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So, I've gotten this idea recently to get at least two Kitsune characters with nine tails (using this feat), one of them being inspired by a character named Hakumen from the fighting game series Blazblue. Basically, the idea is to play a wandering kitsune samurai (most likely Chaotic Good) who is on a zealous quest to do good and purge evil, though my character is quite a bit less a jerk about it than Hakumen happens to be.
In other words, I plan to play a Kitsune Samurai of the Sword Saint archetype, who is most likely a Ronin. How do I optimize this build, even with the feat tax of gaining the Magical Tails as soon as possible? What items should I take, and how can I maximize the usefulness of the tail feats?
Let us assume I am allowed a 30 point buy, since we usually roll stats instead.
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Just so you know, a 30pt buy is ridiculously high for Pathfinder. My friends and I like high powered games, and we do 25pb.
Item wise, I can't think of anything special. Good sword, good armor.
Let me just mention some alternatives to that Samurai archetype, that could also fit your concept. Unless you're already sold on the samurai one.
And let me mention as an alternative, if you want to be the unarmored samurai, the Kensai archetype for Magus.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus -archetypes/kensai
Kensai literally translates to Sword Saint (wiki told me so!). For the Kensai, I'd suggest getting Dervish Dance as soon as possible and using a Scimitar. Reflavor it as a katana, and you're golden (they have the same crit range, the scimitar is just a d6 instead of d8). Then after that, you can sink all your feats into tails.
Or you can be a Paladin. There's no archetype that translates to Sword Saint here, but you can use a sword and be a saint. Great for purging evil, and getting mileage out of your charisma (which will be used for your spell-likes from the tails as well).
I wanted to take a Sword Saint Samurai because a friend of mine made a border-line evil one that my character should be able to defeat despite losing feats to getting those tails. Also, a Paladin cannot be Chaotic Good.
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I think you should not go with the Ronin order, use the other samurai order instead. Samurai are essentially automatically optimized. When you have spare feats, pick up Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization in your favored samurai weapon (presumably the katana). Then liberally splash in your kitsune feats. Done.
If you want something exotic/special in the build, then you need to specify what you have in mind.
Well, it should be a pretty even fight if it's a mirror match, though you'll be at a disadvantage from taking the tail feats instead of combat ones. You'd have a good chance of maybe hitting him with one of your will-based spell-likes, but he'd also have Resolute for a better chance to shake it off.
You should be able to defeat him in a mirror match with some luck. If you want to have a strong advantage despite taking the tail feats, I suggest Paladin (assuming that you'd only need to fight him if he actually crosses the border into Evil. Then a holy weapon is nice too, for any class).
Though if you're far enough in the tail feats to have Displacement, that gives you a real enough advantage against him. That's the 6th tail feat, so you'd have to be lvl 11 if you only take the tail feats. Not bad.
Yeah, I figured it would not be dishonorable to use one's natural abilities in a duel. The kitsune would not be cheating in that case.
Blackblood, knowing which DM we are talking about, I remain skeptical.
Okay, then how should I build this character if I do not have to take the tail feats?
Kitsune have a Strength penalty, and I'm not very familiar with all the abilities a Samurai has, or what stats and feats to focus on.
What was the cost of an Agile weapon?
And I'm still not sure of which feats to take.
Wait, was the katana finesseable?
Huh, that made me think he'd fool the rival by dropping his katana, and suddenly using his wakizashi instead. Would also be kinda funny, since he'd sort of be mocking the katana-wielding jerk. Then again, the opponent might just call the move rather clever, since he'd refuse to show his real skills up until he'd go for the finishing strike.
I think you should not go with the Ronin order, use the other samurai order instead. Samurai are essentially automatically optimized. When you have spare feats, pick up Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization in your favored samurai weapon (presumably the katana). Then liberally splash in your kitsune feats. Done.
If you want something exotic/special in the build, then you need to specify what you have in mind.
Doesn't the Samurai Order demand I have a daimyo I serve? Then again, maybe the daimyo is dead and my character is carrying on his last will.
just wanted to say love the idea of a ninetail kitsune samurai.I have been wanting a play a kitsune sword saint for awhile.I would go twf with the Wakizashi.See if your dm will let you take improves weapon finesse from 3.5
Were there any TWF samurai in history, aside from Miyamoto Musashi? I am not even sure if it was Musashi or someone else who did that. Also, I am not sure if he'd support 3.5e feats. He hasn't mentioned if he did, but I'm skeptical until proven otherwise.
cant you also take cavalier orders as well? for a hakumen-type character I'd personally go with order of the seal (preferably protecting a mcguffin or working to keep the worldwound/whatever hellgate is appropriate to the setting closed) because it'd be thematically appropriate, the 5-foot-hopping style of combat is startlingly accurate, and the free maneuvers are always nice.
grab a nodachi/greatsword (or a naginata for a reach-trip setup i suppose, since you get a free trip when you full attack, so why not) and go to town, maybe taking a few levels in paladin later. at level two take keeper (place--whatever hellgate etc. etc.)
