Been thinking about this after another thread discussing hate/love for consumable items. My current group actively dislikes consumable magic items unless they are absolutely desperately in need of some particular spell. They never buy wands and rarely buy scrolls or potions. If found they almost always sell at the first opportunity. They consider consumables a complete waste. They’ve even said they wish they hadn’t been put in the game at all. They actually seem to get offended if a treasure trove or mission reward has very much in the way of consumables.
I’ve tried to explain how they can useful and an effective use of funds. I’ve shown them the math. But it just doesn’t sink in.
Now I will admit, I’ve always had some tendency toward this myself. I usually prefer to buy permanent magic items. But they take it well beyond where I am at. Example: My oracle has purchased a high level cure disease in case someone get lycanthropy. None of the rest of them were willing to do that. They all purchased cloak of resistance (or similar) to try and get their saves high enough to prevent getting the lycanthropy. If someone still rolls bad and gets it anyway, then and only then would they seek out a source for a scroll (and they would be irritated about it).
Don’t get me wrong, they still have fun gaming and there is nothing inherently wrong with the way the game. But I think they are missing out on part of it. Plus I think the attitude of some of the longer term guys has worn off on the newer guys. Sort of “I hear everyone saying bad stuff about it so it must be bad” kind of thing. I’m not really trying to force a change on any of them, but I do want them to see that it is a choice they are making. That buying and using consumable magic items really is not the completely wrong choice in all situations.
So I figured maybe they would have to see it in action. So I’m thinking that for the next campaign when I’m a player I might make a PC that tries to make really extensive use of consumable magic items. What I’ve seen described as batman’s belt on the boards. But I’ve never made a PC like that before and I’m not really sure how to go about it.
My first thought was a rogue/ninja type with a really high UMD. But then if the campaign does not give reasonable access to purchase magic items I will be kind of out of luck. So I need to be able to make at least some of them. So I was thinking a caster with a craft feat. But if I’m playing a caster, I will probably just primarily rely on my spells not magic items. So then it seems like maybe a multi class caster with just enough levels to get craft wand who just uses his magic to augment either his fighting or sneaking. But I’m not sure how that will work out. I was also thinking alchemist, but I’m certain their attitude will just be “Well the class is built around potions so of course it works for that.” Just not sure what to do.
So I’m looking for a build to demonstrate effective use of consumable magic items (potions, scrolls, and wands).
Any ideas?
Alchemists are good at this with potions. Special mentions of
Alchemical Allocation (level 2 spell, spit back the potion, gain effects but not consuming it)
To drink potions as a move action instead of a Standard (which lets you combine it with things like Vital Strike and other Standard action of other classes such as Alchemist Explosive Missile, Arcane Archer Imbue Arrow, Cleave, Spells..):
Drunken Rager Barbarian 1: lets you drink as move
Accelerated Drinker Trait: same, so long as it's in your hand already.
I have a sorcerer 1/monk 4/dragon disciple who has gotten tons of mileage out of a wand of Mirror Image. I also have a sorcerer 1/cleric X who has gotten a lot of mileage out of a wand of Magic Missiles (CL > 1).
One option is the half-elf's Arcane Training class feature. You can essentially give up your favored class bonuses in exchange for being able to trigger items as a 1st level arcane spellcaster.
Been thinking about this after another thread discussing hate/love for consumable items.Grouping all 'consumables' in one pile is part of the problem.
Segregate them into at least 3 categories:
1. Every day use.
2. Specific tool.
3. Panic button....
People confuse these categories by not recognizing them. They use a potion of fly as an every day item when for them it should be a panic button. Then they bemoan how it was too pricy.
Consumables are force multipliers. When used they allow parties to tackle encounters that they normally could not, and be in better shape after the encounter than they would otherwise be.
-James
I happen to agree with everything you said. My group does not. For them:
Not Permanent = BadI am looking for a build to demonstrate that to them. I admit I am not the greatest at making use of consumables so I am looking for help in how to do that.
...Though Rogue with the talent Black Market Conncetions SHOULD let you find the consumables...
That had not occured to me. Thanks.
... One option is the half-elf's Arcane Training class feature. You can essentially give up your favored class bonuses in exchange for being able to trigger items as a 1st level arcane spellcaster.
That isn't how I remembered that working. I will have to look at it again.
... One option is the half-elf's Arcane Training class feature. You can essentially give up your favored class bonuses in exchange for being able to trigger items as a 1st level arcane spellcaster.That isn't how I remembered that working. I will have to look at it again.
here's the relevant text from the APG half-elves section of Arcane Training alternate racial trait
They can use spell trigger and spell completion items for their favored class as if one level higher (or as a 1st-level character if they have no levels in that class). This racial trait replaces the multitalented racial trait.
I like the concept, but I am really not in love with wizards in PF with my current group.
It increased by head aches and expense to have to fill and track a spell book (and backup incase it was lost). We almost never seem to be able to find out what we are going to be able to encounter or have the quiet study time to fill empty slots. So I was usually going with a 'standard' selection. In my book would be the 'perfect' spell for this combat or situation, but I almost never had it prepared.Which meant I might as well have been a sorc.
