Unseen servant and a crossbow...

[seebs]

So far as I can tell, an unseen servant can reload a heavy crossbow in a round. I do not see an action type listed in the spell for telling the servant to do something. I have also not been able to find an action type for "give an object to someone standing next to you" or "receive an object from someone who hands it to you". I bet you can see where this is going.

So far as I can tell, if you are standing still, so you aren't moving, you can fire a crossbow, hand it to an unseen servant, then the unseen servant performs the full-round action of loading it and hands it back...

This seems like a pretty significant benefit, although it does tie up the unseen servant completely, and prevents it from moving around while doing this.

But I would be more confident of this if I could find an action type for handing something to someone, or an indication of whether you even have to hand the crossbow to the servant for it to reload.

[Dust Raven]

For object in hand, I've generally ruled it's a free action to hand off/receive/take and object from a willing, aware and cooperative ally. If the object is not in hand, but otherwise accessible (such as a sword still in its scabbard, or an object in a handy haversack), it's a move action (effectively manipulating an object).

Directing a spell is a move action, though a directed spell effect would continue as per its last directions provided it's something that can be repeated without further action on the part of the caster.

So you'd cast Unseen Servant, then spend a move action directing it to load heavy crossbows handed to it, then use a free action to hand it your heavy crossbow (which you hopefully had in hand from the previous round). The Servant takes its action to load the heavy crossbow. On your next turn, you use a free action to take the crossbow from the Servant, fire it, then hand it back for the Servant to use its action to reload. Repeat.

This is the way I've ruled in previous games when instead of an unseen servant, a PC took on a hireling to carry his heavy gear and load his heavy crossbow.

[LeDM]

There's only one problem, the unseen servant can only lift 20 pounds. Certainly not enough to reload a crossbow (unless it's crank operated like a mini-balista or something). I love the idea though. Maybe an 'empowered' unseen servant could do it. :)

[Azaelas Fayth]

All crossbows short of a Modern or Hand Crossbow use cranks.

[LeDM]

I stand corrected. I always imagined big medieval crossbows (the kind with the step-through hook on the front).

[Rickmeister]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

All crossbows short of a Modern or Hand Crossbow use cranks.

+1

[LeDM]

In anyone is interested (totally not rules forum material), I got interested in how they did load crossbows fast in the middle ages. Here's a neat blog entry on fast medieval crossbow techniques.

http://www.benjaminrose.com/post/fast-archery-techniques-part-3-the-crossbo w/

[gourry187]

I would make the hand off or take from a swift action. It's a little more than just dropping the weapon.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Truth is a trained combatant can hand equipment off faster than they can drop it.

[thistledown]

Why would you need to hand it off? The Unseen Servent is shapeless. Just keep holding the crossbow and working the trigger. The US just handles your ammo and turns the crank.

[Dust Raven]

thistledown wrote:

Why would you need to hand it off? The Unseen Servent is shapeless. Just keep holding the crossbow and working the trigger. The US just handles your ammo and turns the crank.

I suppose that's true. Unseen Servants aren't really creatures and can't even be directly attacked. I'm not even sure it occupies a square. I see no reason it can't reload a crossbow you are holding.

[Baron_Bismarck]

Dust Raven wrote:

thistledown wrote:

Why would you need to hand it off? The Unseen Servent is shapeless. Just keep holding the crossbow and working the trigger. The US just handles your ammo and turns the crank.

I suppose that's true. Unseen Servants aren't really creatures and can't even be directly attacked. I'm not even sure it occupies a square. I see no reason it can't reload a crossbow you are holding.

I would think that to make this work you would need QTY-2 crossbows. I.E. Shoot one whilst the other is being reloaded. The servant wont reload it any FASTER than the PC; But it CAN do while the PC is doing something else... my 2 cu....

[Atarlost]

You could probably do the handoff thing with a light crossbow (and use your move action to direct your ball lightning or something) but for heavies or repeaters I'd agree you'd need two.

[David Haller]

Not going to work.

An unseen servant "can open only normal doors, drawers, lids, and the like"; it "can trigger traps and such, but it can exert only 20 pounds of force, which is not enough to activate certain pressure plates and other devices."

