Fencing Strike (Combat)
Instead of overwhelming your opponent with powerful strikes. You deftly slide inside their guard to precisely strike at your opponents weak spot.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, BAB +5, Weapon Finesse
Benefit: Choose a single one-handed weapon from the weapon finesse feat that is appropriately sized for your character. When wielding that weapon and not carrying a medium or heavy load, carrying a shield, and not wearing medium or heavy armor you may use your Dex modifier in place of your Str modifier on melee damage rolls.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of finessable weapon.
This feat should be allowed to be taken multiple times, since you're restricted to a single weapon gaining the benefit of it.
Or just allow it to apply to all the weapons that Weapon Finesse applies to.
This feat should be allowed to be taken multiple times, since you're restricted to a single weapon gaining the benefit of it.
Or just allow it to apply to all the weapons that Weapon Finesse applies to.
Done. it can now be taken multiple times.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, BAB +6, Weapon Finesse
Benefit: As a standard action you can make a single attack with a weapon that you can apply the Weapon Finesse feat to, and add your dexterity modifier to the damage roll in place of your strength modifier. You cannot use this feat if you are encumbered from armor or weight carried.
Maybe add Weapon Focus as another prereq.Fencing Strike (Combat)
Instead of overwhelming your opponent with powerful strikes. You deftly slide inside their guard to precisely strike at your opponents weak spot.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, BAB +5, Weapon Finesse
Benefit: Choose a single one-handed weapon from the weapon finesse feat that is appropriately sized for your character. When wielding that weapon and not carrying a medium or heavy load, carrying a shield, and not wearing medium or heavy armor you may use your Dex modifier in place of your Str modifier on melee damage rolls.
After thinking about it I am not sure how it would effect much either way. For example, a Rogue with the feat as is could take weapon Finesse at level 1 and grab this around level 7. With weapon focus they simple take weapon finesse at 1, weapon focus at 3, and then this at level 7. A fighter would still have the feats to grab this at level 5 either way, as weapon focus would be something a fighter grabs early anyway. So, I could add it in or keep it out either way (just depends on what everyone else thinks is worth it), but it doesn't really change the level at which the feat is gained.
You're adding a ton of not-restrictions-disguised-as-restrictions to the feat. People using it generally wouldn't be in medium or heavier anyways. I suppose your intent here was to make it so you can't dump strength, but it still lets you get by just fine without putting or taking away any points from strength. With just items they'd be getting anyways overcoming that, this isn't a huge restriction to all but people who use 7 Strength.
I question why it has +5 BAB as a requirement. This has the strange effect of the people most likely to use it getting a huge damage boost later in the game.
The restriction on choosing only one weapon is interesting. But it's no different from any other feat that gives dex to damage. The person taking it probably won't be using a different weapon anyways and will just keep using that one type of weapon. The one thing it does do is force people to choose between Rapier and an off-hand or two shortswords. Add that to the fact that it can only be taken once, and it's a bit better than most such options. Which I guess is nice, but that was never really the issue.
The flavor still doesn't make sense. If you're deftly striking their weakspots, then this should be +Intelligence to damage and require knowledge checks, not just +Dex. Exploiting the weakspots isn't something you do without good knowledge of what the weakspots are. Of course, every +Dex to Damage thing I've seen fails this. "Hitting more accurately" only counts if you know where to hit in the first place, and that's intelligence based. Hitting the left pinky more accurately isn't going to do shit compared to hitting the eye.
I still haven't seen any Dex to Damage ability that I've thought was balanced. But this is a bit better than most due solely to the rapier issue.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, BAB +6, Weapon Finesse
Benefit: As a standard action you can make a single attack with a weapon that you can apply the Weapon Finesse feat to, and add your dexterity modifier to the damage roll in place of your strength modifier. You cannot use this feat if you are encumbered from armor or weight carried.
That is a much more succinctly worded version to be sure, but would the carrying of a shield still be a problem with having a higher ac? According to weapon finesse you apply the shields armor check penalty to attack rolls which is something that can be easily overcome by a fighter taking weapon focus and grater weapon focus while applying mithral to a shield. Is that something you are concerned with or is it just me making a big deal out of nothing?
