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Is the Point Blank Master feat a must for range attacking characters? Or is it not worth the feat slot for?
Question is for a bow using Fighter-class archer. (Not the Archetype. Pure Fighter.)
Point Blank Master (Combat)
You are adept at firing ranged weapons in close quarters.
Prerequisite: Weapon Specialization with selected ranged weapon.
Benefit: Choose one type of ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when firing the selected weapon while threatened.
Normal: Using a ranged weapon while you are threatened provokes attacks of opportunity.
Special: Starting at 6th level, a ranger with the archery combat style may select Point Blank Master as a combat style feat, but he must have Weapon Focus instead of Weapon Specialization in the selected weapon.
It just depends on how you envision playing your character. If you're a pure fighter, can I assume that you are planning on dropping your bow and drawing a sword at some point? In that case...I'd definitely get it and the Quick Draw feat. If you're adjacent and you fire, drop, and draw, no AoO's and now the enemy provokes from you as well. Plus next round you are ready for a full attack with your sword.
***EDIT***
Also, if you're GM is nice, he'll let you take 2 free actions, so shooting then dropping the bow and drawing, then attacking with the sword if you never move.
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It's always nice to be able to use your primary weapon in more situations. Unless you're a melee fighter using a bow as a backup, you probably have a lot invested in that bow, at least 5 or 6 feats, money, stats. I'd rather shoot that bow than grab a longsword off my belt if at all possible.
It's worthwhile if you wish to get up into melee range and make full attacks or expect monsters to get up in your melee range that you can't just 5' Step out of range. Otherwise, you're provoking for each arrow you shoot.
Yes, it's an occupational necessity. The Step Up feat, written I assume w/ the intent to mess with casters, in practice just forces them to make an easy concentration check, and...completely hoses reach weapon users and archers.
Most combat in the game will be in close quarters, not 100s of ft aay in an open field. And many enemies can teleport or otherwise make the "I stand in the way!" meatshield worthless. Having PBM to protect yourself is essential. Even if you're trading blows 1-for-1, melee attacks tend to do more damage than ranged ones (higher base damage and higher str due to less MAD, and possibly 1.5x str mod if 2Hing), so you're already at a disadvantage, to then give the foe a bunch of extra attacks on top of that? Just get the feat. Compare to Weapon Focus. How many attacks will that +5% to hit turn from misses to hits? Then think of how many AoOs you'll avoid by having PBM. Should compare favorably.
It is somewhat of a necessity most of the time for archers. It gets rid of the pesky AoO, for when they suddenly get bunched on by a teleporter, or a charging barbarian. It is preferable for most archers typically when your. It playing in wide open fields, but are instead playing a typical game in either a dungeon, a room, in the forests and so forth.
Some classes provide the PBM feat, or something equivalent. The fighter archer archetype provides such an ability the same as point blank master, at 9th level. The zen archer gets an ability that gives them the PBM feat. If your archer plans to get into melee a lot, regardless of their choosing, it's needed and worth it. ranger archers typically pick this u, either through their bonus feat, or normal feat use.
Some types of classes that most likely won't need it, rogue archer ( they are very mobile, and can easily get out of the way of a melter, sometimes better than the zen archer), bard archer (not a highly dedicate archer typically, uses feat slots to help boost archery and their singing ability), cleric archer ( magic is a huge draw for the cleric typically, Moreso than the archery. The PBM feat might actually be good for th, if they focus more on the archery side and get closer to the actio. If they tend to play more faster style and in the back more often, your better off not picking up PBM). That's typically it, the other archer types are more rare, so they tend to not pick this up, since they wold more utilize the feats for the actual class advantages, and not the bow. The big 3 archer classes, zen archer, ranger, fighter, and the EHK/AA combo, not many classes will utilize the feat that much.
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Thanks for all the advice.
I'm building a Dwarf Archer using the fighter-class as a base. The focus is purely as an Archer. He is not going to draw a melee weapon unless there is no other choice.
(I did thought of playing a monk Zen Archer, but that archetype seems to be overly used.)
I'm focusing on getting the Snap Shot feat line + the other "normal" range feats like Mult-shot.
However, with so many feats devoted to combat feats, I'm hoping to save a feat slot or 2 for non-combat feats.
