Basic question. Most people say that Vital Strike is only good for large damage dice creatures who strictly use Natural Weapons, and they are quite right to make such a claim. Most PC's are Medium to Large (maybe Huge, but not much bigger than that) in size, compared to the Gargantuan/Colossal sized creatures who are dealing insane damage dice (8D6, anyone?). Since a Vital Strike can only be used as a single attack as a Standard Action (which most monsters with Natural Weapons do), it only makes sense that they select the Vital Strike chain (and its correlatory feats) to make that attack reach an insane amount of damage before static bonuses are added.
Since the feat seems to severely support the concept of insane Natural Weapon damage dice, and the only things that really use such a feat are Monsters (or PCs that change into said Monsters that would already have the feats to begin with), why not just make it a Monster Combat feat instead of just a Monster feat?
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I don't understand your question.
If a monster meets the requirements for a feat, a monster can select a feat. The only requirement for the feat is +6 BAB and many monsters easily qualify.
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Because there's no reason for it to be.
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Actually, my question is the other way round:
Why keep the designation 'Monster Feat' at all?
Anyone who meets the prerequisities can take them anyway, and most of them have prerequisites that can be fulfilled by a PC without any problem, so why bother keeping yet another category?
Is there some way that critters get access to monster feats that would make the designation important?
At the moment this designation means: requires GM permission. Also it means (unless the rules have been changed, I don't follow them) it cannot be used by PFS characters.
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At the moment this designation means: requires GM permission. Also it means (unless the rules have been changed, I don't follow them) it cannot be used by PFS characters.
While you may be right about PFS (I don't know their rules), I have never once seen a reference to any rule that restricted the players from taking "Monster Feats" if they met the pre-requisites, permission or no. In fact, the section explicitly states "Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them", implying that players can take the feats. It never says "with GM permission" at all. IMO the idea that GM permission is necessary is just a legacy thought from previous editions wherein the bestiary and GMG were meant to be off-limits to players.
Unless it directly states otherwise, I'm going to assume that anything I'm given to use with an NPC can be used by a PC.
Actually, my question is the other way round:
Why keep the designation 'Monster Feat' at all?
Anyone who meets the prerequisities can take them anyway, and most of them have prerequisites that can be fulfilled by a PC without any problem, so why bother keeping yet another category?
Completely agree. Having a "monster" category serves no real purpose. All it does is confuse people.
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If Vital Strike were a monster feat then would Furious Finish be a special badger racial feat?
If vital strike was a monster feat instead of a combat feat fighters would not be able to take it as bonus feat anymore. Why would that be better?
As to only monsters take it: We have two martials in out Kingmaker game and both have, and sometimes use, vital strike.
I like to use Vital Strike too. You don't always get to make a full atack or a charge and this lets you make a nice bit of extra damage, if you use a big weapon.
Also good for destroying an object where you are not in a hurry, but need to overcome lots of hardness.
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If you don't like it, houserule it.
It would be a weird, and meaningless houserule, but it is your game.
Outside of PFS, there is nothing preventing PCs from taking Bestiary feats, other than houserules.
You can't change PFS, and you are free to ban any feat you want in your home game.
Reclassifying it yourself accomplishes absolutely nothing.
This is really a weird thing to be upset about.
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I actually don't mind the idea of monster feats. Simply a seperate listing of feats that, while players can take them, are more suitable for monsters.
Of course, nowadays gore/headbutt/claw/claw rend+pounce+rake+saute is de rigour for PCs, so it doesn't really make sense anymore.
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No monster should attack a crane style monk till everyone else is dead.I've had a GM throw at us a T-rex with the full VS chain.
The GM was giddy.
Our Crane Style Monk was ready.
The GM was not giddy any more.
rope trick. The Monk drew the T-Rex's attention Jurassic Park style ("hey, over here, yes, I'm tasty!"). We just waited until it was wounded enough to one-round it.
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No monster should attack a crane style monk till everyone else is dead.
I don't understand why on this forum it's apparently bad for a player to metagame even a little bit but the DM is supposed to go out of his way to look at the character's abilities and then have monsters completely counter them before they even know what they are.
The question I'm proposing is that the feat poses no benefit for PCs. Why even have it as a feat available to PCs? Mages don't use it, they have spells, scrolls, wands, etc. Martials don't use it, they have Full Attack Options that can be taken with every weapon they have, since their damage dice are a small factor of their overall damage in the long run (which is what Vital Strike supports). Archers don't use it, they have feats that heavily encourage them to use multiple attacks, their static bonuses highly outweigh any single attack feat chain, and is overall better to begin with. PCs with Natural Weapons are only dealing maybe 1D8 in base, and unless they grow into (the most common example) a T-Rex, why even have the feats, since that amount of damage dice for natural weapons is garbage, still making that Full Attack that much better?
