| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Anyone female changing in boob plate for non boob plate should get suspended and possibly banned. That's griefing in my eyes
I'd really hate for PFO to become a hostile environment for female players.
Goblin Squad Member
|
Lol it's a joke. I thought the whole direction of the discussion was definitely odd anyways, discussing the whole logistics of hammering out n refitting plate for different players.
Probably should keep your gender (or race, religious, political) jokes to yourself. Just saying. When they call the attention of a Project Manager (or any other forum admin type) then your joke most likely was not funny or appropriate.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Lol it's a joke. I thought the whole direction of the discussion was definitely odd anyways, discussing the whole logistics of hammering out n refitting plate for different players.
Yes, I'm aware that it was intended as a joke. That doesn't alter its effect. Words mean things.
I would hate to see the PFO community and environment start participating in the worst aspects of videogame/MMO culture before the game even gets launched. :-)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fair enough, though to be honest that's a fairly not safe for work thing to post there, even if it is only a link. But since you're somehow hinting that im the type to say and do those sorts of things you feel entitled to do so.
Mind you, I'm not an admin so obviously my comment about suspending someone was in jest. Additionionally, I hope you're not offended over my saying boob plate I wasn't the first to mention that. Finally, I mentioned griefing because it seems to be THE hot topic about this game.
By all means, crusade on.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm certainly not implying that you're the type to do or say anything beyond what you actually said here. Saying that someone's sexist remark has a similar effect to homophobic remarks isn't accusing them of homophobia; it's saying that sexist remarks have a similar effect to homophobic remarks.
And no, I'm not personally offended by the term "boob plate," or even by minimally-clothed human forms.
But a statement that women should be suspended for choosing less scanty costumes, even uttered in jest, implies that I only have a place in the game if I am providing you with visual gratification. I don't play games to provide you with gratification. I play them to play games. That's my personal objection.
As a contribution to an exclusionary environment, it also potentially drives away new players of different backgrounds, genders, orientations, etc., which is counter to supporting the success of this project. That's my professional objection.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Lol it's a joke. I thought the whole direction of the discussion was definitely odd anyways, discussing the whole logistics of hammering out n refitting plate for different players.Yes, I'm aware that it was intended as a joke. That doesn't alter its effect. Words mean things.
I would hate to see the PFO community and environment start participating in the worst aspects of videogame/MMO culture before the game even gets launched. :-)
Thank you for posting that link, the article was great. I wish I could get my meaning across that well when I try to explain how using 'retarded', and its various short forms, as synonyms for 'stupid' isn't cool.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wish I could get my meaning across that well when I try to explain how using 'retarded', and its various short forms, as synonyms for 'stupid' isn't cool.
Agreed, though the awkward silence after someone calls you a 'retard' and you go "well, yes, I am, and I'd really appreciate if you didn't use my medical condition as an insult" is pure gold.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, this thread has been derailed.
I hope I did not offend. As far as I know, boob plate is the term which is thrown around for a breastplate which conforms to the breasts, including in articles mocking it and objecting to it. If there is another term in common use, I have not heard it.
Nonetheless, if anyone was offended, I offer an unqualified apology.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wish I could get my meaning across that well when I try to explain how using 'retarded', and its various short forms, as synonyms for 'stupid' isn't cool.
My wife gets me on that all the time. I come from a Navy background where we say all sorts of foul things that don't actually have much intended meaning. I'm trying hard to curb back that training. :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But a statement that women should be suspended for choosing less scanty costumes, even uttered in jest, implies that I only have a place in the game if I am providing you with visual gratification. I don't play games to provide you with gratification. I play them to play games. That's my personal objection.
As a contribution to an exclusionary environment, it also potentially drives away new players of different backgrounds, genders, orientations, etc., which is counter to supporting the success of this project. That's my professional objection.
Sorry but I have a hard time believing you can make it through a single day in the real world if you are that sensitive. This seems like the actions of somebody who was circling this thread purposefully looking to pounce on anyone who came remotely close to something sexist/homophobic.