A crossbow, being "an other device" than a door or box, is beyond the capabilities of the servant. Basically, the role of an unseen servant is to open things, and to perform skills which can be used untrained in tasks which can be resolved at DC 10 or less (such as serving tea and biscuits, or whatever).

[The Shifty Mongoose]

What about loading a new case of bolts into a repeating crossbow? Perhaps a light repeating one?

A case of 5 bolts for a light or heavy repeating crossbow is 1 pound, and it's a full-round AoO-provoking action to put in a new case. The actual reloading itself is a free action, so when you run out of bolts, your unseen servant can add a new one in.

Though it'd probably be better to already have an extra case on the ground or something when you run out of bolts. Maybe if you ask politely, your spell-casting team-mate could cast the spell and carry an extra case or two.

[Dust Raven]

David Haller wrote:

Not going to work.

An unseen servant "can open only normal doors, drawers, lids, and the like"; it "can trigger traps and such, but it can exert only 20 pounds of force, which is not enough to activate certain pressure plates and other devices."

A crossbow, being "an other device" than a door or box, is beyond the capabilities of the servant. Basically, the role of an unseen servant is to open things, and to perform skills which can be used untrained in tasks which can be resolved at DC 10 or less (such as serving tea and biscuits, or whatever).

I'm pretty sure you should reread the part about "certain pressure plates and other devices." That means some, not all. The purpose of an unseen servant is to perform any task which doesn't require a skill check (or a routine enough task the DC of the skill check is 10 or less). I'm sure you wouldn't argue an unseen servant could never operate a lever. Also, any character with a strength score of 1 or higher can load a crossbow, so strength is not the issue.

Although I completely agree an unseen servant cannot open a heavy crossbow, seeing it is not at all like a normal door, drawer or lid.

[seebs]

You're reading "it is not enough to activate (certain pressure plates and other devices)", thus, "it is not enough to activate certain pressure plates, and it is not enough to activate other devices". I'm reading "it is not enough to activate certain (pressure plates and other devices)", meaning "it is not enough to activate certain pressure plates, and it is not enough to activate certain other devices". Which is true; there are devices which require more than 20 pounds of force to operate. But a heavy crossbow isn't one.

The reason I think you only need one crossbow to do this is simply the way time works in D&D and Pathfinder: Full-round actions happen in sequence, despite each of them taking "a full round". Which is to say, after my turn is done, my crossbow is unloaded. The unseen servant now gets a turn, and it can take a full-round action. Reloading the heavy crossbow is a full-round action, so it can do that. Then my turn comes up again. It doesn't matter that the unseen servant isn't any faster than I am; what matters is that it is an independent actor, with its own turns. (Compare it to, say, a hireling who is loading a crossbow.)

This is subtly different from special cases like spells with a casting time of one full round, which do not take effect until the beginning of the caster's next turn. Loading a heavy crossbow isn't like that; there's nothing saying it doesn't take effect until the end of the loader's next turn, and you don't lose your heavy crossbow reload if you're damaged during the time between when you take the full-round action and when it is completed on your next turn.

So the things I haven't found are:
1. An actual specific rule anywhere on handing items to people or taking items from them.
2. A clear answer as to what's involved with causing an unseen servant to take action.

I think this is a blind spot; the rules didn't anticipate anyone using unseen servant in combat, so there's no mention of action types. My GM's thought is that it should be the same class of action as ordering a hireling to do something, thus a free action ("speak"). I do note the move action to "direct a spell", but if you look at the description:

"Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell requiers a move action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity or require concentration."

Redirecting a spell is a substantially more involved thing than ordering someone to do something. So contrast the description of, say, Flaming Sphere:

"The sphere moves as long as you actively direct it (a move action for you)."

By contrast, the Unseen Servant spell says "... that performs simple tasks at your command." No mention of move actions, and it can perform longer tasks, like "run and fetch things". It has a base speed of 15 feet, so running and fetching something within range can easily take it several rounds; you just give it one command, and the rest happens. I think this is more in line with Summon Monster, which makes no mention of an action type for directing the summoned monsters, and I think that comes under "speak" too, because it's limited to "if you can communicate with them."