The problem with the Archer-Figher... is the need to a ton of combat feats to function on the same level as other archer builds, or even just to function on an acceptable level.
Point Blank Master is one of the feats I'm hoping to not pick up.
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just keep in mind, that a smart monster will trip you while you're in melee. then you cant use your bow at all. the only way you should use this feat is if your gm is nice AND you fight dumb monsters because otherwise you should be hindered from attacking.
and im assuming by archer fighter you mean the archer archetype, but i would change it to a mobile fighter. they are so sexy to make into archers.
The archer fighter loses no combat capabilities as the archetype when compared to the normal fighter class. They gain abilities,mans lose out on weapon training multiple weapons, potential loss of dueling gloves ( GM fiat), armor bonus, that's it. They gain the same feats, and the archetype actually provides the PBM feat as an ability, so that actually saves you a feat. IMO. Snap shot is amazing. Since ou plan on going fighter, might I suggest picking p the pin down feat. It works very well with your IMO. Snap shot feats, so that when your opponent tries to 5 ft step or withdraw, you make an AoO to prevent their movement. Pretty nice.
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@Archetypes - I did thought of playing the Archer or Mobile fighter archetypes, but did not for 2 reasons.
1) The character is for PFS and caps at level 12. This make archetypes with late stage benefits like the Mobile Fighter less appealing.
2) I'm playing a DWARF archer. I feel wearing full plate into battle makes total sense. As an Archer archetype, I get the equivalent of a feat and the ability to make some CMB attacks at range, but I lose that armor!
@ Eakratz, Thanks for that ideal. Going to stock up on some throwing weapons. :)
@TheSideKick, I'm playing a Dwarf... :P
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@Archetypes - I did thought of playing the Archer or Mobile fighter archetypes, but did not for 2 reasons.
1) The character is for PFS and caps at level 12. This make archetypes with late stage benefits like the Mobile Fighter less appealing.
2) I'm playing a DWARF archer. I feel wearing full plate into battle makes total sense. As an Archer archetype, I get the equivalent of a feat and the ability to make some CMB attacks at range, but I lose that armor!
@ Eakratz, Thanks for that ideal. Going to stock up on some throwing weapons. :)
@TheSideKick, I'm playing a Dwarf... :P
oh then if youre playing a dwarf, then grapple, disarm, or sundered...
The usefulness of Point Blank Master really depends on how often you find your archer on the frontline and how you expect to deal with it.
- If you're already a switch-hitter then it's probably not so stellar (lets you hit enemies at a distance rather than the guy that's in your grill).
- If your plan mainly involves trying to five foot away, hoping your opponent doesn't have reach and eating AoO if they do then Point Blank Master is really very good.
Our (pure archer) fighter/ranger got great use of the feat in a giant-heavy campaign that shall remain unnamed since she had invested all of her feats in archery.
So is the special exception here that Rangers have to take Focus for this one feat, or have I been doing it wrong and Rangers do need to meet pre-reqs for all their combat style feats?
The restriction is modified for Rangers, but not waived. Rangers have to meet the prereq for PBM by taking Weapon Focus.
My archery-focused Ranger did that by taking two levels of Zen Archer; among other benefits, that dip gave him WF with a bow type as a bonus feat.
Tripping and other ways of falling prone are something any archer should addess in their build. Ranks in Acrobatics for balance are always helpful. There are feats like Ki Stand and Monkey Style to get up as a swift and thus stll be able to full attack, though both are a pain for non-Zen Archers to get.
PBM's ranger note is a special exception. I wish they hadn't done it, it just makes things more confusing, and no ranger in his right mind is going to take that at 6 over Imp. Precise Shot anyway, so having to wait till 10th level for a feat Zen Archers get at 3 and Fighters at 4 (take Specialization as your bonus feat, and swap out an old feat for PBM, you do not have to wait till 5th level) seems like enough of a handicap already.
The usefulness of Point Blank Master depends on your fighter or ranger and whether being forced into melee range forces your build to change tactics or waste actions.
- If you are playing a pure archer that has few effective combat tactics aside from full-attacking with his bow then Point Blank Master is very useful when fighting large opponents or when in difficult terrain.
- If you are playing a burly switch hitter then switching to a great sword instead of attacking with arrows is not such a terrible eventuality that you need to bother spending a feat to mitigate it.