I vote for a thread lock, this wasn't going to end any other way.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Some of us would rather live in a world where sexism, homophobia, and all other manner of bigoted, exclusionary behavior wasn't tacitly okayed by silence.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
But a statement that women should be suspended for choosing less scanty costumes, even uttered in jest, implies that I only have a place in the game if I am providing you with visual gratification. I don't play games to provide you with gratification. I play them to play games. That's my personal objection.
As a contribution to an exclusionary environment, it also potentially drives away new players of different backgrounds, genders, orientations, etc., which is counter to supporting the success of this project. That's my professional objection.
Sorry but I have a hard time believing you can make it through a single day in the real world if you are that sensitive. This seems like the actions of somebody who was circling this thread purposefully looking to pounce on anyone who came remotely close to something sexist/homophobic.
I vote for a thread lock, this wasn't going to end any other way.
Thread does not need to be locked. The issue was handled, and for the record I disagree with the assessment of Avari of the situation. Sure, what was said was most surely said in jest, but having been on game forums for 15+ years now when is the time that this "little boy" humor stops? Everything doesn't have to be funny. Everything doesn't have to be a boob joke.
Believe me, I've said my share of them. Was in the Army for a good while. That said, and strangely on topic, as I mentioned earlier in this thread is that it's not only straight white males playing these games now. People need to THINK before they open their traps. When your "joke" has a qualifier of a trait that belongs to another human being, best keep it to yourself and immediate friends that you know won't take offense.
They don't, however, and say what they want because the internet prevents one thing: the other person punching you in the face for saying it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ Jameow: If they went with the UO option, how would you want GW to handle the following situations?
Alice has Boob Plate. Barbara defeats her and can loot her armor. Barbara does not want Boob Plate.
Alice has Boob Plate. Barbara wants to buy it, and Alice is willing to sell it, but Barbara does not want Boob Plate.
Alice has Boob Plate, but now Bob loots/buys from her. Does he have to take a Magical Mankini? In other words, if there is a sexualized version and a realistic version of the armor, does it transfer when given back and forth between characters of differing sex? Or is the sexualized armor specific to the gender that wears it?
Cliff crafts plate. Does he have to declare he is crafting Boob Plate/Magical Mankini before her starts? Can the customer decide whether to change the appearance of the good at the time of purchase? Is the sexualized gear easier or harder to create?
That's easy...
I kill a goblin and he drops a shortsword but I only use gnome pickaxes...I sell the sword.
The goblin tries to trade me a shortsword...I tell him I only use gnome picks and if he wants my money he'll go craft a pick.
Third is IMO too far in the weeds. (Now that I think about it, the whole idea of tactical vs. sexual armor is too far in the weeds) This is a case against making Tactical vs. Sexual options for armor.
So is the fourth.
I understand the principle of the discussion. Maybe this would be a compromise...
Item (Studded Leather) is armor.
Characters have a selection in options to enable/disable heroic outfits.
With it enabled, equiping Studded Leather turns a woman into Kate Beckinsale from Underworld or a man into Thor.
With it disabled, they both look sorta plan unisex.
Still that requires four image maps for each set instead of 2.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
To elaborate the original point a bit:
But if it fits the region in the setting, go crazy.We're in luck then, as the River Kingdoms are so decentralized and open that the phrase, "Anyone, anywhere, at any time" points to the truth. Sure there will be a notable majority, but encountering a traveler/resident of a minority group shouldn't be unexpected, even if it may also be mildly surprising.
I can't speak for Goblinworks' plans for representing ethnicities, but regarding the setting—yep, the River Kingdoms are a melting pot, partly given their position on the Sellen River/Crusader Road (the lures of trade and war), and partly because it's a big chunk of unclaimed land where people can go to start anew, make their mark on the world, or simply disappear. So you could be or encounter folks from about any ethnicity there!
For example, we know Garundi clans have migrated into southern Avistan in search of new territory; as those regions are claimed, one could easily imagine younger clans moving farther and farther north, looking for their own lands. Or you could be or run into the survivors of a failed attempt to re-open the trade route from Tian Xia over the Crown of the World and south toward Ustalav and the Sellen River's trade routes via the Icestair.