If I try this batman belt concept, I think I am leaning toward either a sorc, inquisitor, or rogue.
I like it best when you can use consumables without consuming them.
For example acid to increase acid splash damage, alchemist's fire for the +1 to hit on scorching ray, as a sorcerer scrolls of spells you don't know with a mnemonic vestment, I think you get what I mean.
If you usually use them like that you still have (and can use them) in an emergency.
But just I really think if you use consumables on a regular basis you'll soon run into problems because you got too few permanent items.
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Send them against a group of NPCs that use consumables. Rogues running around shooting lightning bolts from wands, flying two-handed fighters. Make sure to not put any spell casters with them. When they ask how they're doing it, just tell them, "Oh, he's holding a wand." They will learn.
...
I disagree and think that you just need to work at it a bit harder.With the arcane discovery you are talking 1 minute to fill empty slots.
With a bonded item you can do it once without preparation.
With preferred spell you can spontaneously convert to a standbye spell.
Heck you can even ask about other 3.5 means of doing things like this.
All in all, there are many ways for a wizard to be the 'god' in god wizard...
-James
UM wasn't out (or at least I had not bought it yet) when I last tried a wizard. So it was stop everything for 15 min if I wanted to prep a spell. We usually did not seem to get 15 min peace.
I had a familiar rather than the bonded item. Was going for the improved familiar wand monkey.
Prefered spell always seems like a waste. Two feats to be able to repeat cast 1 spell. And once I've gained a few levels I probably won't be happy with the spell any more.
I try to avoid using 3.x material anymore. It always seems to have unforseen complications with pathfinder when ever we've tried.
Didn't say it couldn't be done. Said I wasn't happy with trying to do it.
Nearly aways felt I would have been better off with a sorc.
There was a short time around 4-5 level when we often had intelligence on what would be coming up and/or we controlled the event rate. For that time when I could pick the perfect spells, I was contributing more than any 2 or 3 other characters. It was what I was hoping for and it does let me see why people love the class.
However, with my group and my GM things did not usually work out that way. I always felt like I had the wrong spells prepared and was not able to prepare the correct ones. So a large portion of the time I felt like an anchor on the rest of the party. They were spending effort keeping my squishy butt allive and I was not contributing much.
Anyway, this thread is not about my wizard problems. It's about a build that makes effective use of consumables. So the build ideas I'm liking so far are:
Half-Elf with arcane training trait
Rogue with black market connections as 1st rogue talent
Arcane sorcerer with 'improved wand monkey' familiar
Inquisitor also seemed like it might work for this build, but not sure
Hehe are you a gamist or a narrativist mostly in your GM style? If so, perhaps your players are just thinking meta or 'no first use'. I mean, after all, say they adopt consumables in a big way. You'll just ratchet up the challenges right, having your opponents using many of the same consumables. Then they'll be right back to the same spot they were before, with more swingy and volatile fights, and have the burden of inventory management which they didn't have before.
Of course, if you're a simulationist, the world doesn't give a damn whether you use consumables---OPFOR will use them if they have the means, motive and opportunity to do so regardless of things like CR or whether your party uses them.
When I'm playing a very narrativist game, I'm likely to use whatever tools seem cool to me and count on the the story to work out appropriately.
My experience with Pathfinder is mostly in published adventure paths, however, so tends to be very gamist, calling for a different strategy toward character building and itemization. (It might be more accurate to say, "Calling for a strategy" rather than none.) For adventure paths I prefer to spend the majority of my resources on carefully selected permanent magic items, with purchases of "Panic Button" items appropriate to level, and an occasional "Specific Tool" where I feel that it could be particularly useful.
Hehe are you a gamist or a narrativist mostly in your GM style? If so, perhaps your players are just thinking meta or 'no first use'. I mean, after all, say they adopt consumables in a big way. You'll just ratchet up the challenges right, having your opponents using many of the same consumables. Then they'll be right back to the same spot they were before, with more swingy and volatile fights, and have the burden of inventory management which they didn't have before.
Of course, if you're a simulationist, the world doesn't give a damn whether you use consumables---OPFOR will use them if they have the means, motive and opportunity to do so regardless of things like CR or whether your party uses them.
Nobody seems to have exactly the same definitions for those terms, so I won't answer the question that way.
I will say I tend to run the modules as written. I often increase the mooks if a 'major' fight looks like it will be too easy. I don't majorly re-write things unless the part is obviously getting bored since the fights are all too easy or if they have gone way off the rails and into territory the module did not expect.
Yes, the opposition will use the consumables against the players if they have them.
Edit: I only GM about 1/3 the time. They have the same attitude with the other GM.
In order to make consumables cost efficient for everyday use, I suggest concentrating on wands, particularly ones you make yourself. Scrolls are a next-best choice, very good for spells you expect to use infrequently.
