Goblin Squad Member
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@Summersnow - I did provide a link in post #2.
Which was not further discussed. Was there some other links you might suggest, to provide some more constructive input?
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I'm wholly disappointed in the reactions from those in the "Pathfinder Online" camp, although I'm loathe to call it that. We are being asked to evangelise the game and yet this is the reaction that someone who, having raised a valid issue, is greeted with.
Although this is not an issue that Goblinworks has much direct control over, given that they are not involved directly with Paizo's day to day operations, that does not excuse the reaction from those on this board and most certainly not the reaction from you, Ryan.
You are the public face of Pathfinder Online, more so than any employee at either Goblinworks or Paizo. It would do the game and the community well for you to rein in your reactions.
I am as disgruntled as the next gamer when someone makes baseless claims about the game but Captain Marsh came in here with a legitimate concern over something that concerns not just him but all of us who purchase Paizo tabletop products. None of us want to see a decline in quality because Paizo employees are diverted on to helping Goblinworks. Now, I do not believe this will be the case, but regardless it doesn't mean that there should be a backlash of such contempt as that serves only to further divide the Paizo community at large.
For those of you who are here solely from an MMO point of view, you are joining an existing community that has been here for years. There will be legitimate concerns from them. They may be unfounded, but if you are unable to keep a civil tone whilst conversing with them, refrain from posting and let those of us with a modicum more patience try and help them understand.
For those of you who are coming here from the tabletop point of view, please understand that Pathfinder Online is a project that, whilst falling under a Paizo brand, is unlikely to have any kind of financial impact upon Paizo. Hopefully, the game will spur new creations such as the Thornkeep and Emerald Spire books that, even if you have no interest in the MMO, will become a valuable part of your gaming collection.
This should not be a "them and us" situation and it really, really disappoints me that it seems to be turning into that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't understand how this was ever an us vs them issue. One guy brought up some concerns and was asked to use the search function because they had been brought up before. His response to a reasonable request bordered on conspiracy theory material and was unreasonable. He got razzed for it. End of story.
Apologies for any confusion caused, I'm speaking of the situation at large. This is not an isolated case, and I'm certain there will be many more before we reach launch.
What I'm trying to do is call for reason and leniency on both sides. There will forever be those of us who, for whatever reason, are quick to leap to the defense of their viewpoint and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, in the case of our burgeoning game, I'd like to think that a softer approach is more likely to yield results. It may be that someone with concerns still does not decide to join us in this great adventure but they'll be more likely to pass on correct information to other interested parties than simply denounce our sub-community as degenerates and evildoers.
Personally, I would love it if we could entice all of those who play the tabletop game to also indulge in the online game. However, I realise that isn't going to happen but there should be no reason why those who aren't going to play the game can't evangelise a little for us, no matter how indirectly.
Bah, now I look daft! ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am sorry for my abrasive stance. I will be better in the future.
Please see The-Blog-Posts-Everyone-Should-Read for some good information and links.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes it is helpful. Save yourself some time. Go look up the old posts.
See everything that's been said, and possibly answer other concerns you may have at the same time. I'm sorry it would take a wee bit of work to find them.
Instead, we now have this thread.
I suppose I could make a new thread that says "Hey! I think they should make a Pathfinder MMO!"
What do you think the response would be?
You both have valid viewpoints. Some people will take the time to research what they are posting about and hopefully find the answers. Others, by nature, will not. It is these cases that I call for reason and leniency. We've all had cases where we've wanted answers and we've wanted them now.
While the endless questions can be tiring, feel free to let others take up the burden of explaining. It can only serve to help your blood pressure ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kryzbyn thank you for showing the rest of the community an excellent example of forum griefing. I suppose your in game behavior is not going to be much different. You could have made a difference with a different tone. If the community cant police itself in the board then there is even less hope of it happening in game.
Disengaging from discussion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Kryzbyn thank you for showing the rest of the community an excellent example of forum griefing. I suppose your in game behavior is not going to be much different. You could have made a difference with a different tone. If the community cant police itself in the board then there is even less hope of it happening in game.
You have got to be kidding me.
Disengaging from discussion.
Is that what this was? Perhaps that's best.
Arslanxelan, I think that comparing the forum to the game is a bit unfair. We will have mechanics in-game for policing the community, as you put it. Here on the boards, we're beholden to the moderators.