@OP - Our archer is the first kind and she's gotten a lot of use of PBM since we're playing in a giant-heavy campaign. PBM isn't so good that it's a must have* for every archer build. Instead how you move in combat should depend on how tough your dwarven fighter archer is in terms of AC/CMD/HP and the capacity of your party's frontline to keep enemies at bay.
* My philosophy on how good a feat is: If every build should have it then the feat is probably over-powered and its underpowered if it's so weak or highly situational that no PC would put it into his build except for flavor purposes. Still might be good for NPCs though.
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1) The character is for PFS and caps at level 12. This make archetypes with late stage benefits like the Mobile Fighter less appealing.
I've only played PFS up to the 3-4 tier, so I can't say what higher tiers are like, but PBM will be almost necessary for the lower tier type fights. The vast majority of scenarios are in enclosed spaces, my archer generally gets 1 clean shot and then the rest of the combat he's basically got a permanent -4 to hit due to meleers standing in the way in at least 3/4 of the fights he's in (or would have been in if I'd played him in other adventures.) Not just people who don't know how to not stand in the way of the archer, but a lot of the time there just isn't anywhere else for them to go.
I think your group composition and type of encounters are the biggest determinant of whether or not PBM will be good. My area has a lot of people playing melee or summoning characters, and PFS encounters are mostly inside. But your area might be more ranged heavy, so you might not have 3 or 4 meleers in a group the way I usually do. In my case, it's definitely worth taking.
Even more importantly, you're planning the Snap Shot line of feats, so you're intending to get in there and mix it up anyway. PBM seems to synergize well with how you intend to play anyway. Go for it.
Thanks for the advice! Not I just need to decide at what level to take the feat.
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Since you are planning on building an archer/tank, I would advise taking it as early as possible, using the 4th level fighter feat change or the 5th level feat for it.
L1: Point Blank Shot
F1: Precise shot
F2: Rapid Shot
L3: Weapon Focus: Longbow
F4: Weapon Spec: Longbow
F4: Retrain Rapid Shot into PBM
L5: Rapid Shot
F6: Snap Shot
L7: Manyshot
F8: Greater Weapon Focus
L9: Improved Snap Shot
F10: Improved Critical
L11: Improved Precise Shot
F12: Greater Snap Shot
@Melissa Litwin: Some of the feats you listed have much higher requirements than PBM. Others are, in my opinion, not of sufficient value to waste a feat slot on, specifically Clustered Shots. For most DR, having someone in the party to learn what bypasses the DR is sufficient, along with a good stock of arrows, to make Clustered Shots redundant. Heck, use cold iron blunt arrows that have been blanched silver, and you can ignore a significant amount of DR right out of the box. And have the option of doing non-lethal damage, to boot.
@Grizzly the Archer: Only Fighters and Rangers can take the PBM feat. A few archetypes get it, or something similar, as a special case, but rogues, bards and others need not apply. I think it might be possible for a couple of Magus archetypes to get it, but that is because they get to take feats as a fighter of their level minus three, so at 7th level they can take Weapon Spec, so they can qualify to grab PBM at a later level.
Also, as mentioned, in PFS, a lot of the combats are going to be in enclosed spaces, where you are more likely to wind up with opponents able to reach you. Or where you wind up as the frontline fighter for the party, especially if you do go for plate. My own archer fighter, in chain shirt or breastplate, has wound up the front line fighter more times than I have been happy with. :(
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DR/-. DR/adamantine. DR/silver and good. Heck, DR/alignment at all. Clustered Shots is the most ridiculous archer feat in existence and a requirement as soon as possible.
DR/- -> Sure, but fairly rare, after all.
DR/Adamantine -> If you have someone with knowledge skills, and either adamantine arrows, or adamantine blanched arrows, no problem. Also overcome by the time your wqeapon is +4, IIRC.
DR/Alignment -> Bless Weapon from your friendly Paladin or UMD user with a wand... Also overcome by a +5 weapon enhancement.
I will agree that it is ridiculous. What a ridiculous waste of a feat slot!