That sounds like an option, though I still worry about the Lawful Good requirement of a Paladin.
But wouldn't the Nodachi require a good Str score to be effective? Lastly, I need to take some good but fitting traits.
That sounds like an option, though I still worry about the Lawful Good requirement of a Paladin.
But wouldn't the Nodachi require a good Str score to be effective?
i was more referring for a strength build, because--while i hate to be the sub-optimal supporter here--a racial str hit doesn't mean all that much. not having an obscenely high strength isn't the end of the world, especially if you've got a party helping you out.
Good point, but I still worry about that one-on-one duel to the death with that evil Sword Saint.
Good point, but I still worry about that one-on-one duel to the death with that evil Sword Saint.
with proper application of reach, tripping, debuffs and such, he'd be hard-pressed to even fight you at all.
So, what kind of build do you suggest?
Let's assume you know what traits, possibly the tail feats and Nodachi-related feats I'd need to take.
So, what kind of build do you suggest?
Let's assume you know what traits, possibly the tail feats and Nodachi-related feats I'd need to take.
not a clue, actually. i've been throwing this idea together as i've been replying. will report back once i've got something more substantial. i'd assume you'd pick a direction and stick to it.
if you want tails abilities; displacement, dominate person, and invisibility seem decent enough (but at the feat investment required, not necessarily worth it), there's a standard trip setup (havent played/made one myself, but i'm sure you could track one down on the forums or from a generous poster in this topic later), going for something crazy like pin down, or having the naginata for reach trolling and actually going a dex wakizashi build with quickdraw when he closes...
Okay, a couple points:
1. If you want the magical tails, you have to realize that it is an enormous feat tax. Doing the tails and a Dexterity build is going to be rough to fit it all in. You will have at least 3 combat feats to do it with, so that's not too bad. Although if you decide against a dex build, go with heavy armor and the feat Noble Scion, which can allow you to use your Charisma for your initiative modifier.
2. Having a high Charisma will help you as a Sword Saint because of your Terrifying Iaijatsu. With a conductive weapon and Eldrich Heritage: Undead (and Robes of Arcane Heritage), you would get the ability to make someone frightened with your Iaijatsu if they failed two Will saves, and warriors aren't often good at those. The problem is if your Rival declares an honorable stand, they are immune to such tactics. But it would be fun to use on people who aren't immune to fear. Intimidation isn't the best route for this because it can't upgrade to frightened. It isn't a bad skill to have for social situations though.
3. Displacement is awesome. Getting it twice a day is fantastic. I would definitely recommend it for the duel if you have any time to prepare.
4. The one thing that you gain as a Kitsune is Vulpine Pounce. You do have to spend a swift action to do it (as you have to switch to your kitsune form which because of the prerequisite takes a swift action), but pounce is great. It is too bad your archetype gives up banner, because that would be really useful if you were pouncing. Order of the Ronin and TWF with Wakazashis could really be devastating if you could get the challenge off before the first round, you might even be able to decide it just like that.
5. You get spells, a spell storing weapon is an option. Having a spell storing weapon and putting Confusion in it is a really good idea though (confusion counts because it is a 3rd level bard spell)
6. If you go with the magical tails, you will only get 2 feats other than your magical tail feats not counting bonus feats. If you go with Vulpine Pounce, that's both of them. That means, as a Samurai, you only get 5 feats that aren't magical tail feats. As a fighter, you would get a whole lot more bonus feats, and thus more options in combat. To be honest, the sword saint is not a very good Archetype for optimization. Other options would be better. Ranger or Fighter might be better for you if you want all the tails.
7. UMD. This could be a lifesaver for you. Get the trait that makes it a class bonus, and you could be buffing yourself with quite a bit of magic. Sure it is a bit expensive, but you will be 20th level at this time. You should be okay with a few low level wands. Mirror image is good too.
