... I've heard the damage output can be pretty insane with Challenge up, and with the full BAB soaking up the TWF penalties.
How accurate is this, and what does a good build for it look like? What Order is best?
Thanks in advance!
oh, and any good archetypes for this would be nice too.
Everything that gives flat bonuses is good with TWF, at least on paper. Because if you have more attacks there are more attacks that get this bonus.
The problem is that you normally don't get a full attack from horseback.
But if you build a cavalier who uses his horse as a combat pet instead of riding it, sure more attacks are better.
But I think I would rather try to build a cavalier who uses one weapon and as many natural attacks as possible.
For order I would look for one that gives bonuses to hit the target of your challenge. That way more of your attacks hit.
One idea would be a tengu. You have a beak attack and one claw (the second hand is holding the sword). You get your full iterative attacks + bite + claw at -2 each. All of them get full challenge bonus to damage and hit bonus from order if any.
The problem with this build is that it only deals big damage during the challenge. Without it a THF build will do more.
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These tales are false lol. TWF without a Ranger means bumping Dex causing more dump stats and without a Ranger/Fighter means feat starvation. Any Cavalier focusing on TWF is terrible on horseback which is the niche of that class. A Samurai (Sword Saint) works better but lets compare stat blocks:
TWF Samurai:
Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
2HF Samurai:
Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7
From better hp, skills, and feats, a 2HF Samurai has so much more to offer.
These tales are false lol. TWF without a Ranger means bumping Dex causing more dump stats and without a Ranger/Fighter means feat starvation. Any Cavalier focusing on TWF is terrible on horseback which is the niche of that class. A Samurai (Sword Saint) works better but lets compare stat blocks:
TWF Samurai:
Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 72HF Samurai:
Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7From better hp, skills, and feats, a 2HF Samurai has so much more to offer.
except less attacks.
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except less attacks.
Sure a TWF has more attacks, but far less DPR per day of adventuring. The only way a TWF build would shine is during a full-round challenge. Aside from that he's sub par at fighting.
Meanwhile a 2HF has more feats to invest for DPR/versatility/survivability and is getting a better return off Power Attack.
two weapon warrior and mobile fighter address this, 14the level is a long time to wait for mounted skirmisher, but it is pretty cool
two weapon warrior and mobile fighter address this, 14the level is a long time to wait for mounted skirmisher, but it is pretty cool
doesn't the mobile fighter only 'address' that at 15th level?
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two words: mounted skirmisher
Any build that takes 14 levels to "work" doesn't work. Around that time game balance becomes broken anyways and rarely do campaigns stretch that far.
I whipped up a matchup between a 2HF Samurai vs. 2WF Samurai. Both builds chose the Ronin Order ability because its level 2 bonus is invaluable and order abilities that provide attack bonuses are too circumstantial. Here are the builds:
Str 24 (16, +2 race, +2 level, +4 Belt)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 7
AC: 1 more than TWF due to Dodge
HP: 10 more than TWF due to Con
Fort Save: 1 more than TWF due to Con
Ref Save: 2 less than TWF due to COn
Will Save: 3 more than TWF due to Wis
Chosen feats/abilities:
lvl 1 Samurai: Weapon Focus (Katana), Power Attack
lvl 2 Samurai: Order (Ronin)
lvl 3 Samurai: Furious Focus
lvl 4 Samurai:
lvl 5 Samurai: Weapon Spec. (Katana)
lvl 6 Samurai: Dodge
lvl 7 Samurai: Iron Will
lvl 8 Samurai:
lvl 9 Samurai: Improved Critical (Katana)
lvl 10 Samurai:
Assumed Gear: +3 Katana, Belt of Str +4,
Attacks
Single Attack: +21 (+10 Bab, +7 Str, +3 Enh, +1 WF, -0 PA)
Single Damage: 1d8 +24 (+10 Str, +3 Enh, +2 WS, +9 PA)
Single Attack DPR: 32.063
Single Attack w/Challenge DPR: 43.313
Full Attack: +21/13 (+10 Bab, +7 Str, +3 Enh, +1 WF, -0/-3 PA)
Full Damage: 1d8 +24
Full Attack DPR: 49.876
