Important Caveat, the game in question is a first level only game. Characters will not advance from level one until many many sessions in at the earliest.
I'm considering making a bard, I link my GM to the dancing dervish going "Hey, this is cool, should I make this variant of a bard?"
and he says. "A bard that only boosts himself and nobody else? And retains spellcasting, that's OP. No, core only!"
I realize the GM is the ultimate authority, I just felt like I should probably get a second opinion, since I think the dervish is actually something of a step backwards from regular bard in terms of raw power.
Uh... what? That reasoning makes no sense. Why would a Bard be more powerful by not boosting others?
Anyway, no, the archetype is not overpowered. It is actually rather crumby when compared to the very similar Dawnflower Dervish. At level 1 it is going to be strictly worse than a normal Bard, as the only difference with the Dance is that the Inspire Courage only works for the Bard, and you can't even make use of Scimitar proficiency to get Dervish Dance yet.
Seriously, either your GM wildly misinterpreted something or is plain nuts. Just play a regular Bard and use Dance for your performances. It will be basically the same at level 1, but you can help your friends too.
From the sounds of it, you missed something in your all bolded Caveat that would answer your own question: "This is a core rulebook game"...
Ok, snarky comments aside, I agree that a bard archetype that gives up inspire courage is less powerful and likely not a concern for balance. That aside, as a GM, I have problems with some of the archetypes *cough* master summoner *cough* so I can sympathize with him on that. If the GM says it's a no go, then it's a no go. Plain & Simple.
The overpowered nature (in my opinion) primarily comes from this:
Starting a battle dance is a move action...
Dervishes get to do move-action performance 6 levels earlier (and swift-action 3 levels earlier) than regular bards. This makes them *personally* much stronger, since they don't need to use up a standard action to buff themselves for attack.
Overall it's a drop in party power, but a definite increase for the bard itself.
You haven't met the right bards. When a bard gives the entire party +10 on... everything, it's quite sick (epic levels at that point, to be fair).
The overpowered nature (in my opinion) primarily comes from this:
Starting a battle dance is a move action...Dervishes get to do move-action performance 6 levels earlier (and swift-action 3 levels earlier) than regular bards. This makes them *personally* much stronger, since they don't need to use up a standard action to buff themselves for attack.
Overall it's a drop in party power, but a definite increase for the bard itself.
I can see both sides of it. Yes, a Dervish Dancer can start performances as a move action, and eventually a swift action. But does this break anything in a sustained level 1 campaign? I'd argue not.
Yes, he's going to be slightly more combat adept. But still not as survivable as the fighter or barbarian. Yes, he retains spellcasting. But still not as broad a spell list as Wizard or even Sorceror. Yes, he retains the utility of a rogue. But still doesn't have sneak attack.
At the end of the day, the only difference is trading the ability to buff the entire party slower for the ability to buff himself faster.
He's still a jack-of-all-trades, master of none. As a Bard should be.
I don't know if I'd call it over powered, but I recently played a high level game where I played a 15th level Dervish Dancer 3rd level Monk (master of many styles) and was the scariest character in the game which consisted of a Wizard, Monk, and Cleric. The most uttered phrase around the table was "That's a bard?"
I don't know if I'd call it over powered, but I recently played a high level game where I played a 15th level Dervish Dancer 3rd level Monk (master of many styles) and was the scariest character in the game which consisted of a Wizard, Monk, and Cleric. The most uttered phrase around the table was "That's a bard?"
Yep. 15th is the magical level of Diminishing Returns on that archetype. Multiclassing it with ANYTHING melee is scary. I have a 14th Dervish Dancer/2nd Fighter who's pretty frightening in combat options.
But, at level 1? It won't be a balance issue. Trust me.
I know 3.5 bard can be scary as hell - +4 to hit/dam at low level - makes a huge diffence...
Not sure how powerfull bards can become in pathfinder - but don't underestimate a well build, well played bard...
Playing with unexperienced GM's can be pain:S
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Keep in mind that Dervish Dancer doesn't lose Bardic Performance (Ex). Battle Dance doesn't even modify it. You still have Bardic Performance and, barring performances that are specifically listed as being "swapped out" by the archetype, you can use any available Bardic Perfromance under the rules.
I... wait... *looks it up*. Never caught that before. Someone needs to tell the herolab people. That will have some interesting effects on my dervish dancer/urban barbar/alchemist.
I... wait... *looks it up*. Never caught that before. Someone needs to tell the herolab people. That will have some interesting effects on my dervish dancer/urban barbar/alchemist.Keep in mind that Dervish Dancer doesn't lose Bardic Performance (Ex). Battle Dance doesn't even modify it. You still have Bardic Performance and, barring performances that are specifically listed as being "swapped out" by the archetype, you can use any available Bardic Perfromance under the rules.
It's not so. It is very clear from context that Battle Dance is intended to replace Bardic Performance. The fact that it doesn't specifically say it is simply a sign of being from the first book with archetypes in them, and a rather complex entry.
It's also been addressed peripherally.
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You haven't met the right bards. When a bard gives the entire party +10 on... everything, it's quite sick (epic levels at that point, to be fair).
You don't need to be epic to get that high of a bonus. I was in an exalted deeds campaign. The bard took Words of Creation asap, we never missed with the exception of natty 1s.
You haven't met the right bards. When a bard gives the entire party +10 on... everything, it's quite sick (epic levels at that point, to be fair).You don't need to be epic to get that high of a bonus. I was in an exalted deeds campaign. The bard took Words of Creation asap, we never missed with the exception of natty 1s.
You do in a Core-only campaign. There was a crazy number of splat books with ways of "making bards better" that never referenced each other for balance.
According to James Jacobs, the man who wrote the archetype, Dawnflower Dervishes still have bardic performance, but specific sub-abilities are altered or swapped out.
Wonderful. And very different class ability language from the Dervish Dancer.
Dervish Dancer certainly isn't broken. Now you could make a case that Dervish of Dawn (former Dawnflower Dervish) is, but certainly not the basic Dervish Dancer, though even then I'm not so sure.
Any example of a bard that loses their inspire courage ability without getting a party buffing equivalent is really giving up a lot. People don't attach enough value to force multiplication.
Since when does intent trump RAW?
Since playing the game as intended, if you know what the intent was, makes a whole lot more sense than continuing to use mistaken rules that you have been informed were not meant to be used as they might be.