And that's not counting people whose ancestors came to Avistan generations ago (war, trade, curiosity, exile...) individually or with their families and simply decided to stay.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry but I have a hard time believing you can make it through a single day in the real world if you are that sensitive. This seems like the actions of somebody who was circling this thread purposefully looking to pounce on anyone who came remotely close to something sexist/homophobic.
Saying "you must be too sensitive", or that someone is seeking to be offended is like saying "I'm sorry you're offended" instead of a real apology. It's a way to avoid thinking about if what was said was actually offensive. It wasn't funny, and Jessica is right on point when she points out the implications.
I vote for a thread lock, this wasn't going to end any other way.
Comments like this aren't helpful either. If you don't want to be part of a conversation, then don't.
If someone is genuinely causing a problem, flag them and move on. Otherwise there is no reason to shut down a conversation when you can just click the hide button.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lol it's a joke. I thought the whole direction of the discussion was definitely odd anyways, discussing the whole logistics of hammering out n refitting plate for different players.
I got the absurdity of the joke.
In that sense, my handiness comment was a similar joke. Whenever someone gets stuck on 'what about having X represented?' I'm prone to ask about the lefties.
While I'd love to play a left handed Aldori dueling sword warrior, it won't ruin the game for me, any more than not being able to play a fat Grey Warden in Dragon Age did. Pathfinder has been good at realistic armor. I expect real (and unreal) armor to be the norm in the MMO
(Aside, I can make a fat avatar in Playstation Move. I find it funny to make a virtual me match a real me.)
Some of us would rather live in a world where sexism, homophobia, and all other manner of bigoted, exclusionary behavior wasn't tacitly okayed by silence.
And some of us would rather live in a world where we can freely speak and associate with those who agree with us, or avoid those who don't.
Production Specialist
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm certainly not implying that you're the type to do or say anything beyond what you actually said here. Saying that someone's sexist remark has a similar effect to homophobic remarks isn't accusing them of homophobia; it's saying that sexist remarks have a similar effect to homophobic remarks.
And no, I'm not personally offended by the term "boob plate," or even by minimally-clothed human forms.
But a statement that women should be suspended for choosing less scanty costumes, even uttered in jest, implies that I only have a place in the game if I am providing you with visual gratification. I don't play games to provide you with gratification. I play them to play games. That's my personal objection.
As a contribution to an exclusionary environment, it also potentially drives away new players of different backgrounds, genders, orientations, etc., which is counter to supporting the success of this project. That's my professional objection.
Jessica is 100% correct in this. Saying "boob plate" has nothing to do with this. Implying that female characters MUST dress proactively or be banned or punished is a sexist comment and should be called out. Yes, obviously it was meant as a 'joke', but it's a joke that hues uncomfortably close to reality, enforces negative sterotypes, and promotes Pathfinder Online and paizo.com as "dudes only" clubhouses.
Part of Paizo's success is in making sure people who've been ignored or rejected by geeks culture for a long time have a place they feel comfortable and represented. We'll call out sexist jokes just as surely as we will racist or homophobic ones.
|
|
Sorry for causing so much trouble, judging by the reactions I may have been out of order. I was simply making a joke, and I suppose if it elicits such a reaction then it wasn't the best thing to do.
Nevertheless, withdrawn support from the Kickstarter for PFO. Hopefully things get funded, as I'm keeping $100 in the pot for the print products *grin*. However, I've not much intention of playing a game where I have to walk on eggshells. I just feel that real life is enough of that, and the last thing I'd want is to get in trouble (suspended, banned) in a game I'd slapped $100 on the year before.
And yes, still supporting PF and Paizo products cause, they're awesomeness ;p
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry but I have a hard time believing you can make it through a single day in the real world if you are that sensitive. This seems like the actions of somebody who was circling this thread purposefully looking to pounce on anyone who came remotely close to something sexist/homophobic.
*wry* I've survived five years in the highly misogynistic videogame industry, and maintained good relationships with almost all my colleagues therein, so I think my sensitivity level's calibrated just fine, thanks. But calling out behavior harmful to a game community != oversensitivity.
You like seeing beautiful, scantily-clad females? Great. So do I! I love the female form, and I have some gorgeous fantasy pinup art hanging proudly in my home.