While we're at it, another question came up:

Obviously, the unseen servant can be affected by area-of-effect powers, because it can be killed by six points of AoE damage. What about other AoE powers? Is its speed affected by haste or slow?

[David Haller]

My concern here, from a balance perspective, is that it would permit iterative attacks with a heavy crossbow - you just have multiple unseen servants so a different one is loading the crossbow between firings.

Or - not stopping at crossbows - why not have an unseen servant which draws ones sword for one, thus duplicating the quick draw feat? This is certainly doable if we consider a hand-off to be a free or swift action.

(That said, a higher level spell which can assist in combat, such as unseen squire or the like, would be a nifty spell to research!)

[mdt]

David Haller wrote:

My concern here, from a balance perspective, is that it would permit iterative attacks with a heavy crossbow - you just have multiple unseen servants so a different one is loading the crossbow between firings.

Or - not stopping at crossbows - why not have an unseen servant which draws ones sword for one, thus duplicating the quick draw feat? This is certainly doable if we consider a hand-off to be a free or swift action.

(That said, a higher level spell which can assist in combat, such as unseen squire or the like, would be a nifty spell to research!)

No worries on that front. The unseen servant can't take it's full round reload action until the character finishes their action. You can't interrupt someone elses action unless you do a readied action, and you can't ready a full round action to reload a heavy crossbow. You could do this with a light crossbow, but let's look at it :

If you wanted 3 iterative attacks, you'd have to cast unseen servant 3 times (3 rounds), give each the order to ready to reload the crossbow the Nth time it is empty (1st, 2nd, 3rd). Which can be done after cating with the move action, so that's ok. So on the 4th round of combat, you could start iterative attacking with your crossbow. And you don't do anything else the first 3 rounds.

SOOOOO not overpowered.

EDIT : Oh, and before anyone points out 1/hour per level on unseen servant, he only moves 15 ft a round, slowing the caster down. Also, he'd still have to direct them once the combat started, losing his first round of combat (two actions, one each for the first two unseen servants), then only be able to attack once the second round of combat (need to direct the 3rd servant).

[Dust Raven]

I'd hardly say expending multiple 1st level spells and spending gold on extra equipment in order to get iterative attacks to be unbalancing.

Using an unseen servant to draw weapons or other gear for you is pointless. It takes a move action to direct the servant, same as to draw a weapon. I'd still do though, just for the coolness.

"Spirit, my sword!" And my sword flies out of its scabbard and into my hand, seemingly of its own accord.

[yeti1069]

Even if you assume that directing the Unseen Servant is a free action...you're spending a spell slot to replicate a (rather weak) feat (Quick Draw or Rapid Reload), and doing it rather poorly at that. There are many other spells that replicate many much better feats than those two.

And what does it end up meaning?
It means that you get to fire a crossbow once each round, or once per round per US with a loaded crossbow for you to grab. You say that this seems too strong for a heavy crossbow, but really, it's not THAT big a step up from the light crossbow in any way, and now you're spending (spells*possible number of attacks) for essential +1 damage and Rapid Reload on a light crossbow. That hardly seems problematic to me.

The US can't reload your weapon in the middle of your turn, so at best you're looking at using multiple servants, each holding a loaded crossbow that you can grab from them for free, fire, then hand back for free, and allow the to spend he standard or full-round action to keep you loaded. In other words, we're looking at turning a crossbow into a bow with a better crit range and worse multiplier, a better damage die (maybe), the expenditure of multiple level 1 spells, and the managing of those spells (even as free actions, you still have a bunch of crossbows floating in the air around you held by easily killable things that are going to be attracting some attention). Well, for the damage die, you could just cast Gravity Bow. Would you complain about turning a spear (1d8; 20/x3) into a bastard sword (1d10; 19-20/x2) for a number of level 1 spells equal to the number of attacks you get in a round? No, because that's fairly irrelevant.

[David Haller]

Yes, well, this is where a number of simulacra of the party's arcane spellcaster, all casting unseen servant and using their actions to direct them, grant a whole adventuring party limitless reloads and quick-draws!