Full Attack w/Challenge DPR: 67.376
Str 22 (16, +2 race, +4 Belt)
Dex 18 (+2 level)
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 7
Chosen feats/abilities:
lvl 1 Samurai: Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (wakizashi)
lvl 2 Samurai: Order (Ronin)
lvl 3 Samurai: Power Attack
lvl 4 Samurai:
lvl 5 Samurai: Weapon Spec. (Wakizashi)
lvl 6 Samurai: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
lvl 7 Samurai: Double Slice
lvl 8 Samurai:
lvl 9 Samurai: Improved Critical (wakizashi)
lvl 10 Samurai:
Assumed Gear: +2 wakizashi, +2 wakizashi, Belt of Str +4
Attacks:
Single Attack: +16 (+10 Bab, +6 Str, +2 Enh, +1 WF, -3 PA)
Single Damage: 1d6 +16 (+6 Str,+2 Enh, +2 WS, +6 PA)
Single Attack DPR: 15.844
Single Attack w/Challenge: 23.969
Full Attack: +14/+14/+9/+9(+10 Bab, +6 Str, +2 Enh, +1 WF, -2 TWF, -3 PA)
Full Damage: 1d6 +16 (main hand) and 1d6 +13 (off hand)
Full Attack DPR: 38.251
Full Attack w/Challenge DPR: 59.501
In Conclusion:
Two-Handed Samurai
Single Attack DPR/Single Attack Challenge DPR: 32.063 / 43.313
Full Attack DPR/Full Attack Challenge DPR: 49.876 / 67.376
Two-Weapon Fighting Samurai
Singe Attack DPR/Single Attack Challenge DPR: 15.844 / 23.969
Full Attack DPR/Full Attack Challenge DPR: 38.251 / 59.501
A 2HF Samurai wins in every aspect (damage, skills, AC, HP, saves) with the exception of Reflex Saves. This myth is busted.
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I don't mean to be insulting, it's just a fact that 20 > 16, and 26 > 22 assuming you got the bulls strength wand and used a medium base creature with medium alter self.
Consumables(wands, potions, poisons, ect.) and crafting are not used when calculating DPR. If you disagree with my match up that's fine but please post your Finesse DPR build with calcualted DPR.
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A high singular-focus build will always do more damage than a split focus build.
Just like a Str focus build will always do more damage than Dex. The reason I ask for your complete build with DPR is because it's the only way to prove a point. The problem with finesse builds is it requires one more feat to an already feat starved build and I believe won't dish out as much DPR as you think.
two weapon warrior and mobile fighter address this, 14the level is a long time to wait for mounted skirmisher, but it is pretty cooldoesn't the mobile fighter only 'address' that at 15th level?
11th
TWF Cavaliers/Samurai are more or less only using their mount for transit and as a Combat Buddy.
I have a TWF Cavalier who used the Standard Bearer Archetype. Is it powerful? Yes. Is it optimal? No. Is it fun and Feasible? Yes.
In the end, It is better suited for RAS as is nearly every TWF build. It is do-able in a PBS but requires a pretty hefty amount of skill, planning ahead, and frugal gold spending.
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1: My build is a Cavalier, not a samurai.
A TWF Samurai will be optimal over a TWF Cavalier due to access to fighter feats and less mounted focus. You're TWF for instance cannot get weapon spec., greater weapon focus, or greater weapon spec. for example.
2: The pet, and how it is used, is as much a part of the build as anything else. On that note comparing a horse to a wolf is a joke*.
You do have a point about using a wolf to fight with you and am curious about how its DPR will look. But a Samurai could have a wolf as well.
3: The Cavalier has weapon proficiences the Samurai just outright doesn't.
Samurai have more weapon proficiency than Cavaliers. They are proficient with martial weapons and the exotic katana and wakizashi
4: Kukri have a higher crit range than Wakazashi.
They both have the same crit range. And it is 15-20 not 16-20.
5: Situational factors such as Disarm or Sunder
Any build that focuses in one weapon will be hindered by these but they are situational and rare. The key to optimization is preparring yourself for things you can control (damage output>saves>=AC) rather than prepping for minor cases such as disarms.
But once again I'll ask for a build. Not "I have 26 Dex" ect. You must post a full build like my above ones or anything you say is arbitrary.
...damnit, now you're making me want to make a Halfling Sword Saint Samurai with a Wolf Companion he will call "Cub."
LIKE I NEEDED TO SPEND MORE TIME MAKING CHARACTERS I'LL NEVER PLAY.
I hate you right now...