I've only played PFS up to the 3-4 tier, so I can't say what higher tiers are like, but PBM will be almost necessary for the lower tier type fights. The vast majority of scenarios are in enclosed spaces, my archer generally gets 1 clean shot and then the rest of the combat he's basically got a permanent -4 to hit due to meleers standing in the way in at least 3/4 of the fights he's in (or would have been in if I'd played him in other adventures.) Not just people who don't know how to not stand in the way of the archer, but a lot of the time there just isn't anywhere else for them to go.
I think your group composition and type of encounters are the biggest determinant of whether or not PBM will be good. My area has a lot of people playing melee or summoning characters, and PFS encounters are mostly inside. But your area might be more ranged heavy, so you might not have 3 or 4 meleers in a group the way I usually do. In my case, it's definitely worth taking.
Even more importantly, you're planning the Snap Shot line of feats, so you're intending to get in there and mix it up anyway. PBM seems to synergize well with how you intend to play anyway. Go for it.
Are you sure you don't confuse PBM with Precise Shot or Improved Precise Shot?
PBM does nothing at all to help with the -4 of softcover (standing in the way) or the -4 for being in melee.
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@Kinevon,
Why do you retrain Rapid shot to PBM at level 4? then pick it up again at level 5?
Also I got 1 level of Crusader Cleric at level 2 so my progression is a little different...
L01)L1: Point Blank Shot
L01)F1: Precise shot
L02)C1: Weapon Focus: Shortbow
L03)F2: Rapid Shot
L03)L3: Weapon Spec: Shortbow
L04)F3: -
l05)F4: PBM
L05)L5: Combat Reflexes
L06)F5: -
L07)F6: Manyshot
L07)L7: Snap Shot
L08)F7: -
L09)F8: Greater Weapon Focus
L09)L9: Deadly Aim
L10)F9: -
L11)F10: Improved Snap Shot
L11)L11: Steel Soul/Disruptive
L12)F11: -
I know what you are thinking... WTH? That 1 level of Cleric makes me lost out on at least 2 lv 11-12 figher feats.
I playing this build for 3 reasons:
1) I love to play clerics. And a Cleric with the Travel Domain = +10 movement and the ability to ignore DT!
2) While I may not have the pure damage power of a 12 level fighter-archer. I am a lot more survivable. I gain the level 1 boost to my saves from the cleric and have much better will saves.
3) Finally since this is PFS, the ability to heal yourself is important. Especially if there are no clerics in the party.
Secane:
Feather Step Slippers: 2000gp and you ignore difficult terrain movement penalties. You can make 5' steps. Why waste a level on the travel domain when for 2000gp you can ignore DT?
Also, you cannot take Weapon Specialization at level 3. It requires fighter 4.
Kinevon: I would keep Rapid Shot and take Weapon Specialization at level 5. +2damage to 1 arrow is not worth the loss of 4.5+str damage from a second arrow.
- Gauss
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Secane:
Feather Step Slippers: 2000gp and you ignore difficult terrain movement penalties. You can make 5' steps. Why waste a level on the travel domain when for 2000gp you can ignore DT?
Also, you cannot take Weapon Specialization at level 3. It requires fighter 4.- Gauss
Thanks for the heads up on Weapon Specialization. I will swap it for Combat Reflexes at level 3.
In fact... I may get Steel Soul at level 3 instead. Combat Reflexes really only goes well with Improved Snap Shot. I will get CF and ISS at level 11 instead.
Why are you investing feats into shortbow and not longbow?
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Why are you investing feats into shortbow and not longbow?
It is partly due to flavor, partly due to the limitation of Deities available in Golarion.
I'm using a Compound Shortbow as the only Deity with the Travel Domain and a bow weapon is Sinashakti. Who list the Shortbow as his favored weapon.
Since the lv 1 free feat, (In this case, Weapon Focus) given to Crusader Clerics requires that the weapon be the Deity's favored weapon. I can only make use of the Compound Shortbow.
I know it is a drop in damage output, but I'm playing this character in PFS for fun and not as a min/maxed character.
Of course, this does not means that I don't optimize my character. He is just not as combat focused as a pure Figher-archer or Zen Archer build.
At lv 12, he should look like a Dwarf in Full-Plate/thick armor, wielding a short bow, raining damage down on his foes. :)
If you really really want to make archery characters cry...
1) Maximum indoor archery range is 3x the ceiling height.
2) It takes a round to string a bow. Getting a bowstring wet renders the bow unusable.
