I've got a game with some new players coming up, so after much consideration i have decided that a bard would be the best class for me to play.
Though i will primarily be a buffing skill-monkey, but I also require that i be effective in combat. I have no doubt there will be times when my experience and tactical acumen will be required; being efficient in combat will be necessary.
Party make up for those who care: Archer Ranger (new) melee Rogue (new) Utility Wizard, Melee?/Healing Cleric (new).
20 point buy, Human bard
STR 14 (16)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 14
1 Arcane Strike
1 Lingering Performance
3 Improved Initiative
5 Power Attack
7 Discordant Voice
9 Cleave
11
13
15
I was planning on using a longsword and a buckler; one handed or two handed depending on the situation. I would snag a chainshirt ASAP, as well as a metamagic rod: Quicken, Lesser.
I am interested in Eldritch Heritage feats, I am just not certain which is best for a Bard. Arcane actually seemed pretty good, but I didn't want to commit.
(If I do this, I would probably take the Focused Study alternate human trait: First skill focus would be for the EH bloodline, the others would be in various Perform skills to milk Versatile Performance.)
Are there any other feats I should look at?
What Eldritch Heritage Bloodline should i take, if any at all?
Any really great items for Bards I have missed?
Thanks in advance everyone!
How do you get Discordant Voice at level 7? Isn't that level 10 or thereabouts?
And if you want to be effective in melee, I'd put a bit more in Strength (even just one, to increase further at level 4).
requirements of 10 ranks means you must be lvl ten to take it. The +3 ones gets for it being a class skill are not ranks.
Cleave is not worth it in the long run. It is not long before battles turn into fewer strong foes and less weaker mooks.
Hands down the best thing for a battle bard is to use a longspear. Take flag bearer feat and attach a Banner of the Ancient Kings to the spear.
With that combo since you are using a longspear you could look at the spear dancer feat as well. Free dazzle on anything you hit.
-Edit- this is only my opinion mind you but I honestly don't find Eldritch Heritage worth it for classes without bonus feats of some sort to lessen the pain of the high cost. That's just me though.
You do indeed need 10 ranks in Perform (sing or oratory) to take Discordant Voice, so you can't take it any earlier than lv 11. If only it was bonus dependant, then my own Bard could've taken it at lv 3 ;)
I don't know anything about proper Melee Bards, but since you've built it up to level 9 in feats, where are you planning to put your stat increases? Remember that you will need a higher Charisma score if you ever want to cast 5th and 6th level spells (although at the levels where that becomes relevant, you should easily be able to afford a Headband of Alluring Charisma). Just throwing it out there.
If you want to be economic about your feat selection to boost several perform skills, go Prodigy. +2 to 2 Perform skills of your choice, which increases to +4 when you have 10 ranks in them. While you don't supercharge anything as much as you do with skill focus, you do get more bonus for your feat.
Furious Focus, EH(orc), IEH(orc), Quicken SLA.
Just remember that your inspire courage is going to make up a huge part of your damage potential.
As you have it built (@ lvl 12, +4 Str belt, +3 longsword and buckler)you will do (CR12 monster AC 27):
1-handed + inspire courage: 24 DPR / 25 DPR (no power attack)
1-handed: 12 DPR / 13 DPR (no power attack)
2-handed + inspire courage: 25 DPR / 25 DPR (no power attack)
2-handed: 12 DPR / 13 (no power attack)
The buckler kills any real damage bump from going 2-handed. Power attack hurts your damage.
I would only take power attack if you absolutely want cleave. Otherwise, weapon focus is going to give you a bigger DPR bump.
How do you get Discordant Voice at level 7? Isn't that level 10 or thereabouts?
And if you want to be effective in melee, I'd put a bit more in Strength (even just one, to increase further at level 4).
He's using a longsword and buckler - strength isn't that important for him.
Some suggestions:
1.) Look into Arcane Duelist. Right now, you have to use a buckler because you need 1 hand free to cast spells. But if you cast spells, you're losing buckler AC anyways. Arcane Duelist will let you cast spells with your longsword, which will let you use a heavy shield in your off-hand. Also, it'll get you into Medium Armor eventually, then heavy, with no ASF.
...
Lots of good points. I would point out, however, that depending on how it is rules 2HW does not work for arcane duelist in all cases: If you need materials, you might need eschew materials as well since the AD arcane bond ability only allows you to use your weapon for somatic components, not materials :-)
But yes, AD sounds pretty much what the OP wants :-)
1.) I actually want to stay away from Arcane Duelist.