(Hey, it could happen).

[seebs]

David Haller wrote:

My concern here, from a balance perspective, is that it would permit iterative attacks with a heavy crossbow - you just have multiple unseen servants so a different one is loading the crossbow between firings.

Or - not stopping at crossbows - why not have an unseen servant which draws ones sword for one, thus duplicating the quick draw feat? This is certainly doable if we consider a hand-off to be a free or swift action.

(That said, a higher level spell which can assist in combat, such as unseen squire or the like, would be a nifty spell to research!)

Pretty sure that can't happen -- the servants can't take their turns *during* my turn.

One shot per round with a heavy crossbow, for which I give up the ability to command that servant to do other things, doesn't seem horribly unbalanced. It's only marginally better than rapid reload or just using a shortbow (rog/wiz, I have options).

This is a character who is in principle carefully munchkinned AWAY from combat functionality (diviner specialist, using evocation and necromancy as opposition schools; on study, I've concluded that at 8th level, my direct damage spell, singular, is acid splash), but it turns out that if you heavily optimize for utility, you're pretty useful anyway.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Isn't there an Arcane discovery that lets you negate a Opposed School?

[Blueluck]

LeDM wrote:

http://www.benjaminrose.com/post/fast-archery-techniques-part-3-the-crossbo w/

This is a great article! Thank you.

.

Players have been trying to use Unseen Servant to load crossbows since the 1970's. (It's right up there with riding a Tenser's Floating Disk, and writing down a carefully worded Wish.) It's a cool idea! But, there are a few reasons not to allow it:

1) Unseen servants are not proficient with any weapons. Sure, cocking and loading a crossbow seems easy, but it's more complicated than firing a crossbow, so would require some sort of training - which we call proficiency.

2) It would give the same (or better) benefit as the magic weapon property speed, which costs at least 24,000 gold. Cheating the prices, for the same reason that you can't make Bracers of Armor +4 by enchanting an item of always-on Mage Armor, is against the rules. Prices exist for game-balance reasons.

3) There are higher level spells that makes stronger, smarter, servants (simulacrum), and have similar effects on weapons (haste). Generally speaking, lower level magic can't simulate higher level spells, only the other way around.

[seebs]

Blueluck wrote:

LeDM wrote:

http://www.benjaminrose.com/post/fast-archery-techniques-part-3-the-crossbo w/

This is a great article! Thank you.

.

Players have been trying to use Unseen Servant to load crossbows since the 1970's. (It's right up there with riding a Tenser's Floating Disk, and writing down a carefully worded Wish.) It's a cool idea! But, there are a few reasons not to allow it:

1) Unseen servants are not proficient with any weapons. Sure, cocking and loading a crossbow seems easy, but it's more complicated than firing a crossbow, so would require some sort of training - which we call proficiency.

No, it wouldn't.

Look through the rules. Do you see anything, anywhere, saying that you can't use a heavy crossbow if you're not proficient with it? You do not. The sum total of the penalty is a -4 to attack rolls.

If there were a rule stating that you cannot reload the crossbow without proficiency, then that would be a compelling argument. There's not, so it isn't.

Quote:

2) It would give the same (or better) benefit as the magic weapon property speed, which costs at least 24,000 gold. Cheating the prices, for the same reason that you can't make Bracers of Armor +4 by enchanting an item of always-on Mage Armor, is against the rules. Prices exist for game-balance reasons.

This is an interesting argument that there ought to be a prohibition, but that's not an argument that there is one. It's also not clear to me that committing a spell slot to a temporary enhancement to your combat ability is particularly unfair when compared to the enhancement.

Furthermore, I absolutely do not accept the claim that this is "the same (or better)" benefit than the weapon property "speed". Speed lets you make an additional attack in the same round. No one has argued, that I've seen, that you could have the crossbow reloaded fast enough to take another shot in the same round.

The most it gets you is a little better than Rapid Reload, since it takes away the move action to reload, but at the cost of having to use up a spell slot and restrict your movement substantially.