I've seen two characters with Cluster Shot. Starting around 7th level or later, you're going to see at least one, and usually two encounters per PFS module where a target has DR 10/(something). Cluster shot always works...and synergizes horrifically well with firearms.
1) Maximum indoor archery range is 3x the ceiling height.
You never shot a bow have you?
Especially at short ranges you aim directly at the target and the arrow flies in a straight line. You only have to do the arc-shooting with very distant targets.
Secane: I think Cluster Shot is horrifically overpowered on a "shoot copious arrows downrange" build, and even worse for guns. I would love to see it nerfed in some way. As to having the right arrows...you'll burn through a lot of gold on adamantine arrows, since if they hit, they're non-recoverable, and they cost 60 GP each. It doesn't take a lot before Cluster Shot outcompetes.
The "comparable" ability for melee weapons (Penetrating Strike) requires Fighter 12 to get - and only reduces DR by 5, against each hit.
So, I am all in favor of skipping Cluster Shot, but for reasons that are opposite yours. :)
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Secane: I think Cluster Shot is horrifically overpowered on a "shoot copious arrows downrange" build, and even worse for guns. I would love to see it nerfed in some way. As to having the right arrows...you'll burn through a lot of gold on adamantine arrows, since if they hit, they're non-recoverable, and they cost 60 GP each. It doesn't take a lot before Cluster Shot outcompetes.
The "comparable" ability for melee weapons (Penetrating Strike) requires Fighter 12 to get - and only reduces DR by 5, against each hit.
So, I am all in favor of skipping Cluster Shot, but for reasons that are opposite yours. :)
Actually... Weapon blanch, Adamantine only cost 100gp and it can coat up to 10 pieces of ammunition. That is only 10gp per arrow... .
You can even get the arrows be made out of Cold Iron for 2 times the cost of normal arrows AND blanch them in Silver or Adamantine for extra effect.In fact weapon blanching is GREAT for range-users, as blanching only works once and arrows are fire and forget.
You can read up more on blanching weapon here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-oth er-substances#TOC-Weapon-Blanch
Blanching appears in the APG.
Edit: Just realized that I sound just like a sales person... lol. Get Blanching today! :p
AdAstraGames:
Quatar is right. At most indoor encounter distances the trajectory is very flat.
- Gauss
I use the equivalent magic spell all the time. I decided to get the spell after 10-12 giant dragonflies surrounded me whilst i was flying around plugging enemies. I was completely hosed and had to fly to help. It's a 3.5 spell, zen archery or something in spell compendium. I use my bow all the time and don't bother with a sword at all. I'll probably get close quarters thrower for my alchemist character coming up next.
1) Maximum indoor archery range is 3x the ceiling height.You never shot a bow have you?
Especially at short ranges you aim directly at the target and the arrow flies in a straight line. You only have to do the arc-shooting with very distant targets.
I used to shoot competitively. When using bows with a draw of more than 30-50 lbs, you arch up because you're using more of your back muscles in them in my experience, at which point your shooting distance is constrained by ceiling height beyond 15 yards.
We always ended up with a number of fouled shots from shafts rubbing the 12' roof on indoor shoots at the 4H Pavillion - we didn't in the basketball courts.
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@Melissa Litwin, james maissen
Blanched Arrows stay blanched until the weapon makes a successful attack.
Kept a couple of each type of blanched arrows with you and you will always have the right weapon to by past, Silver, Cold Iron and Adamantine DR.
As I wrote above, you can even get Cold Iron Arrows (Which just cost x2, at 2gp.) and Blanch them Silver and Adamantine to cover both metal effects in 1 go.
Cluster shot seems to be something you get if you can't get access to all this alchemical materials.
Since this character is for PFS, I always have access to blanching...etc.
Dud. the situations where you can't just 5 foot step and shoot them in the face are so few and far between that it makes the feat very situational at best.
BigNorseWolf:
I have to disagree. Your statement depends entirely on the nature of the adventure. Some adventures have lots of difficult terrain. Others have lots of monsters with reach. In a 4person group the archer is probably one of two combat build characters. It is very easy for that archer to unable to step away from all attacks of opportunity.
Unless you (as a player) are able to predict the type of encounters you will face then I would seriously consider taking the feat.
- Gauss