Among the many changes we made to combat feats, one was that we got rid of the Weapon Finesse feat and instead made 'Finesse' a weapon trait granted to light weapons, rapiers, whips, etc. as well as ranged weapons like bows and crossbows. Weapons with that trait use DEX for both attack bonus and damage instead of Strength. Its worked out very, very well for us.
You're adding a ton of not-restrictions-disguised-as-restrictions to the feat. People using it generally wouldn't be in medium or heavier anyways. I suppose your intent here was to make it so you can't dump strength, but it still lets you get by just fine without putting or taking away any points from strength. With just items they'd be getting anyways overcoming that, this isn't a huge restriction to all but people who use 7 Strength.
I question why it has +5 BAB as a requirement. This has the strange effect of the people most likely to use it getting a huge damage boost later in the game.
The restriction on choosing only one weapon is interesting. But it's no different from any other feat that gives dex to damage. The person taking it probably won't be using a different weapon anyways and will just keep using that one type of weapon. The one thing it does do is force people to choose between Rapier and an off-hand or two shortswords. Add that to the fact that it can only be taken once, and it's a bit better than most such options. Which I guess is nice, but that was never really the issue.
The flavor still doesn't make sense. If you're deftly striking their weakspots, then this should be +Intelligence to damage and require knowledge checks, not just +Dex. Exploiting the weakspots isn't something you do without good knowledge of what the weakspots are. Of course, every +Dex to Damage thing I've seen fails this. "Hitting more accurately" only counts if you know where to hit in the first place, and that's intelligence based. Hitting the left pinky more accurately isn't going to do s@&+ compared to hitting the eye.
I still haven't seen any Dex to Damage ability that I've thought was balanced. But this is a bit better than most due solely to the rapier issue.
ok I'll see if I can address your issues.
1) The intent was to prevent people from mega dumping strength, the idea from what I have gathered with such builds was people where worried about players dropping their strength down to a 5 with a halfling or Gnome. Basically I wanted enough of a restriction to keep them out of that territory, which based on your description was accomplished by keeping them in the 8-10 Strength range. I could up the Dex requirement more so as to put more stress on a min maxed build, but at level 5 to 7 a character could easily have a 17 or 18 Dex without heavy min-max so I am not sure what else to do to accomplish that.
2) The +5 base attack bonus was from looking at the Gunslingers Gun training ability that kicks in at 5th level. Basically, I thought that if the Gunslinger getting Dex to Damage with a range touch attack on a full base attack bonus class with minimal draw backs was balanced, I figured allowing a melee character to add Dex to damage at around the same time wouldn't be that bad. However, I may have overestimated the differences between a defining class feature and the effects of a feat.
3) It was designed to try and bring in a fencer style using light armor and no shield while still being able to expand somewhat into other areas, such as two weapon fighting short swords you mentioned earlier. So, you could with this feat to build a standard fencer with nothing in his off hand, a Florentine style fencer with two-weapon fighting, two weapon defense, and a dagger/parrying dagger/shield breaker in the off hand, or someone two-weapon fighting with short swords.
4) I am not too proud to admit that I am not terribly good when trying to come up with interesting flavor. I'll go back and see if I can write something that more evokes a fencer feel, but I make no promises as to the quality. (Also, I am thinking I may also recycle the fluff for creating an intelligence to melee damage feat using what you described at a later date.)
Any suggestions on how to try and make this more palatable would be greatly appreciate from you or others on the boards. :)
This is strictly better than dervish dancing.
Due to it being a more general feat I am not surprised that it would be strictly better than dervish dancing. What would you suggest adding in addition to the current limitations in order to create something more balanced? Would adding in a requirement of training in acrobatics make it more palatable as it would take it out of the hands of a classes like fighter and magus and be just a rogue thing? Or if those classes want the feat they would have to grab additional feats to meet the prerequisite?
Although, I would need help in trying to create rational sounding fluff for a back-flipping fencer feat...
Oh, I can definitely see where you're coming from with the gunslinger parallel.
The reason it works well for them is the attacks issue gunslingers face. Aside from one or two builds, it's actually pretty hard to get multiple attacks per round, and it's generally dangerous to do so. If you're full BAB and level 10 and even with rapid reload you're only doing 1 attack, the class could use a bump in damage to make those few attacks work.