In Conclusion, I tried a couple builds, and you will really have to focus on one attack strategy with as few feats as you would gain through all of the magical tails. The problem with that is that it makes you predictable, and might also make you more vulnerable.
Now that you mention it, I could just fluff a Fighter as a Samurai, right? I'd still want to keep the concept intact, and the Sword Saint still seems like the more appealing option for me in spite of the information you have given, if only for fluff reasons. Isn't there a combat feat similar to the Iaijutsu Strike somewhere, too?
OR you could multiclass fighter and Samurai- Four levels of Fighter should do it pretty nicely. It gets you three feats, bravery and armor taining, all of which should be helpful.
Weapon master fighter also fits.
OR you could multiclass fighter and Samurai- Four levels of Fighter should do it pretty nicely. It gets you three feats, bravery and armor taining, all of which should be helpful.
Weapon master fighter also fits.
How about three levels?
Three levels and gloves of dueling would be a good trade.
The only classes that would work with Magical Tail Kitsunes would be classes that grant bonus feats.
Samurai can work, but don't forget that out of your 13 feats, 8 of tehm will be Magical Tail.
(Seriously, why isn't that feat a scalable one, like you pick that feat once and it grants you the extra spell-like abilities as you level up ? )
The only classes that would work with Magical Tail Kitsunes would be classes that grant bonus feats.
Samurai can work, but don't forget that out of your 13 feats, 8 of tehm will be Magical Tail.
(Seriously, why isn't that feat a scalable one, like you pick that feat once and it grants you the extra spell-like abilities as you level up ? )
My alternative character idea was a Kitsune Rogue, perhaps of the archetype exclusive to them, but that's for another thread. I am well-aware of the feat tax, and I wish I knew why that feat has to be picked eight times instead of scaling with level. Then again, scaling feats were available in a 3.5e homebrew I played, which is VERY good.
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OP - Assuming the build out to 20 I would recommend:
Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter) 3
Sorceror 1
Samurai (Sword Saint) 16
- Breakdown -
Lv. Class | Feats
1. Fighter 1 | 1. Tail Feat, B. Improved Unarmed Strike
2. Fighter 2 | B. Dodge
3. Fighter 3 | 2. Tail Feat
4. Sorcerer 1 |
5. Samurai 1 | 3. Crane Style
6. Samurai 2 |
7. Samurai 3 | 4. Tail Feat
8. Samurai 4 |
9. Samurai 5 | 5. Osyluth Guile
10. Samurai 6 | B. Crane Wing
11. Samurai 7 | 6. Tail Feat
12. Samurai 8 |
13. Samurai 9 | 7. Tail Feat
14. Samurai 10 |
15. Samurai 11 | 8. Tail Feat
16. Samurai 12 | B. Crane Riposte
17. Samurai 13 | 9. Tail Feat
18. Samurai 14 |
19. Samurai 15 | 10. Tail Feat
20. Samurai 16 |
With this setup you will have Overhand Chop from Two-Handed fighter that doubles your strength adjustment when attacking with a two-handed weapon (instead of x1.5). The build is designed not to be a one-hit killer in this duel, but rather a switch-hitter that can survive, and also emphasizes a kitsune's trickster nature.
With Sorceror (Fey Bloodline) you will get the Laughing Touch ability. This will get you a touch attack that will cripple your opponent into nothing but fitful laughter for a round. This will rob them of a round's worth of attacks against you.
The Samurai (Sword Saint) abilities speak for themselves. Your primary damage will be your initial iaijutsu strike against your opponent, followed by a game of duck-and-weave with ripostes and opportunistic attacks whenever you seen an opening.
When fighting defensively with crane style, Osyluth Guile will allow you to stack your Charisma modifier onto your AC (which is a boon stat for Kitsune). Since you are going for a STR build and have classes that focus on heavy armor, you won't need to boost DEX too much, allowing you to focus on STR and CHA to maximize damage output and defensive capabilities (since the +Cha mod boost will stack with dodge and your armor bonus).
Don't worry about not being able to cast your sorcerer spells in heavy armor, you primarily have it for the Fey bloodline ability (though feather fall is one of a handful of 1st level utility spells with no somatic components you can take full advantage of).
You will notice that Crane Wing requires that you have a hand free, so what you can do with this is take the opportunity to sheathe your sword when you go defensive (which will look pretty cool and confident), and then if you get a riposte from Crane Riposte, you can quick-draw the nodachi back out to strike. (This would be even more awesome if that is how you perform your first Iaijutsu strike; as a riposte).
