Cave Druid, wildshape Ooze and acid damage

[Phasics]

Quick question does the Ooze form you can take get the acid damage in the attack profile ?

or is it just ooze in name only benefiting only from blindsense, tremorsense, grab and constrict ?

[Tar-Tar]

It looks like wouldn't get the acid damage. If you compare to elemental body, that spell specifically mentions getting the burn ability. Acid damage is not something mentioned in the beast shape spells, so I think you would only get the other benefits of being an ooze. Not sure how much sense it makes to turn into a giant glob of acid and then do normal damage, but this is pathfinder; things don't have to make sense.

[Horselord]

To be really harsh, by RAW the ooze form has no acid attack as it is a special ability (Acid) that isn't listed in Beast Shape IV. It is also completely blind, and not really combat effective. There needs to be errata for this. Oozes all have blindsight as their only sense, and as it is not listed, technically when in ooze form you have no senses beyond touch.

The reason is Beast Shape IV only lets you gain abilities listed, i.e., burrow 60 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 120 feet (good maneuverability), swim 120 feet, blindsense 60 feet, darkvision 90 feet, low-light vision, scent, tremorsense 60 feet, breath weapon, constrict, ferocity, grab, jet, poison, pounce, rake, rend, roar, spikes, trample, trip, and web.

If the creature has immunity or resistance to any elements, you gain resistance 20 to those elements. If the creature has vulnerability to an element, you gain that vulnerability.

[Tar-Tar]

Perhaps RAI is that you adjust your stats as though using beast shape, but gain the abilities of the Ooze (including acid, blindsight, and whatever else an ooze has). Just throwing out guesses as to how this version of wild shape is supposed to be worth the archetype.

[Phasics]

Tar-Tar wrote:

Perhaps RAI is that you adjust your stats as though using beast shape, but gain the abilities of the Ooze (including acid, blindsight, and whatever else an ooze has). Just throwing out guesses as to how this version of wild shape is supposed to be worth the archetype.

maybe but that's a big RAI leap

RAW you only get what's listed in Beast Shape IV, and what's worse the ability says you lose the natural armor bonus from the spell.

I honestly don't understand what they were trying to do here. It's almost like casting baelful polymorph on yourself

[Vanod]

The polymorph section of the core rulebook says that if the new form has an ability, and the polymorph spell grants a lesser ability of the same type, you get the lesser version.

A stricter interpretation might hold that it can only be numerically lesser — ie, the new form has blindsense 120' and Beast Shape IV only grants 60', so you get 60'. However, since blindsight is explicitly described as a superior version of blindsense, it's completely reasonable to grant blindsense to a polymorph form that normally has blindsight.

Also, if you're worried about underwhelming damage while in ooze form... just turn into a carnivorous crystal (Bestiary 3) whose natural weapon is a 7d8 slam attack with a critical threat range of 18-20.

[Taenia]

You don't get the crit range or deal P/S damage with that slam but you do get the base damage dice.

[prototype00]

Strictest RAW, an ooze shaped Druid loses the "blind" trait and thus is affected by gaze attacks and other effects based on sight. Presumably they see as well as Druids wild shaped into an elemental who also don't have eyes.

Prototype00

[MurphysParadox]

Clever interpretation, prototype00

[DeZrog]

Tar-Tar wrote:

It looks like wouldn't get the acid damage. If you compare to elemental body, that spell specifically mentions getting the burn ability. Acid damage is not something mentioned in the beast shape spells, so I think you would only get the other benefits of being an ooze. Not sure how much sense it makes to turn into a giant glob of acid and then do normal damage, but this is pathfinder; things don't have to make sense.

But it DOES say that you gain the natural attacks, so if those acid attacks aren't listed as "Ex" or "su", wouldn't you get them?

For example, on a Galvo (magical beast)?

Whereas a Black Pudding DOES show the ability as (Ex)...

I'm asking because I couldn't find this answer anywhere...

[Name Violation]

DeZrog wrote:

Tar-Tar wrote:

It looks like wouldn't get the acid damage. If you compare to elemental body, that spell specifically mentions getting the burn ability. Acid damage is not something mentioned in the beast shape spells, so I think you would only get the other benefits of being an ooze. Not sure how much sense it makes to turn into a giant glob of acid and then do normal damage, but this is pathfinder; things don't have to make sense.

But it DOES say that you gain the natural attacks, so if those acid attacks aren't listed as "Ex" or "su", wouldn't you get them?

For example, on a Galvo (magical beast)?

Whereas a Black Pudding DOES show the ability as (Ex)...

I'm asking because I couldn't find this answer anywhere...

Only 11 years late to the conversation...

[Azothath]

back in 2012 online data was hard to come by. Just reading the "new" PF1 rules would have been helpful... The misconceptions in the posts at the time shows the hard conceptual and rule mechanic transition polymorphs got from DnD3.5. At the time I had to go back and read them, then declared, "sh--! there goes polymorphing!" The Orig Poster suspects that's the case which is why the last line along the spell's granted abilities...

Druid arch Cave Druid and down to Wildshape(Su) which references oozes via Beast Shape 3 & 4 (treat ooze as if mag beast w/o natl armr) Ooze form gains imm poi, snk atk(precision dmg), crit hits (a gain from the std spells).
polymorph subschool which mentions natural attacks but not the riders or abilities like burn.

sadly Bst Shp 3 & 4 don't mention; blind, Imm (sleep, paralysis, polymorh(covered under polymorph rules), stunning), ability to deal acid damage, lack of weapon or armor proficiency. So a caster just gets the natural attack base (from polymorph) without any [energy] damage.
I'll note that MIBS means all the magic item body slots are going to be absorbed in the ooze form polymorph (treating ooze as mag beast).
since a human caster can see/hear/taste/touch/smell and they are not (Ex) or (Su) they will be able to sense the environment normally. Darkvsn and such (Ex)/(Su) enhancements will be lost.

comment
There was intense desire by a vocal set of players to get better ooze abilities and spells that didn't show up until late in the Game. Ofcourse is was seriously nerfed which let the expectations down a bit...
in general being an ooze means some squishy movement, couple of immunities, and a slam or two... and a loss of a lot of other critical stuff. So as you ooze into death you can moan, "oooooooooze!"

sadly Cave Druid was early (APG c08/2010) and Ooze Form spells came out later with Ult Wild c11/2017. Your Home Game GM should substitute these spells in for the Cave Druid archetype.