But saying you like, say, Seoni's costume is very different from saying "any female character not dressed like Seoni has no place in this game." That's not "remotely close to [sexism]," that's smack-dab in the middle of it.
My colleagues at Paizo have done a great job building a game world that embraces a diversity of roles for characters of different races, genders, backgrounds, philosophies, etc., and they continue to make an effort every day to ensure that we think about what we put out there and how it affects our player base, which, accordingly, is diverse as well. Our products don't position dressing like Seoni as better than dressing like Kyra, and are therefore liked both by people who want to play characters dressed like Seoni and people who want to play characters dressed like Kyra. Part of the reason I took a job here is because I think Paizo is an industry leader in that regard.
That care in ensuring that groups often excluded from participation in fantasy/game settings are represented has also helped form an amazing, inclusive community here on paizo.com. Actively encouraging that type of environment, and discouraging the sort of things that damage it, is important to me. Great communities don't just happen: they are built by active participation by the membership in supporting the sort of environment they want to be part of.
And I can't see any reason, if you love a thing, not to want to share it with as many people who will also love it as possible. :-)
I yield the floor.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Sheesh, so many new names popping in here. Did you guys send out a mailer or something?
Point made, and it's fair enough: Paizo can control the speech used in its private space.
Whatever the aim of that is, or why we should adopt it in our private lives is of no consequence.
Can we get back on topic?
Personally, I think the extra textures for armor is a really cool idea with the ability to click an option to 'switch' the display. My only concern is the resources involved... maybe go with the 'traditional' look of armor for MMOs to start. Then again, by not doing so, GW might get some extra attention for breaking the norm. I'm undecided.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
@Kakafika,
Jessica has much more knowlege in this field than I, but I agree on the resources thing. Short of allowing people to upload their own outfits, they have to set a limit. Which means not everyone will be satisfied.
And if the final product allowed people to form their own outfits, we'd have to worry about Pimp-daddy Destro being encountered.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Part of Paizo's success is in making sure people who've been ignored or rejected by geeks culture for a long time have a place they feel comfortable and represented. We'll call out sexist jokes just as surely as we will racist or homophobic ones.
I find that a refreshing and unfortunately all too uncommon stance. Thanks!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@Jessica Price,
First, I think you were totally right to speak up and "nip it in the bud", and I appreciate you doing so even though it generated some negativity.
Second, that is an utterly mesmerizing avatar. I'm having a difficult time looking away... I think it's something in the way she's staring off into the distance...
|
|
@Kakafika,
Jessica has much more knowlege in this field than I, but I agree on the resources thing. Short of allowing people to upload their own outfits, they have to set a limit. Which means not everyone will be satisfied.
And if the final product allowed people to form their own outfits, we'd have to worry about Pimp-daddy Destro being encountered.
Actually the whole Destro thing would be pretty awesome. Didn't he have like some fur trim too? That would be a great PK look =)
Though I will say letting people upload their own things could be rough, I'm not sure exactly how it worked out in APB but my old roommate used to show me some of the things people designed on their vans.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
We can use the iconic cleric of Saerenrae (I wish I wasn't forgetting her name right now).
WAR's artwork and the Reaper miniature are done in a VERY unisex way. Her armor is by no means "comic book babe". Which is nice, because that model is fantastic and if you paint on facial hair it passes as a great male cleric mini.
That style is what I mean when I'm talking about having "Heroic" disabled. Her chain shirt falls flatly down and the robes are loose.
If she had "heroic" enabled because the player wanted more alluring lines, maybe that same outfit would accentuate her curves a bit more and have more of the comic book flair.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I suppose we have the potential for some micro transactions, recipes for reskins of armor that crafters can purchase to give their armor a distinctive look, others could be loot items. After all, if we're talking extra resources to make it, micro transactions would cover it ;)
As to the whole inappropriate statement thing, I think it is important just to be mindful that there are groups out there that have to deal with those kinds of loaded jokes every day, whether it's racial, gender or orientation, or disability. On the Internet, you may come across one of these people, in fact, it's guaranteed.
It's not a freedom of speech issue, it's a "appropriate conduct in the context" issue. We all slip up sometimes, it happens, but conscious awareness of the issue is all it takes to stop a joke becoming an unpleasant situation.