If you opt to drop the tail feats, I would add Power Attack, Cornugon Smash, and the rest of the Spring Attack tree for mobility, maybe Vital Strike as well.
Wait, how much will the build change if I leave out the Sorcerer level?
Hardly anything, you just lose the Laughing Touch and a couple utility spells. I'd take another level of Fighter for another bonus feat at that juncture.
Alternately if your stats roll out well, a level of Monk could change needing to take Imp. Unarmed Strike as a feat and get you Wisdom to AC (if you want to go Unarmored). Furthermore you could take the Master of Many Styles archetype and get Crane Style for free at monk level 1, opening up another feat too.
I'd rather not dip to Monk, because I wanna wear the armor. It fits the theme, more or less.
With fighter you should be well off, then, and still be able to pull off having all nine tails and not be crippled by the feat tax on it.
Ok lets see if I can speed build you a level 8
20 POINT BUY IN
STR 12-2RACE (10)
DEX 18+2RACE+1LEVEL+1LEVEL+2BELT (24)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 7+2RACE (9)
BAB 8/3
HP 83
AC 21
SAVES 8/9/4
CMB 8
CMD 25
ATTACKS
ECB 1D10+8 (+17/+12 TO HIT)
-PIRANHA STRIKE +6 DAMAGE, -3 TO HIT
-CHALLENGE +8 DAMAGE +3 TO HIT +3 TO AC VS CHALLENGE TARGET (RONIN, MIGHT BE WRONG, DOING THIS FROM MEMORY)
1 EXOTIC WEAPON (ELVEN CURVED BLADE)
3 WEAPON FINESSE
5 WEAPON FOCUS
6 PIRANHA STRIKE
7 IRON WILL
ITEMS
+1 MITHRAL CHAIN SHIRT (5 ARMOR / 6 DEX) (2K? I CAN'T REMEMBER THE PRICE OF MITHRAL)
BELT OF DEX +2 (4K)
AGILES ELVEN CURVED BLADE +1 (8K)
I think that's everything, besides skill points and what not. I dropped charisma because, being a fighter type, you're mechanically better at killing than talking. A belt of Wis would help bump up your will save a bit more, but resolve will also help you shrug off mind or fear effects so it's not TOO important. I was pretty minimal in items because I don't know what your DM is like, so if you have spare cash don't be afraid to pump more +s into your armor and weapon.
I made this in about 10 minutes, so sorry if there is something mechanically wrong with it.
EDIT: Now that I'm not pressed for time, ask your DM if you could use Dervish Dance and substitute the Scimitar for the Wakizashi as (stat wise) they are almost identical. You would save 6k getting an agile weapon, and you would spend the level 1 feat on weapon finesse and the level 2 feat on dervish dance instead, and this would also allow you to take feats like weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, etc.
I think I'd go with Lucent's build.
Any ideas for traits and a deity to choose?
There is a nine-tail fox deity that I forget the name of in the Dragon Empires guide. I think they are the god of... rice? I don't have the book handy right now. Shizuru also seems to fit the idea, Irori as well.
As for traits, I think you're probably free to pick and choose whatever seems most thematic for you. I can't think of a trait your build would rely on strongly. Though I might recommend Defender of the Society.
Daikitsu, the goddess of kitsune, rice and craftsmanship. Then again, Shizuru does sound fitting.
Defender of the Society has that requirement of being associated with the Pathfinders, which I doubt my character will be.
It's why he'd grab a nodachi instead of the traditional katana.
I am suspicious of the allowing of 3rd party material.
And I can't really imagine this character using a Spiked Chain.
Historically, japanese sword fighting with two swords is called "niten ichiryu", mainly promoted by Miyamoto.
It´s a bit special it seems though. You use a katana and an hoff-hand wakizashi and its kind of similar to european fencing with rapier and dagger.
In Pathfinder that is not rewarded mechanically and you are far better off using two weapons of the same kind with weapon focus.
Kind of sad somehow, there really should be a nice feat chain for such stuff. Nicer than TWF, more specialized on rapier and dagger or similar stuff, granting the offhand weapon more utility.
While the Butterfly sword has a nice boon, wakizashi seems to have the best stats in damage and crit.
And i totally agree on the nine-tails feat, its just too high a price and should really scale with level or just be a feature of kitsune already.
Remember when I mentioned the whole fantasy world, magical creatures, and how trying to be "historically accurate" does not even make sense?
I said that right?
I'm not trying to be historically accurate, I am creating the character with the image I originally got of him.