Also, your post is a touch hypocritical given your tone towards Kryzbyn.
CEO
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Kastarr -
Fair enough. I really do admire the business model and the talent that Paizo's management has shown.
I've expressed my misgivings. But the folks at Paizo know the history of our hobby much better than I do.
If anyone can avoid the pitfalls of this sort of destructive muddle, it will be them.
And Ryan Dancey is certainly a hardened veteran. He's seen people making these mistakes, so hopefully he will help Paizo avoid them this time.
--Marsh
Hey Captain Marsh:
Thanks for chiming in with your concerns! Trust me, I have had many of the same concerns that you have voiced here in the forums. I am doing my best to keep Goblinworks and Paizo as separate companies. But you are right, there is some bleed over in management time spent on the MMO, mostly from me. Paizo has a vested interest in seeing Goblinworks and Pathfinder Online succeed. It would be a good thing for Paizo both from a brand building point of view and also a monetary one. But I also know how risky computer games are. That is why I started a second company to insulate Paizo from those risks. That is why we are doing things like Kickstarters to help us get the funding we need to make this game. Of course, Paizo is using its resources to help those Kickstarters. But the vast majority of Paizo employees have little to nothing to do with Goblinworks and Pathfinder Online other than being intensely interested in what we are creating.
So to sum up, I hear your concerns and have had those concerns myself. I am doing what I can to make sure those concerns never become an issue. Trust me, we don't want to distract the Paizo staff from doing what it does best and my job, as CEO, is to make sure that happens to as limited a degree as possible.
Thanks!
-Lisa
And that is why Paizo is awesome! Thanks Lisa!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes it is helpful. Save yourself some time. Go look up the old posts.
See everything that's been said, and possibly answer other concerns you may have at the same time. I'm sorry it would take a wee bit of work to find them.
Instead, we now have this thread.I suppose I could make a new thread that says "Hey! I think they should make a Pathfinder MMO!"
What do you think the response would be?And I didn't see one thread that specifically addressed what the OP was talking about. If you know of one then by all means share it.
And even if an issue has been talked through before is it really such a horribly thing to talk through it again? If nobody has anything else to say then there won't be discussion and the topic will die.
It wasn't horrible! Hyperbole much? Where are you getting this?
It was a friggin suggestion. If you go back to the beginning of this thread, the concern was brought up and after a few folks tried to reassure him, the concerns were restated and justified by the OP. There was no progress. My suggestion was meant as "well then go look up the previous threads this has already been discussed in, where the Paizo folks have already answered these concerns". He kept going, claiming I was trying to silence him. Really? Whatevs.And still, I'm not going to look up the threads for anyone. Would defeat the purpose of my remarks. These boards have a search function.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And isn't the reaction you got a sign that it wasn't a great response? I mean, if you asked a question and had it answered with 'we've totally talked about it before, I won't tell you where or anything but I will repeatedly say that you should look for the old threads' would that seem helpful to you?
I'd say "Thanks, I'll go look then."
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan, I'm rather disappointed in your suggestion to just ignore the OP. I can understand that opinion if it were coming from a fan-boy, but I don't think that is an appropriate response from a CEO who has been very vocal about wanting input from the community.
I hope that you can admit that the OP was generally polite and well-intentioned (if a bit stubborn.) So this wasn't about behavior outside the accepted norms for these forums. I think a more professional response was in order. In particular, I would expect a reply to the OP rather than condescending instructions to the 'loyal fans' while referencing the OP in the third person.
I'm now a bit concerned about my support of the KS, as I want to really believe in the people I'm supporting with my donations.
The Paizo brand is built on superb customer interactions, and it has engendered a huge amount of brand loyalty. As a former CMO, I'm sure you understand the value of brand loyalty and the need to always be consistent with the brand promise and attributes. Basically, I don't believe your post was consistent with the Paizo brand I have seen over the past four years.
I'm very glad that Lisa weighed in with a more professional response. It's why I've been a Paizo supporter since the very early days.
So two reactions to these comments.
1. I don't buy the idea that tabletop gaming is dying. Paizo seems to be doing very well currently as a "D&D" publisher. I agree that the growth potential is limited by the hobby's fairly limited appeal and by constraints that come with the time and social commitments that it requires.
But I worry that avari3's comment reflects exactly the kind of thinking that could get Paizo into trouble. Rather than focus on the product they make well -- and make good money producing -- there could be a growing focus on an entirely different entertainment product.
