Drinking an Alchemists mutagen with UMD: emulate class ability?


Rules Questions


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I had a genius idea on the weekend trying to milk some too hit against a rashasha normal hit to level CR DPR optimised build magus, alchemists and barbarians couldn't touch. The justicar can hit anything with all their stacking buffs. Does it work?

UMD (barbarian with dngerously curious).
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Mutagen.
a non-alchemist can never gain the benefit of a mutagen, but an alchemist can gain the effects of another alchemist's mutagen if he drinks it. (Although if the other alchemist creates a different mutagen, the effects of the “stolen” mutagen immediately cease.)

The alchemist had dropped. more str and AC rocks. If it works she will be forced to get
Infuse mutagen: When the alchemist creates a mutagen, he can infuse it with an extra bit of his own magical power. This inflicts 2 points of Intelligence damage to the alchemist and costs 1,000 gp in rare reagents, but the mutagen created persists on its own and is not rendered inert if the alchemist creates another mutagen. This allows an alchemist to create different types of mutagens and keep them handy for emergencies. This does not allow an alchemist to gain the effects of multiple mutagens—only the most recently imbibed mutagen has any effect.

Pretty swish to be used with a rogue and improved steal... stealing an alchemists mutagen and then stabbing themwith the extra strength (or dex) is made of irony win!


I'd say it's unlikely that that would work: "a non-alchemist can never gain the benefit of a mutagen, but an alchemist can gain the effects of another alchemist’s mutagen if he drinks it"


I'm not even sure if an alchemist mutagen is magical in the first place, so not sure UMD would even make sense.

But then I don't know much about alchemists having never played one.


I don't think so Tim.

Grand Lodge

A Mutagen is not a magic item, and not subject to UMD rules.

A Mutagen is an Alchemical substance.

Dark Archive

That "a non-alchemist can never gain the benefit of a mutagen" part looks like a pretty hardcore, dyed-in-the-wool, definitive NO to me.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

A Mutagen is not a magic item, and not subject to UMD rules.

A Mutagen is an Alchemical substance.

It's a Supernatural Ability (Su), not an alchemical substance.

Grand Lodge

Bearded Ben wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

A Mutagen is not a magic item, and not subject to UMD rules.

A Mutagen is an Alchemical substance.

It's a Supernatural Ability (Su), not an alchemical substance.

It's a Supernatural Ability, that allows an Alchemist, to create an Alchemical Substance, that only works for the creator.


The mutagen is never outright called an alchemical anything (although it is implied).


The fact that it's (Su) implies to me that it's magical, but the ability never actually states one way or another what the extract is. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a solid answer to this conflict; we have a very strongly stated rule on the one end, and a skill that is explicitly an exception to the rule on the other.

I'm not sure what I'd personally rule on this one. I always like saying "yes" to crazy ideas that just might work, but this one might be going too far. Definitely an interesting boundary case.


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Well...Firstly, RAW says UMD cannot utilize class features of another class (i.e. create mutagens, or count as being an Alchemist for the purposes of utilizing a mutagen), only that you classify as having that feature for the purposes of utilizing magic items that have such requirements; even doing so incurs a -20 penalty. A mutagen, while Supernatural, is not Magical(/Spell-Like), and thusly cannot be utilized with UMD.

Secondly, the mutagen can only be benefitted by Alchemists. All other classes receive no such benefit whatsoever; pretty cut and dry RAW regarding that.

So how does this add up? Quite simple, regarding a couple scenarios with the RAW:

1. PC picks up mutagen. Wants to be able to use mutagen, so makes UMD check at -20 penalty, with a DC that is equal to or inferior than the penalty incurred. Chances are, PC will fail, if not be outright unable to utilize a mutagen because UMD only works for Magical/Spell-Like Items, not Supernatural items.

2. PC picks up a mutagen, wants to be able to use mutagen to receive bonuses, and since a mutagen is a Supernatural item, does not fall under UMD category, nor is there a requirement to use a mutagen as a magical item. However, mutagen property specifically states PC's without alchemist levels can use a mutagen, but they receive no bonus for doing so.

Unfortunately this does not help in the situation presented, but it does prove that RAW, it cannot be done (unless you have a level in Alchemist). It also does prove, however, that RAW says you don't need UMD to use a Mutagen (which makes sense, since it's probably not much different to something like a potion, or injection, and that without proper training with Alchemists that you cannot apply a mutagen to any random point and automatically receive some selected benefit), and that UMD has no impact on the usability of a mutagen.