It's like making a dead grandma joke and discovering the person you told it to just lost their grandmother. It makes an awkward situation. The Australian Prime Minister recently trampled all over the opposition leader for misogyny. He's doesnt actually hate women, but he does use loaded wording, with very uncomfortable results for him.
I don't think anyone here intends to be offending anyone else or attacking them, it's about raising awareness of what you're saying. I think it's all been said though.
|
Production Specialist
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nevertheless, withdrawn support from the Kickstarter for PFO. Hopefully things get funded, as I'm keeping $100 in the pot for the print products *grin*. However, I've not much intention of playing a game where I have to walk on eggshells. I just feel that real life is enough of that, and the last thing I'd want is to get in trouble (suspended, banned) in a game I'd slapped $100 on the year before.
No one has censored or deleted your original post, not threatened to ban you. We know it was a joke, and you thought it was funny. Other people didn't think it was funny, and so we said as much. The goal here isn't to silence. The goal is to educate.
Men often complain that women don't state things plainly or make their intentions clear. In this case, we opted to. That's all.
|
Production Specialist
|
Personally, I think the extra textures for armor is a really cool idea with the ability to click an option to 'switch' the display. My only concern is the resources involved... maybe go with the 'traditional' look of armor for MMOs to start. Then again, by not doing so, GW might get some extra attention for breaking the norm. I'm undecided.
As an artist and a visually-oriented person, I support this idea 110% (again: artist, not mathematician). I abused the heck out of Neverwinter Nights' dye system. Same with Fable. It's nice being able to tweak your appearance and get it just right.
Of course, having taken 3D modeling and texturing classes, I totally understand why this would be a huge pain in the butt.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
To be clear, the goal was to silence offensive speech. There is nothing wrong with that. If Paizo's policy is to curb offensive language, then one admin post stating as much would have sufficed.
Instead, several Paizo employees came in to 'educate' Aaron.
It is difficult if not impossible to have a discussion about free speech in a private space where free speech is restricted. It especially difficult if one aspect of the discussion is in fact part of the entity that owns the private space.
If you are in a position of power, you are not 'on the floor,' you are standing on your pulpit. That is in bad form.
This thread is a wreck. A joke/remark/language that is against Paizo policy can be easily responded to by an admin post with a link to the rules/creed/goals of Paizo. Instead, this has thread has been derailed for half a page. I empathize with those that were offended, those who where simply looking out for those that might be offended, and those that have to put up with offensive comments and language every day. I empathize with Aaron. I am disappointed that this turned into a dogpile on him for one comment in bad taste; he now knows the rules.
Can we please get back to the reason we are here (not education): PFO?
|
Production Specialist
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Do you think they should narrow racial minorities body features by nation or origin, or should we be able to make pale Mwgambians?
Not being over at Goblinworks, I don't know if we're going to make nation of origin a part of character creation, but I certainly believe in a wide range of skin tones and features for as many ethnicity and backgrounds as we can manage. Not every southeast Asian person has the same skin tone or facial features, after all.
I'm always happy when I can make a character in a game and match the bizarre skin tone I get from a combined Scottish, Native American, and Irish background. I imagine my black friends feel the same way.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Personally, I think the extra textures for armor is a really cool idea with the ability to click an option to 'switch' the display. My only concern is the resources involved... maybe go with the 'traditional' look of armor for MMOs to start. Then again, by not doing so, GW might get some extra attention for breaking the norm. I'm undecided.As an artist and a visually-oriented person, I support this idea 110% (again: artist, not mathematician). I abused the heck out of Neverwinter Nights' dye system. Same with Fable. It's nice being able to tweak your appearance and get it just right.
Of course, having taken 3D modeling and texturing classes, I totally understand why this would be a huge pain in the butt.
It's part of the reason I'm enjoying Guild Wars 2 right now. Dyes!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Nevertheless, withdrawn support from the Kickstarter for PFO. Hopefully things get funded, as I'm keeping $100 in the pot for the print products *grin*. However, I've not much intention of playing a game where I have to walk on eggshells. I just feel that real life is enough of that, and the last thing I'd want is to get in trouble (suspended, banned) in a game I'd slapped $100 on the year before.