I also see the point of "making it a monster feat changes nothing," though at the same time, it makes more sense to apply it as a monster feat that can be taken by monsters much more often, than by a PC who would take it at one in a million. It's hardly relevant to PCs; why make it a PC feat? It's the same thing as "Natural Armor" for Monsters. It's just as relevant to PCs as it is Monsters, why make it a Monster feat?
I've banned Acrobatic and Lightning Reflexes at my table because I don't think they're terribly impressive.
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Today one of my players asked to use a sword cane so I punched him in the face because everyone knows rapiers have a better crit range.
Sword canes should be moved to the bestiary, along with two-weapon fighting, fiend totem rage powers, half-elves, and monks.
On a scale of 1-10 how badass would a Furious Finish be on a Rage Domain Inquisitor who takes the Vital Strike tree?
Because that's what I've been planning for mine.
Don't assume that because you don't use it, no one else does. Vital Strike is a tree of feats and at it's end can be very useful when you're faced with damage reduction you can't ignore. It's also quite a powerful option when you don't have your full suite of iterative attacks.The question I'm proposing is that the feat poses no benefit for PCs. Why even have it as a feat available to PCs? Mages don't use it, they have spells, scrolls, wands, etc. Martials don't use it, they have Full Attack Options that can be taken with every weapon they have, since their damage dice are a small factor of their overall damage in the long run (which is what Vital Strike supports). Archers don't use it, they have feats that heavily encourage them to use multiple attacks, their static bonuses highly outweigh any single attack feat chain, and is overall better to begin with. PCs with Natural Weapons are only dealing maybe 1D8 in base, and unless they grow into (the most common example) a T-Rex, why even have the feats, since that amount of damage dice for natural weapons is garbage, still making that Full Attack that much better?
I also see the point of "making it a monster feat changes nothing," though at the same time, it makes more sense to apply it as a monster feat that can be taken by monsters much more often, than by a PC who would take it at one in a million. It's hardly relevant to PCs; why make it a PC feat? It's the same thing as "Natural Armor" for Monsters. It's just as relevant to PCs as it is Monsters, why make it a Monster feat?
Actually, I do use it, and I still don't see why I even use it with a 2D6 weapon. The most I can get out of it is a +12 damage bonus, and on average a +6/7 damage bonus. Compared to my Full Attack with Power Attack, I'd get another (unvaried) +18 bonus to damage. Bypassing DR becomes childsplay when you get enhancement bonuses to your weapon; even so, getting it specially made doesn't cost that much to bypass specific DR to begin with. I could factor in things like Enlarge Person, the Impact Weapon property (which won't stack with Lead Blades), etc. and it still won't amount to what I get with my Full Attack Option, considering those bonuses work on both subjects.
Honestly, the only good I can see coming from even taking that Vital Strike feat is that I can just switch it out later for something more important I didn't qualify for before, thanks to it being a Fighter Bonus Feat selection. It can probably be better spent on things like Improved Blind-Fight, or Iron Will, or what have you. The base feat alone by numbers can only barely constitute it being a decent Fighter retraining feat, much less the entire feat chain itself.
There is always going to be a means to get that Full Attack off, and quite easily, mind you. That party Wizard can easily help you get there with Dimension Door, or you can just use that Quick Runner's Shirt to get there by only costing you a Swift Action, and you can just Full Attack all you like until the idiot is dead, then move to the next. It's much easier (and also more common) for you to be making that Full Attack than it is to be using that Single Vital Strike attack (unless you're limited to making only a single attack in a given round, which generally means you're permanently Staggered/Slowed, or you're using Natural Weapons, in which case they better be 5D10 damage or so).
Vital Strike's strength is amplifying the damage dice of a given attack. It is no good if you have access to multiple attacks, or your base damage dice is garbage. You'd need 8D6 damage dice or higher for it to even begin to outweigh the static bonuses your feats will most likely be better spent on; commonly, the only PC that's going to be using that feat chain, is a T-Rex PC.
Now, if you come across a GM who's awesome enough to let you play as a T-Rex PC (I really would want to meet that guy by the way), then by all means, the feat chain and its correlations is your #1. Outside that, your feats are better spent on things that actually give you a common bonus that can be applied much more often than that one round or two in a given combat (and even then, there are ways around that).