This isn't simply hand-wringing. This kind of distracted thinking has doomed really great gaming companies before -- it's a big part of our hobby's troubled history.
2. I don't buy the idea that Paizo is clearly firewalled from Goblinworks. It feels less and less like that. Goblinworks has a substantial presence on Paizo's website. I'm receiving letters from Goblinworks promoters via Paizo's distribution list.
I've been a media executive (in a tiny, tiny way) during my career, and I bet I'm not wrong in guessing that Paizo's really talented management team is already spending more and more of their time in meetings and discussions that focus on MMO development rather than new Adventure Paths and other tabletop content.
Even if there is a clear company division here, I think there's a lot of risk that Paizo will get caught up in the ill-will if the MMO thing doesn't work. Paizo has used its enormous credibility to encourage fans to invest a great deal of money in this new venture.
In a gaming industry that hinges enormously on fan loyalty, protecting your image is key. Ask Wizards about that.
--Capt. Marsh
This is not Ryan Dacey's and Lisa Steven's first rodeo, they know what they are doing. They both have been in the business for at least 15 years if not more, pretty sure its more. The people responsible for the adventure paths and such most likely spend very little time with this mmo project, the CEO Lisa on the other hand is managing and running a buisness, what she does in meetings about the mmo does not detract from the PnP game. Hell it is kind of good for it. The emerald spire super dungeon for example would be getting made if it was not for the mmo and the super dungeon book gets larger as we reach stretch goals on this kick starter, which BTW as others have pointed is not funding the game so it can be made just makes it possible to make it faster. MMO's are big buisness, and other than geting bioware/atari/obsidian to produce a NWN style PC game this is the logical next step for the franchise, Its pretty much par for the course, with all the forgotten realms inspired PC games like never winter nights, baldur's gate, DDO, the new never winter mmo being produced by perfect world international.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Berik - the observation remains a link was provided in the first reply and not worked with by the OP. If I had made this thread I would have taken more personal responsibility for it's direction. We all are friends of Paizo here - Walked into a shop and checked some Paizo products for 1st time today (& GoTs board game looks tempting too!) - so I really don't see the need for a wild-goose chase sub-topic on intentions & "camps/sides".
Please let's laugh at ourselves when it's called for!
@Micco - Tbc if one of the execs told me to pipe down, I'd happily comply: They've done much more for the good of Paizo or GW than I have. It would be a good opportunity to self-reflect. Honestly Ryan has been tireless in responding on the forums and giving opportunity to think and be challenged - as an exec if he says don't respond to these threads - that is what I am NOT doing right now - so I will comply henceforth.
Finally Merry Christmas All !!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'd still like to point out the virtue in using standard English, including such innovations as paragraphs to group together related sentences and thoughts, when communicating in any way, shape, or form on the internet.
In the meantime, I've gathered together Sherlock Holmes, Doctor Who, and the entire team from CSI Miami (including the goth chick from NCSI, who I always think is a cast member of CSI Miami), to solve the pressing mystery of who was a poo-head first in this thread, including the related cases of who has a right to complain and who speaks on behalf of Paizo and the community. I suspect that their findings will not only resolve the concerns expressed in the OP, but will bring justice to this dark and lawless corner of the internet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am sure I am not the only one who has noticed the bleeding of two sub-culture of gamers here.
This topic reminded me of when I first started to play MMO's (UO and EQ). In both of those games they had a healthy community of people that were mostly friendly and helpful, much like a real community of people.
Sometime after EQ the MMO community became a contest of who could have the best witty replies, then that became who could have the best snarky replies, then who could be the first to correct spelling or such things.
Now MMO communities are considered the worst of places to post or lurk.
I am hoping Pathfinder PnP players who come here will be able to help true MMO players foster a community and get rid of the snarky replies. Because they are not needed. We need to get back to forging healthy gaming communities and there are none healthier than PnP players.
Mods can't do that for us only gamers can make this a better place. I hope people like Capt Marsh can help establish communities like Paizo has created in Pathfinder instead of what MMO communities are known for: puns and thinly veiled contempt towards others while still trying to make a valid point.
Just my point of view over a few decades.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's internet culture, not MMO specific culture.
But it's interesting that you've managed to counter the intent of your own post by denegrating one subset of player (mmo's) and elevating another (pnp) and making general, broad sweeping statements about both, when it's just not true. I dunno if you've been to the off topic page lately, but that pretty much stands in evidence against your claim.