I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be. Simply being aware of the issue, and being willing to question your habits and motives can help a lot. The early cultural influences on a world/community end up influencing the way it continues to a great degree. I think it's in all of our best interests to make it as inclusive as possible. That said, if you don't think you're up to challenging yourself in that way... well, it's regrettable.
We can use the iconic cleric of Saerenrae (I wish I wasn't forgetting her name right now).
WAR's artwork and the Reaper miniature are done in a VERY unisex way. Her armor is by no means "comic book babe". Which is nice, because that model is fantastic and if you paint on facial hair it passes as a great male cleric mini.
That style is what I mean when I'm talking about having "Heroic" disabled. Her chain shirt falls flatly down and the robes are loose.
If she had "heroic" enabled because the player wanted more alluring lines, maybe that same outfit would accentuate her curves a bit more and have more of the comic book flair.
The cleric of Saerenrae is Kyra, and I think the term you're looking for in regards to overtly-sexualized fantasy art is 'cheesecake' (or perhaps 'beefcake' for males).
Cheesecake (flavour) that's from the 3.5 Private Sanctuary podcast PS0196. They cover Pathfinder too, since PFRPG is basically the inheritor of the 3.5 legacy.
Round Table 4: Sexuality, Identity, and Ladygamers is also on-topic for sex, sexuality, and gender identity. It's from "The Walking Eye" gaming podcast and while it's centred on tabletop games, the perspectives apply.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd like to see certain hairstyles/skin tones/faces/body types associated with specific subraces, but not in an exclusive manner.
They don't have to (and probably shouldn't) correspond to Earthly equivalents, but I'm not sure what the alternative is.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
It would be nice to see in the future cultural flavours, perhaps using regional materials and recipes from different areas, so you end up with a local flavours from the local resources, and that translating into clothing and hairstyles too.
Also it would make for some interesting status symbols, like a marble town hall in a region far from any marble.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But a statement that women should be suspended for choosing less scanty costumes, even uttered in jest, implies that I only have a place in the game if I am providing you with visual gratification. I don't play games to provide you with gratification. I play them to play games. That's my personal objection.
These kinds of statements really do not help your cause. As a leader I have always taken a stance of promotion via qualification and dedication and have ended up working with a very diverse group of individuals because of such. I was raised in a town where racism was simply not accepted and I believe every woman has the right to choose her own path in life as much as a man.
Last night when I wrote the rules to govern "The Empyrean" intolerance was clearly stated as something we did not allow.
Here's my problem with what you just did. He made a SARCASTIC statement directed at no one in specific. It was a bit off color, and probably shouldn't have been made. You basically just ripped him a new ***hole and made it out that he's a complete womanizer.
You don't think you could put your message across any more tactfully? And before you tell me about how these kinds of behaviors are hurtful and need to be put down hard let me pose a question to you, everyone backing you up, and everyone who favorited your comment:
Were someone to jokingly refer to men as "the weaker sex" or make a disparaging remark about "MANtality" would you have reacted with the same level of passion?
If so then please proceed with the ***hole ripping. (Or not because they really aren't helping anything.)If not then you need to stop, take a moment, and consider the root of your motivations.
I'm not trying to be offensive here but I feel the tone you have taken puts people on the defensive rather than getting your point across. Tone your passion down a bit and make sure you are being fair to everyone. That is what the fight against intolerance is all about. Reason and fairness.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry, but this is getting ridiculous.
+1
I'm sure he finds someone inferring that he stated females play this game to gratify his desire to stare at them a quite offensive statement.
I've made sarcastic statements about conquering the world and exterminating all humanity. It was a joke about the game Risk, not something I actually desired to do.
Again. I might feel differently if I felt anyone here would actually address sexism from a woman to a man because it does exist. The examples I gave were not just theoretical.
I suppose I'm a little bit disenchanted with a culture where TV adds can openly state "Anything boys can girls can do better" and women openly disparage all men when talking about their husbands. But a fairly tame joke gets met with such a severe reaction. Respect should be a two way street and I am tired of the hypocrisy.