I dunno about you but my GM doesn't have enemies just sit there and take it round after round the majority of the time.
Since when are melee fighters full-attacking every turn?
Edit: Oops, I forgot to meet my sarcasm quota this post, um, let's see, "As GM I ban standard actions, only full-round actions are allowed", that'll do.
Since when are melee fighters full-attacking every turn?
When aren't they is the question. It's simple...
Caster? He don't threaten, and chances are unless he has a readied spell, he can't do crap to you. Quick Runner's Shirt up there (or have the party caster use Dimension Door on you to move up to him if you're slow) and Full Attack. Or you can sit back and peg at him with a Composite Bow while getting up there. Or better yet, if you can Pounce, then by all means charge.
Martial? He's going to want to get up there and melee you just as much as you do him. Let him make the move. You got a bow, feel free to shoot until he gets in range, and then let him have it. Or you can use the Quick Runner's Shirt to get up there as a Swift with your weapon drawn, and now you're swinging it out.
Dragon? Boots of Flying Active, and a Dimension Door to his face, gouge the eyes out with that full attack, and you have a blind dragon who can only smell you, and will probably run into everything when flying away. Free Attacks of Opportunity!
Big Dumb Giant? Same thing. Dimension Door or the Quick Runner's Shirt (combined with some Acrobatics) and now you're clubbing away again.
There are plenty of tactics that PCs have at their disposal where they can just get in that zone without crossing thresholds, and doing their job the way it needs to be done.
So the alternatives are... invest heavily in switch-hitting, have a wizard with nothing better to do than cast Dimension Door on you every single turn just to buy you your iteratives, or only have one encounter per day so your Quick Runner's Shirt can be used constantly.
Riiight.
As to Vital Strike.. let them fix it, then discuss its merits. Til then, it's almost wasted space in the book.-James
Has there been talk of that? Fixing it?
Since when are melee fighters full-attacking every turn?When aren't they is the question. It's simple...
Caster? He don't threaten, and chances are unless he has a readied spell, he can't do crap to you. Quick Runner's Shirt up there (or have the party caster use Dimension Door on you to move up to him if you're slow) and Full Attack. Or you can sit back and peg at him with a Composite Bow while getting up there. Or better yet, if you can Pounce, then by all means charge.
Martial? He's going to want to get up there and melee you just as much as you do him. Let him make the move. You got a bow, feel free to shoot until he gets in range, and then let him have it. Or you can use the Quick Runner's Shirt to get up there as a Swift with your weapon drawn, and now you're swinging it out.
Dragon? Boots of Flying Active, and a Dimension Door to his face, gouge the eyes out with that full attack, and you have a blind dragon who can only smell you, and will probably run into everything when flying away. Free Attacks of Opportunity!
Big Dumb Giant? Same thing. Dimension Door or the Quick Runner's Shirt (combined with some Acrobatics) and now you're clubbing away again.
There are plenty of tactics that PCs have at their disposal where they can just get in that zone without crossing thresholds, and doing their job the way it needs to be done.
Why do you think the squishy caster is going to teleport himself in front of the dragon or WTF-ever every time you need to attack?
For that matter, why do you think the Quick Runner's Shirt lets you move and then full attack?
It just says it gives you an extra move action, not the ability to move and then do a full round action.
Yeah, Rynjin, right on both counts. I was going to point those out but it's obvious the guy is just venting.
Actually I take that back, Quick Runner's Shirt would let you move + full attack I guess.
Actually I take that back, Quick Runner's Shirt would let you move + full attack I guess.
How so?
It just says it gives you an extra move action, not the ability to move and then do a full round action.
Just of note:
Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions.
From what I understand, if you're getting to move, as a swift action, then you're fine to full attack afterward, because you still have a move and standard action to use for the full round. Basically.
I dunno, guess I could be wrong.
That said though, the ability to move probably 30 feet, maybe a bit more, once per day, is not going to ensure very many full attacks.
Still, it says ADDITIONAL move action. Which implies to me that it means you use your move action and then as a swift the Shirt allows you to make another one. It doesn't say "once a day you can make a move action as a swift action".
But you're right, it's not a huge deal either way.
Hmm, I see it like on your turn you have:
Swift
Move
Standard
In order to do a full round action, you need your Move and Standard. Regardless of how you do your actions, if you activate the shirt you basically have:
Move
Move
Standard
Leaving you with enough for a full round action, along with an extra move.
Again though, that's just the terms I'm thinking in. Might not be the correct way to do so.