I was thinking more of Human Sword Saint with a Halfling Cohort.
11thtwo weapon warrior and mobile fighter address this, 14the level is a long time to wait for mounted skirmisher, but it is pretty cooldoesn't the mobile fighter only 'address' that at 15th level?
ah, my mistake. didn't have the srd on-hand. carry on then.
3a: Martial Weapon prof. gives us the mighty Kukri, which has a higher crit range than Wakazashi (exotic short-sword).
er, what?
www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/eastern-weapons
(i'm sure you can ctrl-f and find them)
kukri: 1d4 (medium), 18-20x2 crit, 2lbs, slashing
wakizashi: 1d6 (medium), 18-20x2 crit, 2lbs, piercing or slashing, deadly property.
seems the wakizashi's a tad mightier. also, same crit range.
If you take the Beast Master Archetype you can get a Wolf pretty early.
The Wakizashi is clearly listed as a shortsword in the ninja discription, and it is listed nowhere on the weapon list (Searching for Wak yields no results). It is effectivly a short sword (1d6 19-20/x2) and not a kukri (1d4 18-20/x2). Searching the site yields it's item discription, where it is called a short blade, but not it's actual stats.
that is exactly why i have that funny little link to the eastern weapons directly below the first, but perhaps i should have clarified more:
kukri stats can be found in the regular weapon link, while the wakizashi can be found in the eastern weapons link. so sorry.
i understand completely, my whole beef was that you compared the wakizashi to a shortsword (though you had a source for that), and said a kukri had a higher crit range.
kaisc006 already addressed that both classes have the same basic proficiencies in everything (actually the samurai has more, but you get the point).
Sword Saint doesn't get Mount IIRC.
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Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 07
I started to crunch numbers for you then realized this is a wrong point buy. We're working with a 20 BP and you have 26 here:
Str: 10 (0 points)
Dex: 18 (16 points)
Con: 16 (10 points)
Int: 12 (2 points)
Wis: 12 (2 points)
Cha: 07 (-4 points)
At first I thought this was your BP but then you later apply the Goblin Stat changes. Please put up a proper BP for your goblin then I'll crunch.
Also, with your wolf you can't take weapon proficieny (claw) and suddenly gain secondary attacks. You're stuck with only bite.
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I'm going to refrain from crunching at this moment. I could go ahead and build the goblin for you, but would rather have you give me proper BP stats to avoid any further debate. You don't understand the BP system. My stats are including the Human +2 racial bonus.
TWF Samurai:
Str: 16 (10 points) +2 for race becomes 18
Dex: 16 (10 points)
Con: 12 (2 points)
Int: 10 (0 points)
Wis: 12 (2 points)
Cha: 7 (+4 points)
In addition, you're using things that aren't RAW. You cannot simply take weapon proficiency (claws) and suddenly gain a natural attack. Sure if you want to homebrew and the GM approves it's ok. But if you're going to debate something on the boards you must use RAW.
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Further, if you want to address the raw exculsivly. Please explain to me how Player Characters can do exactly this and gain several natural attacks, and why Monsters can not.
A character does not select weapon proficiency (bite). There are specific feats, such as tusked, that allow this.
Unarmed Attacks are not Natural Attacks. They are considered light weapons. See Unarmed Attacks. A key phrase here is "Unarmed Strikes do not count as natural weapons".
Like how a Chakram requires someone to wear Heavy Armour to avoid having to roll a save when using it in Melee? When the traditional Wielders of the Weapon were little to no armour?
And their is no Weapon Proficiency(claws). PCs get them through class or racial features or specific feats.
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"Unarmed weapons" are any part of the body (headbutt, knee to the gut, etc), such is the padded foot of a dog.
Technically, if your wolf boosted its intelligence to 3, you could get improved unarmed strike. However that does not mean two natural attacks. You simply have an unarmed strike. At 10th level, you would only get one unarmed strike at +6 BAB because animal companions do not gain additional attacks based on BAB. Since you already have multiattack, there's no point in taking it.
In Conclusion:
Two-Handed Samurai
Single Attack DPR/Single Attack Challenge DPR: 32.063 / 43.313
Full Attack DPR/Full Attack Challenge DPR: 49.876 / 67.376Two-Weapon Fighting Samurai
Singe Attack DPR/Single Attack Challenge DPR: 15.844 / 23.969
Full Attack DPR/Full Attack Challenge DPR: 38.251 / 59.501A 2HF Samurai wins in every aspect (damage, skills, AC, HP, saves) with the exception of Reflex Saves. This myth is busted.