Gold price per casting for spell level, 1st, 2nd, 3rd:
Potion = 50, 300, 750
Scroll = 25, 150, 375
Wand = 15, 90, 225
Self crafted
Potion = 25, 150, 375
Scroll = 12.5, 75, 187.5
Wand = 7.5, 45, 112.5
My top choices for character builds would be:
- Magus with Wand Wielder
- Wizard with Staff-Like Wand
- Arcane Sorcerer (Crosswind's build)
- Arcane Trickster
- Half-elf cleric with Arcane Training (favored class Wizard)
Send them against a group of NPCs that use consumables. Rogues running around shooting lightning bolts from wands, flying two-handed fighters. Make sure to not put any spell casters with them. When they ask how they're doing it, just tell them, "Oh, he's holding a wand." They will learn.
That is part of the issue. They are very much have not learned that lesson.
Ex: Party was 5th level. End fight was a 4th level cleric, 4th level ranger, and 6x2ns level warriors. Should be easy. However, the bad guys were warned substantially before the PC's got to them. So they were really buffed up with several wands, potions, and scrolls. And had prepared the area with things like darkness and grease. It was actually a very tough fight.
They were all very suprised and amazed when I told them what the enemy levels were and that it was mostly difficult because of the consumables used. Their response was "Well that only works for NPC's. They don't care if they blow all their cash on one fight. But they didn't blow all their cash in one fight. You looted a bunch of wands that are still mostly full and you have duplicates of the scrolls and potions used. It's the same thing."
They were irritated about getting a bunch of stupid consumables that are only good for NPC's and sold them at the first opportunity even though they didn't get a good price.
That's why I was considering running a 'batman belt' PC to show them that it can work well for PC's.
In order to make consumables cost efficient for everyday use, I suggest concentrating on wands, particularly ones you make yourself. Scrolls are a next-best choice, very good for spells you expect to use infrequently.
Gold price per casting for spell level, 1st, 2nd, 3rd:
Potion = 50, 300, 750
Scroll = 25, 150, 375
Wand = 15, 90, 225Self crafted
Potion = 25, 150, 375
Scroll = 12.5, 75, 187.5
Wand = 7.5, 45, 112.5My top choices for character builds would be:
All of these classes can craft their own wands & scrolls.
- Magus with Wand Wielder
- Wizard with Staff-Like Wand
- Arcane Sorcerer (Crosswind's build)
- Arcane Trickster
- Half-elf cleric with Arcane Training (favored class Wizard)
Nice cost summary. It helps.
I like the concept of staff-like wand, but our campaigns are usually ending about the time it can be taken.
I had not considered the arcane trickster. I will have to give that some more thought.
Might consider the cleric. I'm running a life oracle right now so that might be too close. But I will think about it.
I like the concept of staff-like wand, but our campaigns are usually ending about the time it can be taken.
Yeah, I've always disliked the level requirement for that particular feat.
I'll repeat what I said in the last thread.
I LOVE consumables, and I'll use 'em every chance I get.
I HATE to BUY consumables, because if I sink money into it then I feel like it's a waste to use it when I "don't need it" so I'll always save it until I have absolutely no other option.
Apparently my GM understands this and feels the same way, because all of our loot is consumables pretty much, which takes away the guilt factor of buying them and frees up all the wealth for permanent items. It's a win/win.
Except grenades. I love buying grenades for any character. They're fairly inexpensive for what is effectively a low level Necklace of Fireballs use. I know when my Monk multiclasses to Alchemist I'm gonna have a LOT of fun being able to make them whenever I want.
To echo one of my players: "Oh crap, we're finding Potions of Water Breathing. This means we're going to run into an underwater adventure."
Consumables can be useful, but nobody wants to deal with them running out. Aside from a wand of Cure Light Wounds for the cleric to use, and a potion of Cure Moderate Wounds to get him up and operational, most people don't want to deal with them.
5% more chance to avoid effect is better than wand/potion/item which can rid of problem 0_o ? Not to mention that cloaks of resistance/armors +1 etc is the most common spoil?
Sounds like these players should try Carrion Crown:D
5% more chance to avoid effect is better than wand/potion/item which can rid of problem 0_o ? Not to mention that cloaks of resistance/armors +1 etc is the most common spoil?
Sounds like these players should try Carrion Crown:D
Oddly enough, that is the AP we are currently playing. We have really been struggling.
Give up.
I got the hang of using consumables when I played as a cleric in Carrion Crown. Blinded? I have a scroll of Remove Blindness. Poisoned? Delay Poison. Triggered a Symbol of Pain? Delay Pain. Level-draining enemies? I have Death Ward and Restoration. And for the last few battles I made sure I had some level 8 and 9 scrolls ready to go - what's the point of a permanent +1AC when you're probably going to retire after six more battles and you could cast Mass Heal twice for the same price?
But: in a lot of the computer games I play, I never use the consumables if I can possibly help it. It's not that I don't think they'd be useful, or that I expect they'll more useful in the future. It's that winning while using consumables feels like a failure, because I won less efficiently than if I hadn't used any. Often I'm loaded down by the weight of my potions, but I still won't drink them. (Except healing potions, for some reason.)
You could try telling them that by the end of the campaign, the money spent on a few dozen low level scrolls will be insignificant, or that 'permanent' upgrades aren't really permanent because they won't be using them forever, only until they win / die / find a better one. But it probably won't work.