Quote:

3) There are higher level spells that makes stronger, smarter, servants (simulacrum), and have similar effects on weapons (haste). Generally speaking, lower level magic can't simulate higher level spells, only the other way around.

This effect is not at all similar to haste -- that's the same effect as the speed enchant, which is not what I'm talking about. As to the stronger/smarter servants, that's a non-argument. You might as well argue that, since a simulacrum can be asked to fetch a bucket of water, an unseen servant can't.

That you can use a higher level spell to duplicate the effects of a lower-level one doesn't mean that the lower-level spell is being used to duplicate the effect of a higher-level spell.

So none of these strike me as compelling at all. The closest is the game balance argument, but I really don't think that letting a wizard burn a spell to take a single shot with a heavy crossbow every round is noticably unbalancing.

[yeti1069]

The Haste spell (or Speed enhancement) would do nothing for your crossbow wielder without Rapid Reload, and might not even if you have the feat. Meanwhile, the benefit of those abilities is in making one more attack than you would normally have, and doing so at your highest BAB.

If you have a BAB of +6, cast Haste, and cast 3 Unseen Servants, each reloading one crossbow for you, you would be able to take your 3 shots in the round (fire one, hand it off, grab the next, fire it, hand it off, repeat), at the expensive of 3 level 1 spell slots, and all it's done is allow you to do what everyone else in your party is doing anyway, but probably for much less damage. It leaves you tethered to one spot, since the servants either, can't move and reload in a round, or can't move more than 15 feet and reload in a round.

I'll reiterate: there's nothing broken or overpowered about that. If a caster were to attempt that in my game, I'd probably try talking them out of it on the grounds that there are MUCH BETTER THINGS THEY COULD BE DOING with their spells and turn. Arguing that Simulacrum is a higher level spell is irrelevant, since it has far more significant benefits than being your reload b~@#$.

What exactly are you envisioning will happen that makes this so scary? A rogue with a US wand getting their crossbow reloaded for free? Still not striking me as being frightening.

[seebs]

And given that the crossbow is enchanted, I really, really, don't want to spend the budget to have three enchanted crossbows just to... wait, my BAB isn't even +6 yet! So really, I'm not super worried about the balance.

It really says a lot that, at 8th level, the crossbow is my highest-damage option most of the time. I should probably spend the Big Bucks some day and get a wand of magic missile at CL 1 to massively improve my damage output.

(Actually, I helped noticably in the one melee I've been in, because Animate Rope is easily underestimated, and also an Acid Splash can be enough to take down something with 2HP left. Especially if you crit for 5. But... I think one of the other characters did 116 points in a round to a single target.)

[yeti1069]

Your being ineffectual in combat is besides the point, and would be easily remedied with a couple of better spells selected, but that, also, is besides the point.

The fact that a level 1 spell is allowing you to do 2d10 damage in a round, with a chance at a x2 crit on a 19-20 for both shots, IF you have Haste up (or some other effect that grants you an additional attack in a round), while everyone else is, you know, doing the things that level 8 characters normally do IS the point, which is to say, a strong indication that using Unseen Servant in this way is perfectly reasonable.

[seebs]

yeti1069 wrote:

Your being ineffectual in combat is besides the point, and would be easily remedied with a couple of better spells selected, but that, also, is besides the point.

The fact that a level 1 spell is allowing you to do 2d10 damage in a round, with a chance at a x2 crit on a 19-20 for both shots, IF you have Haste up (or some other effect that grants you an additional attack in a round), while everyone else is, you know, doing the things that level 8 characters normally do IS the point, which is to say, a strong indication that using Unseen Servant in this way is perfectly reasonable.

I was really, really, confused by this, because I could not think of any way I could get two attacks out of this, then I re-read your other post with the multiple servants.

That is... (1) clever (2) utterly pointless, I think.

So far as I can tell, the only interesting case (unless I find myself with a ridiculous number of enchanted heavy crossbows) is that a single servant that isn't having to move more than 5' a round can let me get a shot off every round, rather than every other round. And that's cool and all, but I am pretty sure it's not particularly game-breaking.