All men with a proper upbringing are taught to respect women. Most of us are too stoic to admit it but its hurtful when women don't do the same for us.
|
Production Specialist
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Andius,
There was absolutely no ripping of a&%&**!s. Nobody accused him of being a womanizer or any other insult. We said he made a sexist comment, not that he was a sexist person. Your comment makes two women (and a few men) voicing their opinion about a sexist joke sound like we assaulted him and banished him from the website. These kinds of extreme reactions to women standing up for themselves are part of the reason many women feel uncomfortable voicing their opinions, or even participating in geek activities. We protested, and offered explanations for why. One of us was accused of being overly sensitive for not wanting the website to become the kind of place where guys tell sexist jokes and metaphorically elbow one another knowingly. Both of us were told to stop derailing the thread about diversity with open discussions of sexism.
I'm not spelling any of this out to call out you, or anyone in particular, but to demonstrate that it is very frustrating to be a woman.
Yes, we do understand and acknowledge that sometimes women say mean things about men as well, but that was not the focus of his joke. We try to call out those jokes to, when we see them. But not every conversation is about how hard it is to be a man in a hobby controlled largely by men and populated largely by men.
And finally, don't approach any argument about social justice by attacking another person's tone of "voice". It's an approach that implies a given person should behave a certain way before you consider them human enough to be taken seriously, especially when a more powerful or socially-accepted individual is speaking to an outsider or minority. It's dismissive and doesn't foster healthy discussion
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yes, we do understand and acknowledge that sometimes women say mean things about men as well, but that was not the focus of his joke. We try to call out those jokes to, when we see them.
Please forgive my skepticism, but I can't recall ever seeing that happen once. Not in real life, not in a game, not anywhere. I've seen racial minorities take up for whites who are the targets of racism on rare occasions but never a woman for a man when it comes to sexism. I'm sure it happens but it can't be all that common.
If I don't point out here and now then where and when? I'm not going to delve too far into my personal life but I will say I have reasons to be very sensitive about this topic.
Counting the favorites to each post on this page you don't seem too under-represented to me.
|
|
Well one could point out v'rels comment about this being little boy humor for starters. I didn't see any outrage from Jessica nor Crystal on that. In fact, I see one person liked it so after I post this ill check who that was. Oh, and not to mention the not so subtle pummeling that I should get over the comment.
Oh and he makes note that not everything is a boob joke. You are correct sir, but the context I was joking of was about "boob armor". Again, not my term.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Folks, please take a deep breath, review the posting guidelines (*points to link below*), and treat each other with respect when posting. Thanks!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
You won't change any minds by speaking down from your pulpit. As an employee of the company that owns the space in which we are interacting socially, you are in a position of power.
I am very disappointed with how this situation was handled. It was irresponsible.
If it were Aarons peers making the same criticisms, I would only be disappointed that the thread was derailed :P
@Aarontendo I really hope you reconsider joining us in PFO. This not the norm of behavior here.
Normally, Ross would come in here, make a post warning Aaron that he has broken Paizo forum rules/etiquette, and would monitor the situation. If inappropriate behavior continued, he would take further action and delete offending posts. It seems he came in a little late, and others Paizo employees believed that the situation hadn't been handled adequately.
These sorts of incidents don't happen often (we really do have a great community), but I have seen it happen several times over the past year. Forgive them this time, we're all human and make mistakes, as you are now all too aware ;)
|
|
Ah ok so it was Jessica who endorsed the message. Cool. Keep up the good fight against sexism and oppression, after all the violence you endorsed with your favoriting they message are such clear tools to do so.
Now truth me told I'm not offended I don't let things get to me generally. But I'm not gonna sit back and let someone think I like being patrinized and need "educating". As someone who works in education I did laugh about that though. And judging from another poster I'm not the only one who clued in on the "educating" statement.
Look, I get it. Gaming is a rough field to be in for a woman. Nevertheless, not everything us a crusade. Truth is I've seen two paizo people post in this thread, both of which I've never seen post on the PFO forums. I may be wrong there, but if that is indeed the case it looks like you care more about grinding axes and a crusade and less about the game. If you're just another poster fair enough, but it strikes me as a bit strange as employees to do so. Just the way I see things anyways :)