To come back to my previous point that the best way for a cavalier (or samurai) to ad damage is doing it via natural attacks not TWF.
If you just add a bite (gained via adopted trait) to your 2HF Samurai he looses nothing (except the trait) but gets a bite at +12 to hit dealing 1d3+13 damage on a challenge. (without PA)If you don't like the adoted trait you can be a half-orc or take racial heriatge (half-orc) instead. In the long run you only have to sacrifice dodge for it.
I'm not that good at calculating DPR but I guess it should go up a few points.
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You can't take Proficiency in something that isn't classified as a Simple, Martial, and Exotic weapon.
Additionally, until the mounts intelligence is increased they can't take any feat but the ones listed.
Unless you show us proof that it is otherwise. Until then you are wrong.
TWW can be brutal if played right.
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My Jade Regent character is an all-Dex build Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype Fighter dual-wielding +1 Agile Wakizashi.
TWW is a totally different beast and one that makes TWF manageable. My main problem with Dex builds is they are useless unless you have Agile Weapons. I play mainly PFS and would hate to go through over half my career without two +1 agile weapons.
Also, a 12th level Fighter (Two-Handed) would only have three attacks but with his first attack would pump out 2d4 +32(+12 Str, +4 WS, +2 WT, +12 PA, +3 Ench) and the other two 2d4 +36 (due to backhanded swing) with a 15-20 crit as well. You can land more possible crits and utilize critical feats, but he will do more DPR. Why do fancy tricks when you can just kill something?
And btw this is nothing against your character it sounds like you have a well built TWW. Just with optimization, it is very difficult for TWF to pull ahead of 2HF.
If you just add a bite (gained via adopted trait) to your 2HF Samurai he looses nothing (except the trait) but gets a bite at +12 to hit dealing 1d3+13 damage on a challenge. (without PA)
The adopted trait doesn't give you bite. This is a common misperception. Adopted allows you access to race traits not racial traits. Race traits are found HERE while racial traits are those within the race's description (such as the half-orc's toothy).
But if you're a half-orc, absolutely you should gain a bite.
i give toothy to regular orcs too.
There are other advantages to TWF on a cavalier. Not least of which is Tactician, which makes Precise Strikes a grand way to up damage in lower levels and you're rogue will love you with everyone now incentivised to flank. Take outflank at 9th and you get a bonus to hit.
There are order abilities that up your ability to hit. Order of the Cockatrice gets a +2 morale bonus while fighting an intimidated opponent, and can use their bonus Dazzling Display as a standard action (vs the normal full round). This is my top pick for a TWF Cav, especially if going beast rider since you get another boost to damage if you fight your challenge alone, without a flank buddy.
Order of the Shield gets a nice boost to hit if your challenger gets a hit in on your buddies. This boost scales with level. It is less good with a beast rider as their second level ability doesn't work with medium armor.
Order of the Seal gives you a free maneuver on a full attack, and trips give bonuses to hit. Otherwise the order is uninteresting.
Order of the Swords is better for charging, but as long as you intend to stay mounted you get to-hit bonuses.
For a TWFer, take the Beast Master archetype and level into the Dinonychus/Velociraptor. Your teamwork feats become all the better, and you can ride your pouncey companion into battle and then dismount and move into flank rather than attacking. (Should be legit, the mounted combat rules are not well worded.) Take Pack Attack along with your ensmartened mount and any hit your mount makes while you ride it gives it a free five foot step (on the first hit) allowing for easier flanking.
I assume you're a Halfling given their applicable bonuses and favourable small size.
I wouldn't go beyond Improved TWF really.
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You ignore the difference on a Standard attack, and go for a +3 weapon instead of adding 2 different energy types.
+1 attack and damage yields greater DPR than 1d6 energy. As for Power Attack, the penalty is far more significant to a TWF than a 2HF. And standard actions, the 2HF is still doing higher DPR with only one attack and he's been doing it since level 1.
Oh, and the Critical Feats start stacking next level. Every crit can impose 2D6 cumulative bleed?
Bleed is cool, but why make something bleed when you deal enough damage it dies?
And you mention versatility... A 2HF is more versatile than a TWW because he has more feats to spend.