Our Rogue has made it VERY clear that he is a combat rogue, not much else.
I really want the standard Bard know it all. Someone needs to be a face and skill monkey; I'm happy to do it as a veteran player.
The other problem with AD is that you need your weapon to cast a spell, and you have to be able to wave it around... awkward to say the least in social situations.
2.) Somehow I skimmed over Discordant Voice prerequisites... I didn't even notice the skill ranks requirement.
3.) So Eldritch Heritage is sounding (mostly) like a no...?
4.) Lab Rat, where are you getting these DPR numbers from? Would Power Attack be worth it without the buckler? (maybe Weapon focus and Power Attack?)
If you're going to take Power Attack as a bard, you might want to take Furious Focus on top of it, so you don't hurt your "to hit" too much. Nothing's stopping you from using your sword two-handed, after all.
Well, I had seen on a few other threads about Bards that a Longsword and buckler was a good set up for a bard, so I am a bit surprised to see other choices very much in favor.
I had assumed that longsword and buckler was favored for a one or two handed approach with a choice between offense or defense every round.
Furious Focus may be a good idea as well, though Weapon Focus does better in early levels...
If you want a Melee Bard look at Arcane Duelist archetype, or possibly sandman, lets you get some sneak attack so you can double flank with the party rogue.
Arcane duelist eventually puts you in heavier armor, technically, with the group you are running with, you would eventually end up int he heaviest armor of the entire group.
and then, if you aren't overly attached to spells. there is Battle Herald, lots of bardy performance but low on the pesky spells.
Look, i don't really want my focus to be melee... I want it to be buffing and skills. However, I want to be competent in melee, in part to provide flanking for our rogue, or to provide some back line protection for the wizard or archer.
In short, I still don't want to be an Arcane Duelist. I don't need be one, in fact it loses out on several things I really want to keep. So, in fact, I shouldn't be one.
I also think the whole tripping thing is overrated, especially on a 3/4 BAB class with no bonus feats. Its a bit feat intensive.
I only went to level 9 because i couldn't think of what other feats I wanted, though I would start at 1 or 2, and it would be a long term game, reaching fairly high levels I imagine.
We may also get a fighter, we'll see.
I am attached to my spells, no thanks on the Battle Herald.
I just want a bard thats decent in melee, thats all.
Thanks for the advice everyone, any more ideas?
I am not asking to be great at melee... just decent.
Consider level 10, assuming 18 STR:
1d8 +1d6 (Discordant Voice) +6 (two handed STR) +2 (Inspire Courage) +3 (Arcane Strike) +6 (Power Attack).
This assumes NO magic items: 1d8+1d6+19, an average of 27 damage/hit. Its not great, but its not horrible, which is what i am going for. Inspire Courage bonus to attacks makes up for the lower attack bonus courtesy of Power Attack.
Is this really that bad?
Well then, define decent.
Without looking back at refrances I can tell you the +2 from inspire courage to hit bonuses (it does increase to hit, yea?) will negate the power attack penalty at your BAB level. this will leave you with a +11 to hit; 4 str + 7 BAB. Your second attack this round will be shot though, with a +6 to hit; 4 str + 2 BAB. Still not too bad considering, but it depends on the situation.
I don't really see why buckler + longsword is a good idea. Attacking with both hands will give you a -1 attack penalty and you lose the buckler's AC bonus. And for what? +4 damage? At level 10? Really?
You have so many damage bonuses that don't increase with two hands and those that do get better with both hands are hindered by your low-ish strength and medium BAB.
I say either use a shield or don't. For your support-bard, I'd just use a shield all the time. Your AC is bad enough even without losing it whenever you attack. Even with the shield you are pretty much forced to use defensive spells if you want to be anywhere near the frontline. Without the shield, you'll hit the ground in no time.
If you really want the minor damage bonus for a two-handed weapon, drop the buckler. Get a wand of shield or something.
It boils down to AC vs. Damage. Your attack bonus should be decent either way with inspire courage, flanking and heroism. For a melee-bard, I'd say go two-handed. But your bard seems to be melee-ish at best. Let the rogue and ranger deal the damage. Just make sure you survive going into flanking position, so the rogue can actually do something.
Have you considered the dawnflower dervish? You give up a lot of party buffing, but the benefits to yourself almost let you keep up with the fighter.