[yeti1069]

Honestly, I think that after a few levels the whole idea is fairly pointless, but if you're a caster and afraid of running out of spells, using a crossbow and devoting one lvl 1 spell slot/attack you can make to having a back-up means of dealing more than 1d3 damage w/in 30 ft. per round doesn't sound too terrible. Once you're getting to seriously enchanted weapons, I'd expect a caster to have enough spells/day and items to keep going without having to resort to this.

My points were just that it should be possible, and is FAR from being too strong to be allowed.

[Troubleshooter]

yeti1069 wrote:

Honestly, I think that after a few levels the whole idea is fairly pointless, but if you're a caster and afraid of running out of spells, using a crossbow and devoting one lvl 1 spell slot/attack you can make to having a back-up means of dealing more than 1d3 damage w/in 30 ft. per round doesn't sound too terrible. Once you're getting to seriously enchanted weapons, I'd expect a caster to have enough spells/day and items to keep going without having to resort to this.

My points were just that it should be possible, and is FAR from being too strong to be allowed.

Does your answer change if the caster is using it for his Ranger or Fighter ally, who specializes in ranged weaponry but doesn't need to take Rapid Reload or Crossbow Mastery anymore?

[Granted, his attacks would still provoke without Crossbow Mastery -- he's not gaining the full effects of the feat.]

[Diego Rossi]

Dust Raven wrote:

Directing a spell is a move action, though a directed spell effect would continue as per its last directions provided it's something that can be repeated without further action on the part of the caster.

PRD wrote:

Direct or Redirect a Spell

Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell requires a move action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity or require concentration.

As it is the second time this evening that I see that statement, re-directing the area of effect of a spell or changing the target of a spell is very different from giving direction to a unseen servant and it is questionable if setting the distance at which a floating disk stay from you is "directing a spell".

As a unseen servant can do a task that requires a skill check with a DC lower than 10 and that can be done untrained a simple order should be sufficient to task it to reload a crossbow. On the other hand I have some doubt if a strength of 2 is sufficient to reload any crossbow.

[seebs]

Troubleshooter wrote:

yeti1069 wrote:

Honestly, I think that after a few levels the whole idea is fairly pointless, but if you're a caster and afraid of running out of spells, using a crossbow and devoting one lvl 1 spell slot/attack you can make to having a back-up means of dealing more than 1d3 damage w/in 30 ft. per round doesn't sound too terrible. Once you're getting to seriously enchanted weapons, I'd expect a caster to have enough spells/day and items to keep going without having to resort to this.

My points were just that it should be possible, and is FAR from being too strong to be allowed.

Does your answer change if the caster is using it for his Ranger or Fighter ally, who specializes in ranged weaponry but doesn't need to take Rapid Reload or Crossbow Mastery anymore?

[Granted, his attacks would still provoke without Crossbow Mastery -- he's not gaining the full effects of the feat.]

I don't think this buys you as much as rapid reload, where the point is that you take a light or hand crossbow and can (I think?) then make iterative attacks. I would be pretty surprised to see a fighter or ranger taking a single shot every round with a heavy crossbow; there's no way that's a good use of their skills.

[Kain Darkwind]

Are we really addressing whether or not it is BALANCED to get iterative attacks with a heavy crossbow through the aid of one or more unseen servants? Did they do away with repeating crossbows in PF? (Real question, I don't recall and don't have my books)

Because I'm pretty sure the archer is laughing away while firing a bow that actually gives him a strength bonus to damage, requires no funky business for iterative attacks, and can punch through DR with those arrows thanks to clustered shot.

Meanwhile, the slinger is hanging himself with his useless strap of leather than supposedly kills Nephalim with a single blow.

The only issue should be whether or not the action economy allows it.

[seebs]

Diego Rossi wrote:

As a unseen servant can do a task that requires a skill check with a DC lower than 10 and that can be done untrained a simple order should be sufficient to task it to reload a crossbow. On the other hand I have some doubt if a strength of 2 is sufficient to reload any crossbow.