Fencing Strike (Combat)
Prerequisite: Dex 15, BAB +5, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Training in Acrobatics
Benefit: Choose a single one-handed weapon from the weapon finesse feat that is appropriately sized for your character. When wielding that weapon and not carrying a medium or heavy load, carrying a shield, and not wearing medium or heavy armor you may use your Dex modifier in place of your Str modifier on melee damage rolls.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of finessable weapon.
Ok I left out the fluff and added in more prerequisites to the feat. Need help in explaining an acrobatic fencer...
edit: I am thinking that prerequisite line is looking a little long. Maybe BAB +5, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and Training in Acrobatics? Does the BAB make a big difference with the placement of the feats overall and the built in requirements? Dropping the BAB would make it earlier for rogues and make others like magus and fighter have to wait until after the rogue would get it, but I believe it would probably make the feat applicable too early overall. Any suggestions? I'm thinking the fluff may have something to do with special training from a group of traveling Varisian acrobats using this as a specially developed combat style to protect themselves when traveling from town to town.
Ah fencing feat would be great.
As fencing it should then be restricted to light and one handed piercing or slashing weapons. (I have been thinking if some 2-handed stuff could be used with weapon finesse, especially some "lighter" polearm and spear stuff though)
The damage could be based off DEX or could be precision damage, meaning additional damage dice or a flat bonus. The problem would be though that precision damage isn´t multiplied on a critical hit, while i think some finesse weapons make excellent critical hits, that is why their threat zone is higher.
What Wiggz said is a very nice idea too, just get rid of the feat at all and tie it to the weapons, damage included.
But i would add something: Similar restrictions on the damage like on sneak attack, creatures immune to critical hits are resistant against that kind of damage, they only get the normal weapon damage.
That´s good for the flavor and fits DEX based kind of "precision" damage very well and also diesn´t devaluate STR builds in the game that much.
diesn´t devaluate STR builds in the game that much.
Well, other than making similar builds that use strength just about useless, with their only real advantage gone.
diesn´t devaluate STR builds in the game that much.Well, other than making similar builds that use strength just about useless, with their only real advantage gone.
Does the Prereq of having training in acrobatics change that at all? As it means that it would be easier for a fighter or magus to go strength so as to not have to worry about taking skill training in acrobatics as well, or am I simply building in more prerequisites that only look like prerequisites without really changing much at all?
What Wiggz said is a very nice idea too, just get rid of the feat at all and tie it to the weapons, damage included.
But i would add something: Similar restrictions on the damage like on sneak attack, creatures immune to critical hits are resistant against that kind of damage, they only get the normal weapon damage.That´s good for the flavor and fits DEX based kind of "precision" damage very well and also diesn´t devaluate STR builds in the game that much.
We've found that there is plenty of balance - of course you need to keep in mind two things, the first is that this is one of about 20 feats we've added, modified or done away with and the second is that for us the relentless pursuit of perfect balance isn't exactly our chief priority.
Dex builds use weapons with the finesse feat and gain the benefit to attack, damage and AC from Dexterity.
Strength builds use weapons as normal and usually benefit from a 50% damage bonus that the Dex builds do not from two-handed weapons and a much greater selection of Reach options. They of course also benefit from Dex bonuses to AC.
Acrobatic Strike (Combat)
Created by troupe of Varisian acrobats this style of fencing emphasizes balance and allows the user to turn speed into power when using a light blade.
Prerequisite: BAB +5, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and Training in Acrobatics
Benefit: Choose a single one-handed weapon from the weapon finesse feat that is appropriately sized for your character. When wielding that weapon and not carrying a medium or heavy load, carrying a shield, and not wearing medium or heavy armor you may use your Dex modifier in place of your Str modifier on melee damage rolls.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of finessable weapon.
I just let it in as preciosn damage with weapon finesse as a prerequisite. YOu have to remeber that it only applies to light weapons so at level one as a human fighter youare really only doing 1d6+4 or 1d8+4 with an exotic weapon at the cost of 2-3 feats. Power attack+furious focus is 2d6+8 damage with 18 strength. The main advantage to dex to damage is less MAD and dex has other non combat related stuff.