Another option would be to fight with your shield as your weapon. As a bard you are proficient with heavy shields, so that's quite decent. You could go (featwise) like this:
1 improved shield bash
1 arcane strike
3 improved initiative
5 lingering performance
7 dodge
9 mobility
11 discordant voice
...
Alternatively go for another route starting at level 3
3 weapon focus (spiked heavy shield) -> hit better
5 dazzling display -> debuff foes
7 skill focus (intimidate) -> make that dazzling display work
9 great fortitude -> failing that save sucks
11 defensive combat training -> you don't want to be grappled, disarmed atc.
Make the shield a spiked bashing shield as soon as possible, and you'll have a 2d6 weapon that also boosts your AC.
You can always wield the shield in two hands, thus getting 1.5x strength bonus. Since you have one hand free, you have not trouble casting.
By the way, if you are opposed to AD solely because of the arcane bond, you can work around that:
Take skill focus (spellcraft), max your ranks, and with the stats array you provided above you will have at level 5 5+3(focus)+3(trained)+1(int)=12. With a take 10, which you usually should be able to in "social" situations, you get a 22 - enough to cast 2nd level spells without fail, your max at that level. Then you only need to put a few more ranks into it, and you are set for all the spells you can cast. The bond is not THAT bad to deal with. Just as an idea :-)
Shield bash is martial weapon. Shield proficiency is not the same as martial weapon proficiency (heavy shield). If you want to use your shield as a weapon, you need to waste a feat on the proficiency or take a level in a class that gains all martial weapons for free.
4.) Lab Rat, where are you getting these DPR numbers from? Would Power Attack be worth it without the buckler? (maybe Weapon focus and Power Attack?)
Tejon's DPR spreadsheet. It's on the forums somewhere.
Ditching the buckler:
1-handed damage is the same.
2-handed + inspire courage: 29 DPR
2-handed: 15 DPR
So ditching the buckler nets you +3 DPR
If you got rid of cleave and replaced it with weapon focus (PA + WF):
2-handed + inspire courage: 32 DPR
2-handed: 18 DPR
Weapon focus nets you +3 DPR
If you also take Furious focus:
2-handed + inspire courage: 37 DPR
2-handed: 22 DPR
Furious focus nets you another +4-5 DPR
Now we are getting somewhere! The issue now is that you don't have a shield, have light armor, and a middling Dex. So I would recommend that if you ditch the shield and go 2-handed that you grab a reach weapon. That means a longspear. You will have the same damage as a long sword but you can now hide behind your more meaty teammates. If you keep the shield go for a light shield. This will give you better AC.
The problem with reach is that you can't really "hide" behind your teammates without incurring the soft cover penalties of -4... which would be far worse than using a buckler.
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For support bard I recommend going Dex over Str. Along with improved initiative, and reactionary. Getting to go first in the initiative order so you can buff, or other wise affect combat is the most important thing you can do. If you go after the group most buffs you use will go to wast due to most fights lasting 1-3 rounds. This dose lower your DPR over all at the same time it increases the groups DPR.
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I am currently playing a melee Bard in the Serpent Skull AP. Although I am taking a very different path than the one you look to be taking I am having fun with him so far.
First I went Dervish Dancer for the Ultimate melee Bard IMO. Great melee Bard but a selfish Bard as all of his Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness abilities only effect him. I am going 2 handed weapon Falchion and sprinkling in 2 levels of Fighter Lore Warden for a few more feats and flavor as they teamed up with the Pathfinder Society.
At this point I am kind of at a loss as what feats to take next but will probably go with Weapon Focus Falchion and Lunge and Critical Focus Falchion. Then I will probably be done with any combat feats and I will concentrate on feats to improve my social skills.
I had thought about the Cleave chain as well but I am not sure at this point if it would be worth it for cleave and maybe Great Cleave.