My analysis:

There's no rule saying you can't use a crossbow with a strength of 2. Furthermore, consider why it's a full-round action: Because you're using that little winch thing, so you're not applying anything like the strength the crossbow is going to apply; you're turning a crank and relying on leverage.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Repeating Crossbows exist. They are Exotic Weapons I believe.

[Troubleshooter]

Repeating crossbows are exotic weapons. Their clips have 5 bolts each; they can be fired with one hand, reloaded as a Free action if you use two hands, and a cartridge of bolts must be reloaded with two hands.

Having Unseen Servants reloading a crossbow for you would allow you to Full Attack without the two feats required to do so, or without the single feat necessary for the repeating crossbow. You wouldn't need to spend a FRA after every 5th bolt, and your off-hand is free for something else -- perhaps a shield, or another weapon.

I'm curious what kind of damage output you could deal with a double Rapid Shotting character that's Two-Weapon Fighting with two crossbows.

[yeti1069]

Troubleshooter wrote:

yeti1069 wrote:

Honestly, I think that after a few levels the whole idea is fairly pointless, but if you're a caster and afraid of running out of spells, using a crossbow and devoting one lvl 1 spell slot/attack you can make to having a back-up means of dealing more than 1d3 damage w/in 30 ft. per round doesn't sound too terrible. Once you're getting to seriously enchanted weapons, I'd expect a caster to have enough spells/day and items to keep going without having to resort to this.

My points were just that it should be possible, and is FAR from being too strong to be allowed.

Does your answer change if the caster is using it for his Ranger or Fighter ally, who specializes in ranged weaponry but doesn't need to take Rapid Reload or Crossbow Mastery anymore?

[Granted, his attacks would still provoke without Crossbow Mastery -- he's not gaining the full effects of the feat.]

No, it doesn't. It's still not quite as good as Rapid Reload since it A) is costing resources of some kind, B) hampers your movement, since you now have to remain within 15 feet of all the servants that are helping you out in order to continue to receive the benefit, C) means that in order to make iterative attacks of any value, you'd need to be enchanting more than one weapon, and D) are trusting to some 5 HP crossbow holding targets that cannot defend themselves to sustain your combat ability--ONE AoE gets thrown at you, and you lose all of your iterative attacks until you recast the servants.

Would you ever entrust your continued combat abilities to something so cumbersome and flimsy just to save yourself a feat slot? I wouldn't. Thus, if someone wants to do this, they are free to do so, and are free to feel silly when that level 3 wizard tosses a burning hands at your level 12 character and removes your ability to make iterative attacks for (probably) the rest of the encounter.

[yeti1069]

Troubleshooter wrote:

Repeating crossbows are exotic weapons. Their clips have 5 bolts each; they can be fired with one hand, reloaded as a Free action if you use two hands, and a cartridge of bolts must be reloaded with two hands.

Having Unseen Servants reloading a crossbow for you would allow you to Full Attack without the two feats required to do so, or without the single feat necessary for the repeating crossbow. You wouldn't need to spend a FRA after every 5th bolt, and your off-hand is free for something else -- perhaps a shield, or another weapon.

I'm curious what kind of damage output you could deal with a double Rapid Shotting character that's Two-Weapon Fighting with two crossbows.

Keep in mind that you still only get one extra attack with Rapid Shot, regardless of the number of weapons you're wielding, that a gunslinger can do this as well, and more easily (albeit more expensively as well), while adding their Dex to the damage they deal, that a throwing-focused character could do it as well (with a Blinkback Belt or whatever it's called) and add their Str to the damage they deal, without expending spell slots or wand charges, and without risking losing their abilities due to an Alchemist's Fire thrown at you you by a desperate alchemist of any level, and if you wanted to use Snap Shot, you would need two additional servants with two additional repeating crossbows in order to supply you with the ammunition for AoOs after you've expended almost all of your ammo, not to mention the fact that they would need to reload you on their turns just so you could do your whole thing again on your next turn. So, now you're enchanting 4 weapons, instead of 2.