Yeah I think an additional move action is still a move action regardless of how you used the rest of your turn. It's quite an abusable item for 1k I think, if people start buying a bunch of them and changing between fights O_0.
About the other idea though..
Still not sure how you get a mage to do nothing but shuttle you around with dimension door all the time putting themselves in harm's way as well.
Creative Director
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Monsters are built to be balanced for their CR, and that includes how much damage they do on average. Some monsters might skew low or high for their CR in the damage category, but overall, those damages are about right for their CR.
There's certainly no reason why you couldn't give monsters Vital Strike, but when you do, and when the monster has one particularly large attack that does lots of damage (such as a Tyrannosaurus bite), that can suddenly skyrocket the damage they do per round. Even though the monster's CR technically doesn't change if you swap one feat out for Vital Strike, it suddenly gets a LOT more powerful.
Something to keep in mind when giving monsters Vital Strike feats.
In any event, since monsters are designed to hit their damage targets without forcing them to take Vital Strike, it's not really a feat that really is intended to be an option for them.
Vital Strike's goal is, if I've interpreted the design team's design philosophy correctly, an attempt to address the fact that fighters and other high BAB characters lose a lot of damage potential if they move and thus don't get a full attack. With Vital Strike's chain of feats, you can still be a high-level fighting type character who can move and still get in a pretty strong hit.
Whether or not the feat succeeds at making that tactic viable is a matter of opinion, and not one I'm interested in arguing, but that's what it was built for—to enable higher level characters more mobility on the combat field without forcing them to give up their extra attacks.
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Monsters are built to be balanced for their CR, and that includes how much damage they do on average. Some monsters might skew low or high for their CR in the damage category, but overall, those damages are about right for their CR.
There's certainly no reason why you couldn't give monsters Vital Strike, but when you do, and when the monster has one particularly large attack that does lots of damage (such as a Tyrannosaurus bite), that can suddenly skyrocket the damage they do per round. Even though the monster's CR technically doesn't change if you swap one feat out for Vital Strike, it suddenly gets a LOT more powerful.
Something to keep in mind when giving monsters Vital Strike feats.
In any event, since monsters are designed to hit their damage targets without forcing them to take Vital Strike, it's not really a feat that really is intended to be an option for them.
Vital Strike's goal is, if I've interpreted the design team's design philosophy correctly, an attempt to address the fact that fighters and other high BAB characters lose a lot of damage potential if they move and thus don't get a full attack. With Vital Strike's chain of feats, you can still be a high-level fighting type character who can move and still get in a pretty strong hit.
Whether or not the feat succeeds at making that tactic viable is a matter of opinion, and not one I'm interested in arguing, but that's what it was built for—to enable higher level characters more mobility on the combat field without forcing them to give up their extra attacks.
Between monsters being too good at vital strike and PCs often being a bit weak at it, I kind-of wish that Vital Strike was a flat +2d6 per feat. There may be some corner-cases where this makes the Vital Strike better than a full-round, but I think I'd be okay with that.
Whether or not the feat succeeds at making that tactic viable is a matter of opinion, and not one I'm interested in arguing, but that's what it was built for—to enable higher level characters more mobility on the combat field without forcing them to give up their extra attacks.Between monsters being too good at vital strike and PCs often being a bit weak at it, I kind-of wish that Vital Strike was a flat +2d6 per feat. There may be some corner-cases where this makes the Vital Strike better than a full-round, but I think I'd be okay with that.
That seems a fair solution. As it is, in my home games, I like making Vital Strike one feat that scales with level instead of a whole tree. Three feats seem too much, even for a fighter at 20th level.
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/tangent: Crane Style doesn't work against natural attacks. It only deflects "melee weapon attacks". tangent/
Also, +1 to "Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean everyone else does."
I have a Fighter(TWW) that when he closes in on his oppenent uses Vital Strike with his Doublestrike class feature.
TWF with Bastard Swords, VS Chain, and Power Attack...
Nearly every Martial I build picks up the VS feat chain if they can fit it in.
That one is not technically legal as far as I know but if your DM is cool with it more power to you.
/tangent: Crane Style doesn't work against natural attacks. It only deflects "melee weapon attacks". tangent/
Also, +1 to "Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean everyone else does."
Wut.
Natural attacks ARE melee attacks.
Everything that's not a ranged attack is a melee attack.
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Find me the CRB quote that says something is a melee weapon just because it is a weapon that makes melee attacks. Checkmate.
(I do not understand the English language at any level.)
That one is not technically legal as far as I know but if your DM is cool with it more power to you.
From what I understood it just modified the Standard Attack Action.