The "magic" of the mutagen, like extracts, only becomes magical when the alchemist 'casts' the spell or ability by actually using it.

It's inert with out the magical essence from the creator.


Mutagen (Su):
At 1st level, an alchemist discovers how to create a mutagen that he can imbibe in order to heighten his physical prowess at the cost of his personality. It takes 1 hour to brew a dose of mutagen, and once brewed, it remains potent until used. An alchemist can only maintain one dose of mutagen at a time—if he brews a second dose, any existing mutagen becomes inert. As with an extract or bomb, a mutagen that is not in an alchemist’s possession becomes inert until an alchemist picks it up again.

When an alchemist brews a mutagen, he selects one physical ability score—either Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. It’s a standard action to drink a mutagen. Upon being imbibed, the mutagen causes the alchemist to grow bulkier and more bestial, granting him a +2 natural armor bonus and a +4 alchemical bonus to the selected ability score for 10 minutes per alchemist level. In addition, while the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist takes a –2 penalty to one of his mental ability scores. If the mutagen enhances his Strength, it applies a penalty to his Intelligence. If it enhances his Dexterity, it applies a penalty to his Wisdom. If it enhances his Constitution, it applies a penalty to his Charisma.

A non-alchemist who drinks a mutagen must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier) or become nauseated for 1 hour—a non-alchemist can never gain the benefit of a mutagen, but an alchemist can gain the effects of another alchemist’s mutagen if he drinks it. (Although if the other alchemist creates a different mutagen, the effects of the “stolen” mutagen immediately cease.) The effects of a mutagen do not stack. Whenever an alchemist drinks a mutagen, the effects of any previous mutagen immediately end.

Looks pretty clear to me that a non alchemist can not gain any benefit from a mutagen. But there is an archetype (Oenopion Researcher), and an extract (Mutagenic Touch), that allow non alchemist's to gain a lesser version of mutagen.


Alchemists have a class feature that allows you to drink other alchemists mutagens.

You can emulate class features.

Silver Crusade

insaneogeddon wrote:


Alchemists have a class feature that allows you to drink other alchemists mutagens.

You can emulate class features.

Then, you would let a PC emulate a druid's venom immunity and chug poison with no ill effect?


insaneogeddon wrote:


Alchemists have a class feature that allows you to drink other alchemists mutagens.

You can emulate class features.

UMD RAW specifically states you cannot emulate the class features themselvs through the use of UMD, only that it allows you to treat yourself as if you had the class feature to activate an item which had that class feature as a requirement in order to use it, and that incurs a -20 penalty.

RAW regarding Mutagens also states that Non-Alchemist PC's drinking Mutagens must make a fortitude save or be nauseated for an hour (and that's severely debilitating), and that a Non-Alchemist PC can never receive benefits by consuming a Mutagen.

It's pretty cut and dry; bothering with the Mutagen is not only pointless, but also quite harmful according to RAW.


Doesn't work.

Use Magic Device lets you trick magic items into thinking you have class features. It does not let you use class features, which is what you'd be doing if you used UMD to use the mutagen.

Example:

An item says that if you have the flurry of blows class feature, you can activate it to gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls with unarmed attacks for some time. You could use UMD to trick it into thinking you had flurry of blows, and therefore gain the +2 to your unarmed attacks.

Now imagine if the item said that if you had flurry of blows class feature, you can activate it to gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls when using flurry of blows with unarmed attacks. You could not use UMD to trick this and get the +2 bonus to hit because it's dependent upon the use of the flurry of blows class feature, which you don't have.

There's also the oddity that this is a class feature as well as an item, but that's probably not worth getting into as you can't use the class feature anyways.

Grand Lodge

Mutagens are not magic devices that have any real existence separate from their creator. You'd be effectively trying to UMD a container of nonmagical slush.

The Emulate Class ability of UMD is only for the purposes of supplying a class ability you don't have, to activate a magic item. Mutagens are not magic items, they're expressions of a class ability.


Cheers. Pitty it cannot be done, odd rules jumbling.

The Exchange

Cheapy wrote:

Doesn't work.

Use Magic Device lets you trick magic items into thinking you have class features. It does not let you use class features, which is what you'd be doing if you used UMD to use the mutagen.

<truncated>

actually, I ask that we take a step back and evaluate the difference between an Alchemist and any other PC class.

that difference is only one class feature: Alchemy (Su).

so, as a non-alchemist drinking a mutagen, I could gain the effects by emulating that I had this class ability and the mutagen will work fine for me.

which is the same as Cheapy's example with using an item that says you can use it if you have Flurry of Blows

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