana, aka nodachi/odachi/often erroneously called a zanbato. she does not have an 18 str, i doubt if she has a 13 str. and shes not real straining to hold that sword which is much taller then she is.
and then of course there is the zhanmadao (Chinese: 斬馬刀; pinyin: zhǎn mǎ dāo; literally "horse chopping saber") which was a single-bladed anti-cavalry Chinese sword. It is especially common during the Song Dynasty (960-1279).
both of the nodachi/odachi and the zhanmadao are actually about the size of the zwiehander while the zanbato was the size of a claymore.
The absurd is not so absurd when you get into the history of the weapons themselves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rationalization is not reasoning.
Anime weaponry is absurd. A chainsaw bayonet is also absurd.
I have a claymore on my wall, and it is not absurd but would be quite challenging to wield in combat for more than a few minutes. The two handed infantry sword is well proportioned, but would be difficult to use effectively in personal combat.
However some of the swords I see in GW2 or depicted in screenshots of Final Fantasy or Kingdoms of Amalur would weigh more than the characters wielding them.
Rationalization is not reasoning.
Anime weaponry is absurd. A chainsaw bayonet is also absurd.
I have a claymore on my wall, and it is not absurd but would be quite challenging to wield in combat for more than a few minutes. The two handed infantry sword is well proportioned, but would be difficult to use effectively in personal combat.
However some of the swords I see in GW2 or depicted in screenshots of Final Fantasy or Kingdoms of Amalur would weigh more than the characters wielding them.
The picture of the infantry sword comes from a very good article explaining how it is no where near as hard to use and heavy as we are lead to believe by misconceptions of medieval weaponry.
read it here its rather interesting if you have the time.
I actually have a replica of cloud's buster sword from final fantasy 7 and its not that heavy, granted its also very well balanced and made from a "lighter" metal than the typical "authentic" heavy crap you can buy at any pawnshop. and while a chainsaw bayonet is absurd, it works. and I could see numerous uses for it. though its far to impractical for my needs when a hatchet and machete will do the same thing much more silently.
Mine are steel.
Thank you for the link.
steel is good stuff. especially if its Damascus haha
I haven't yet found a Damascene blade I could affordsteel is good stuff. especially if its Damascus hahaMine are steel.
Thank you for the link.
Museum replicas limited has a couple of Damascus steel swords on the $400-500 range. Their stuff is decent quality, not as nice as Angel sword, but better then pawn shop grade.
I have a Angel sword from their Bright Knights line. It's. a bastard sword (hand and a half). It's very light, very strong. Only thing is its length takes some getting used to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My preferred weapon (and next acquisition): Info and image.
I've got a lot in the way of muscle and my favored sparring methods involve a lot of moving around and being very aggressive. It suits me. Heavy, yes, but still quite wield-y - and the strength of a backsword for chopping is nice. Dependable, durable, brutal. I don't have the reflex speed I'd like to (though I'm working on it), but this suits me and is what I plan on working with the most.
Plus, Sharpe used one, and he's awesome. Cool Factor > Physics, right?