Male Human (Keleshite) Bard (Dervish Dancer) 5 Fighter (Lore Warden) 1
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +9
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Defense
--------------------
AC 15, touch 11, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 66 (1d10+5d8+18)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +4; +4 vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependant effects
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Scimitar +8 (1d6+5/18-20/x2) and
. . Kukri +7 (1d4+3/18-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Falchion +8 (2d4+4/18-20/x2)
Ranged Shortbow +5 (1d6/x3)
Special Attacks bardic performance: countersong, bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate (2 targets) (dc 15), bardic performance: inspire competence +2, battle dance: inspire courage +2
Bard (Dervish Dancer) Spells Known (CL 5):
2 (3/day) Allegro, Versatile Weapon (DC 15), Mirror Image
1 (5/day) Saving Finale (DC 14), Comprehend Languages, Cure Light Wounds, Feather Fall (DC 14), Adoration, Feather Step (DC 14)
0 (at will) Resistance, Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Prestidigitation (DC 13), Message, Light
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +4; CMB +7; CMD 18
Feats Arcane Strike, Furious Focus, Improved Initiative, Power Attack -2/+4, Toughness +6
Traits Get the Cargo Through, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +11, Appraise +6, Climb +7, Diplomacy +11, Heal +2, Knowledge (arcana) +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (geography) +4, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (local) +4, Knowledge (nature) +6, Knowledge (planes) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Linguistics +6, Perception +9, Perform (dance) +11, Spellcraft +7, Stealth +5, Survival +4, Swim +7, Use Magic Device +8
Languages Aklo, Azlanti, Common, Kelish, Polyglot
SQ battle dance (move action) (15 rounds/day), fleet, well versed
Combat Gear Wand of Mirror Image; Other Gear Mithral Chain shirt, +1 Scimitar, Arrows, Kukri, Masterwork Falchion, Shortbow, Backpack, masterwork (12 @ 38.54 lbs), Bedroll, Belt pouch (3 @ 1 lbs), Bullseye lantern, Flint and steel, Healer's kit (10 uses), Mug/tankard, Oil (4), Sewing needle, Signal whistle, Spell component pouch, String or twine, Thread (50 ft.), Waterproof bag (empty), Waterskin, Whetstone, Assorted Gems, 996 GP, 6 SP, 1600 GP of Valuables
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (2 targets) (DC 15) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Competence +2 (Su) +2 competence bonus for one ally on a skill check.
Battle Dance (move action) (15 rounds/day) Battle dances can create bardic performance effects only on self.
Battle Dance: Inspire Courage +2 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Fleet (Su) Gain an enhancement bonus to speed when battle dancing.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Well Versed (Ex) +4 save vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependent effects.
--------------------
Attacks:Scimitar
Power Attack:+8 1d6+11
Inspire Courage: +9 1d6+7
Inspire Courage/Power +10 1d6+13
Inspire Courage/Power/Arcane Strike +10 1d6+15
Inspire Courage/Power/Arcane Strike/Allegro +11/+8 1d6+15
Attacks:Falchion
Power Attack:+8 2d4+10
Inspire Courage: +9 2d4+6
Inspire Courage/Power +10 2d4+12
Inspire Courage/Power/Arcane Strike +10 2d4+14
Inspire Courage/Power/Arcane Strike/Allegro +11/+9 2d4+14
Shield bash is martial weapon. Shield proficiency is not the same as martial weapon proficiency (heavy shield). If you want to use your shield as a weapon, you need to waste a feat on the proficiency or take a level in a class that gains all martial weapons for free.
Yes, you are right, forgot that one.
Well, you stated the options. I don't consider that feat to be a waste though - it allows a very different yet solid fighting style with stated options. :-)
I had thought about the Cleave chain as well but I am not sure at this point if it would be worth it for cleave and maybe Great Cleave.
I think cleave is probably a decent choice for a 3/4 BAB character. The reason being is that a 3/4 BAB character doesn't get a 3rd attack until lvl 15. So up until then you are getting better or the same number of attacks per round at a better to hit. Once you get that 3rd attack cleave still may be a good choice as the likely hood of landing that 3rd attack is very low.
The downside, of course, is that you are not focusing your damage on one enemy. However, that shouldn't be your job anyway; the full BAB classes do that much better. Your job, with cleave, is to finish off the extremely weakened enemies that the full BAB player didn't take down after a full attack.
I also agree that cleave isn't bad.
I would also consider the vital strike line, though. IMO it's better on a non-full BAB character than on a full BAB one. It let's you deal damage with your highest attack bonus, and if the weapon is good enough (see above shield bash e.g.) then you can hit hard quite reliably. If you are not playing a standing still fightery type of character, but a more mobile one, it helps you as well.
Downside is that you will get it late in the game (8th level), but it's still good.
Another option is boost dex, take weapon finesse and use a rapier. Damage is lower, but crit chance is higher. And once you have MW buckler (lvl 2 or so) you don't have to worry about the (for me) errata about shields messing with finesse attack rolls.
1) Finesse and Dodge (over all you will have better ac than currantly cause of higher dex)
2) go with what you were already thinking about, maybe suggest improved initiative, since buffs is your most important job.