I agree with the overall theme of your post, though. While I think snarkiness has it's place, just as sarcasm in general, it does get used alot more on forums than perhaps needed. I often use it to try to point out the ridiculous contrast between reality and another poster's stubborn refusal to accept a point, but as evidenced in this very thread, that can be counter-productive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am sure I am not the only one who has noticed the bleeding of two sub-culture of gamers here.
This topic reminded me of when I first started to play MMO's (UO and EQ). In both of those games they had a healthy community of people that were mostly friendly and helpful, much like a real community of people.
Sometime after EQ the MMO community became a contest of who could have the best witty replies, then that became who could have the best snarky replies, then who could be the first to correct spelling or such things.
Now MMO communities are considered the worst of places to post or lurk.
I am hoping Pathfinder PnP players who come here will be able to help true MMO players foster a community and get rid of the snarky replies. Because they are not needed. We need to get back to forging healthy gaming communities and there are none healthier than PnP players.
Mods can't do that for us only gamers can make this a better place. I hope people like Capt Marsh can help establish communities like Paizo has created in Pathfinder instead of what MMO communities are known for: puns and thinly veiled contempt towards others while still trying to make a valid point.
Just my point of view over a few decades.
Well intentioned, but I think ultimately very wrong. Your modern day PnP'er spends plenty of time making snarky comments on internet message boards. We all guilty. MMO'ers, PnP'ers and everybody else that uses the internet.
...In the meantime, I've gathered together Sherlock Holmes, Doctor Who, and the entire team from CSI Miami (including the goth chick from NCSI, who I always think is a cast member of CSI Miami), to solve the pressing mystery of who was a poo-head first in this thread, including the related cases of who has a right to complain and who speaks on behalf of Paizo and the community...
As I've often said, "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
Unfortnately, the task you have selected is, alas, impossible.
- SH
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they stick to their original vision, they'll be starting with only 4500 players and adding that amount every month. They say they expect to be stable with ~160k players iirc from the blog.
They're going for a compact, high quality experience that will turn a profit because the budget is much lower than "blockbuster" themepark mmos.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well intentioned, but I think ultimately very wrong. Your modern day PnP'er spends plenty of time making snarky comments on internet message boards. We all guilty. MMO'ers, PnP'ers and everybody else that uses the internet.
Yeah I guess I only see those people in the gaming sessions. I still believe MMO's can have a healthy community.
Personally I don't see how though, but I know it can happen. We had them in the beginning of this genre. I just don't know how it is going to happen again.
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Well intentioned, but I think ultimately very wrong. Your modern day PnP'er spends plenty of time making snarky comments on internet message boards. We all guilty. MMO'ers, PnP'ers and everybody else that uses the internet.Yeah I guess I only see those people in the gaming sessions. I still believe MMO's can have a healthy community.
Personally I don't see how though, but I know it can happen. We had them in the beginning of this genre. I just don't know how it is going to happen again.
I think deliberately keeping the community small (by WoW standards) will help. Part of the problem with huge communities and a plethora of alts for each player is that it fosters anonymity. And anonymity fosters rudeness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well intentioned, but I think ultimately very wrong. Your modern day PnP'er spends plenty of time making snarky comments on internet message boards. We all guilty. MMO'ers, PnP'ers and everybody else that uses the internet.Yeah I guess I only see those people in the gaming sessions. I still believe MMO's can have a healthy community.
Personally I don't see how though, but I know it can happen. We had them in the beginning of this genre. I just don't know how it is going to happen again.
I also believe Gabrius. I also believe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I disbelieve that those other companies tried to do what GW is doing if I understand the general scope of the project.
GW is building a virtual environment and habitat and translating the tools and methodologies of Pathfinder TT into computer code. A hefty task, but reasonably do-able. They are building in some story arcs to the PvE as adventure opportunities and devising the mechanics and resources the players will need to make the game what it will become, but they are not exhausting themselves by also attempting to play the game for the players as well. That is a way of describing what those other game companies tried to do. The story arcs were linear, rides on rails. Decision points were few. The imagination was removed from being players' responsibility.
It was too much.
GW instead will leave the game to the players. Leve the imagination to the players. Leave the game to the players.
We should celebrate the distinction, and take hope therefrom.