The archer is probably STILL doing more damage than you, since they are adding their Str to their shots, are gaining the extra arrow off of Manyshot, don't have an additional -2 penalty to all of their attacks, are using a bigger damage die than your light repeater is sporting, and have two extra feats to spend, since they didn't have to take EWP: Light Repeater, and can just enchant their bow with Keen instead of having to pick up Improved Critical (since putting Keen on 2, or 4, weapons seems excessive). And the archer doesn't get turned off by anything that rolls 2d6 in an AoE around you.

If you become (somehow), really problematic, anyone you face could be carrying a scroll or wand of Summon Monster III to conjure a hellhound to use its breath weapon on you (and there are probably even easier ways to do this). A level 1 spell can defeat you. Many CR 1 traps can defeat you. WEATHER can defeat you!

[Dust Raven]

I still can't wrap my head around how a wizard casting spells to gain an extra attack or two (with his pathetic BAB) is unbalancing. Assuming he spends no feats or expends any other spells or abilities, he'll need to be level 12 to get (low BAB) iterative attacks, cast 2 first level spells, and have purchased two crossbows (with accompanying enhancements, if any). As has been mentioned before, this "advantage" can be eliminated by any area damage dealing at least 6 points (and what doesn't at level 12?).

Why is this unbalancing? I don't get it.

[Azaelas Fayth]

I thought it was Level 11?

[Dust Raven]

Don't receive a +6 until level 12. Wizards suck when it comes to anything other than spellcasting.

[Azaelas Fayth]

For some reason I thought they started out with a +1... I really need to play Full Arcane Casters more...

[Dust Raven]

I only just started myself, unfortunately I play a sorcerer instead of a wizard, so no room for an unseen servant spell. Otherwise I'd be all over this tactic. Might pick up a page of spell knowledge for it later though, but later I'd have better options than a 1d10 damage attack which isn't likely to hit.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Page of Spell Knowledge is better for spells you might not need to cast in an emergency.

[Tacticslion]

I just want to say that this thread has caused me to laugh and laugh. I've had a great time.

EDIT: I actually realize now that the above could be insulting. Please understand that I didn't mean it that way in the slightest. Mostly I mean that I've enjoyed the humorous, quippy responses people have made in this thread.

Also, no, it's not unbalancing (far too limited in scope, far too many practically freely-available counters, and far too costly to make powerful when compared with any other option available), and it's a clever use to get a minor upgrade to a fundamental part of the game as-written.

The worst thing I could see happening is some wizard somewhere creating an intelligent item of some sort (let's call it wondrous) that cast unseen servant once per round that the ranged specialist has.

That'd set them back about, oh 2,700 gold give or take. 5,400 gold, if they want to get really fancy and have it take up no space limitation. That doesn't sound like a bad deal at all, until you realize that you still have to burn feats and, by this point, you're expending the party's resources (multiple people) in order to optimize one character's damage output in a very minor way. You've got to expend feats on proficiency, have one person's feats focused on ranged attacks, have another make wondrous items, and expend the gold to make the magic item in the first place... and all the crossbows you've got to enchant to make the entire thing worthwhile at all.

So... meh.

[Azaelas Fayth]

It would be easier to make a Heavy Crossbow similar to the Pistol of the Infinite Sky.

A Heavy Crossbow of the Infinite Sky!... Hmm, perfect for making Van Helsing as per that Hugh Jackman movie... and is it bad that I had to restrain myself from insulting him...

[Diego Rossi]

PRD wrote:

Reloading Hands

School conjuration (creation); Level magus 2, ranger 2, sorcerer/wizard 2

Casting time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range touch

Target projectile weapon touched

Duration 1 round/caster level (D)

Saving throw Will negates (object, harmless); Spell Resistance yes (object, harmless)

Once per round, phantom hands load a single ranged weapon or firearm with conjured ammunition. This ammunition counts as magical for overcoming damage reduction and attacking incorporeal creatures, but is the standard for its type (a normal bullet or pellets and black powder in the case of firearms). Conjured ammunition ceases to exist 1 round after it is removed from the weapon, or at the end of the duration, whichever comes first.

@seebs "that little winch thing" is a multiplier of your strength, but it still require more strength that of a 5 years old child.

[Dust Raven]

What does a spell which conjures magical ammunition have to do with the strength needed to load a crossbow?