That is a much more succinctly worded version to be sure, but would the carrying of a shield still be a problem with having a higher ac? According to weapon finesse you apply the shields armor check penalty to attack rolls which is something that can be easily overcome by a fighter taking weapon focus and grater weapon focus while applying mithral to a shield. Is that something you are concerned with or is it just me making a big deal out of nothing?Prerequisite: Dex 13, BAB +6, Weapon Finesse
Benefit: As a standard action you can make a single attack with a weapon that you can apply the Weapon Finesse feat to, and add your dexterity modifier to the damage roll in place of your strength modifier. You cannot use this feat if you are encumbered from armor or weight carried.
So we're clear I understand that mine is very different from yours. I don'r eally care about the shield part. I added the encumbrance part on your behalf though. If ACP is a part of weapon finesse, I welcome shields. I would even eliminate the encumbrance from armor. I changed the BAB to +6, the point in time when a warrior gains additional attacks. Making it a standard actions opens up new doors. It eliminates using two weapons and making a half dozen attacks or more in a round. I also dislike the game aspect of complete dependance on a single weapon, so I removed that.
Anyhow, thats my brainstorming. Hope it helps. Have fun!
I don't understand the high BAB requirement. Why not just adapt Dervish Dance to be "select one weapon"? It's doing the exact same thing, except that your feat allowed for dual wielding (which introduces new issues). Your feat also allows for 2-handing for bonus damage, which is counter intuitive.
Adapt Dervish Dance to fit your game (any 1 weapon, 2 ranks in acrobatics) and you're done.
I don't understand the high BAB requirement. Why not just adapt Dervish Dance to be "select one weapon"? It's doing the exact same thing, except that your feat allowed for dual wielding (which introduces new issues). Your feat also allows for 2-handing for bonus damage, which is counter intuitive.
Adapt Dervish Dance to fit your game (any 1 weapon, 2 ranks in acrobatics) and you're done.
The reason why I have it as a high base attack bonus is I don't feel that this is something that should be allowed as a low level feat. As far as dervish dance goes I think it actually suffers from the problem of not having a high enough barrier to entry and is misused in many cases beyond the original intentions of the author as a result.
As far as the two-weapon fighting being used I wanted to be able to allow that as many fencing styles actually focused on fighting with two-weapons, such as the Florentine Style that used a rapier and shield-breaker dagger. Although, I admit I may just be too selective with my history as their where other styles I believe that allowed shields, and to my understanding modern fencing actually incorporates heaver weapons into the style such as sabers and claymores (although I still am going to change this now to avoid the problems outlined below).
As two the two-handed bonus damage that was an mistake on my part as a did not realize rapiers and such could be used to get a two-handed bonus to damage. As a result I think I'll change it to drop the "and carrying a shield" to be "must have off-hand free". That should eliminate two-handed fighting, two-weapon fighting, and carrying a shield all in one go.
I second dunebugg's suggestion, but I advise specifying 'a two handed weapon wielded while using this feat only does 1x Dex bonus damage, not 1.5x.' Depending on the flavor of your campaign you may want to specify it is not compatible with Power Attack.
I only suggest this because Dex based damage is going to be based more on precision and your ability to attack at angles your foe is not expecting. Its not the brute WAM of a strength attack.
The 1.5x Dex bonus was an mistake on my part and will be corrected. Honestly, it was just one of those things I thought I knew and didn't actually read too deep into the rules. Only to find out today that I was, in fact, wrong.
Also, I am not two worried about Power Attack as I don't see too many people reaching for it now that I will the removing the ability to use two-handed fighting with this feat, and if I did I would also have to go in and make a special concession that while Power Attack is banned Piranha Strike would still most likely work, which creates the same mechanical effect just with light weapons.
I also have a feat for this very thing, but it requires focus and also only applies to one weapon.
Fencing Strike (Combat)
Created by troupe of Varisian acrobats this style of fencing emphasizes balance and speed over raw power.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Weapon Finesse, Acrobatics 5 ranks
Benefit: Choose a single one-handed weapon from the weapon finesse feat that is appropriately sized for your character. When wielding that weapon and not carrying a medium or heavy load, not wearing medium or heavy armor, and not carrying a weapon or a shield in your off hand you may use your Dex modifier in place of your Str modifier on melee damage rolls. A one-weapon wielded in both hands while using this feat only applies 1x Dex modifier to melee damage instead of 1.5x Dex modifier to melee damage.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different finessable weapon.
Ok, so I lied and presented it as Dervish Dance is presented just with higher qualifiers. If the more people think the restrictions need to come down then I'll lower them to match Dervish Dance.