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So, I posted on this a bit ago, but wasn't very clear as to what I was looking for. Below, I have a build for a knife master/scout.
Rogue (Knife Master/Scout)
Dex>Con>Cha>Wis>Int>Str
Ability increase: +2 Dex
Substitute Focused study for human bonus feat
Focused Study 1: Skill Focus: Acrobatics
Level 1 – Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2 – Talent: Finesse Rogue
Level 3 – Feat: Weapon focus: Dagger
Scout Feature: Scout’s Charge
Level 4 – Talent: Offensive Defense
Level 5 – Feat: Death From Above
Favored Class Talent: Ninja Trick: Hidden Weapons
Level 6 – Talent: Underhanded
Level 7 – Feat: Quick draw
Scout Feature: Skirmisher
Level 8 – Talent: Combat Trick: Combat Reflexes
Focused Study 8: Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Level 9 – Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 10 – Talent: Skill mastery: Use Magic Device, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
Level 11 – Feat: Lunge
Favored Class Talent: Fast Tumble
Level 12 – Talent: Opportunist
The character is an update from one I made for 3.5. I made it before I saw V for vendetta, but that's more or less the concept I'm going for.
- After level 4, use the charge action to guarantee SA when closing.
- Death from above gives +5 to charging from higher ground (jumping down on people should work for this until i can afford fly).
How does this look? Is there anything that I may have overlooked? Maybe someone knows a way I can optimize.
Well, there's definitely some people who have discussed this and there's some builds posted, but I would also like to see some advice and input on this topic, as Knife Master is on the shortlist (behind an archaeologist / mysterious stranger) for an AP I'm jumping into later this week.
I would strongly encourage building out feats so you can have charging hurler by 4th level.
Unless I misunderstand how the rules combine, this would allow a thrown knife, from any distance, to apply sneak attack damage, so long as you initiate a charge (which charging hurler allows you to do by merely closing by ten feet). Starknives qualify as knives for knifemaster, and have a 20ft range increment. If you build around throwing, Far shot and long distance thrower would equate to.... 0-60ft no penalty, 65-80ft -1 to hit, 85-100ft -2 to hit, 105-120ft -3 to hit, all with sneak damage so long as you have enough room to active charging hurler. This should cover the range of your average battle map, which means you will "usually" be in range.
It's not going to put other archer builds to shame, but it should score on the "always getting to roll a handful of d8s" and allows you to use standoff distance to protect yourself in ways that a "tumbling to flanking position 2 blade rogue" never can
Just my 2 cents
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Well since you're going with daggers instead of kukris you could always take the river rat trait, "assuming traits are allowed in your game" which gives +1 damage with each dagger, and a negligible +1 to swim.
You might want to take improved feint as you only get to attack with one dagger on the charge, and it gives you a little more options for landing sneak attacks.
If you're looking for the charge action to be your heavy hitter your probably better off wielding a two handed weapon. Generally speaking I think a Two-Weapon rogue should be looking for full attacks, to better take advantage of the extra sneak attack dice from all those attacks. I dunno though I don't really ever play rogues :/.
Starknives qualify as knives for knifemaster, and have a 20ft range increment.
I don't think that knife master rogues automatically gain any additional proficiencies, which means that unless you take martial weapon proficiency or a level of a martial class, i'd be stuck with daggers.
the charging hurler idea is a good one though.
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Take a look: The Shanker
Knife master and Scout are two of the best rogue archetypes out there, so it's awesome that you can combine them.
The build uses feint as a last resort, something which I found incredibly effective while playing him. Don't need no flankers when you can feint!
+1 for the feint maneuver.
I have a two-weapon rogue/fighter who took the two-weapon feint feat, and it's been pretty effective. The biggest benefit is that you can feint as part of a full attack action instead of using a move action. (I also get AC bonuses from two-weapon full attack actions from my fighter archetype, so this was useful in my case.)
Also, as a knife master, check out the spring loaded wrist sheath in Adventurer's Armory. Draw a dagger-sized weapon (or wand) as a free action, and get bonuses to conceal the weapon so you can get a surprise attack in, all for less than 10 gp. If you only use daggers, try out the wrist sheaths for a few levels before taking Quick Draw: you might find you don't need that feat.
If you're building a thrower, don't forget that throwing weapons into melee still has that -4 without Precise Shot.
Close Quarters Thrower lets you throw while in melee without taking attacks of opportunity. It requires Weapon Focus, which you already have on your list, so you might check out that feat.
I'm looking forward to seeing how you build out the character.
I like the idea of the wrist sheaths. I would only need quickdraw if i wanted to make a full attacks by throwing daggers.
How would "Death from Above" work with the scout archetype?
how about a net or tanglefoot bags?
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If you're looking for the charge action to be your heavy hitter your probably better off wielding a two handed weapon.
Agreed. From an optimization standpoint TWF will always be inferior to THF.
However I think I remember the original thread on this and the author really wants to make the knife master/scout work.If this is for PFS play I'd rather discourage it because most builds in PFS are optimized and players I've encountered with less optimized builds usually walk away from the table disappointed.
I wouldn't recommend feinting for this build or really any. It is too feat intensive for an already feat intensive (TWF) build. Plus you need 13 Int which is a dump stat for you.
Throwing is also inadvisable as you'll need extra weapons to make it work which will be weaker than you main and once again are giving up feats. Plus you'll only be making one attack per round where as you want to close the gap, or force your enemy too, and get in your full attacks.
Using a kukri will net you higher crit range, but of course isn't necessary since most of your damage comes from sneak. Use it but if it doesn't fit for flavor reasons then just pick up daggers. Immediately when you can afford it make both of them agile.
For tactics, let your friends engage the enemy first while you manuever yourself into a charge lane for flank. Consider scout's charge/skirmish "bonus" damage, not a concept to develop your whole build around. It just adds little damage so the next round you can full attack sneak.
Here's some suggested adjustments for your build:
lvl 1: TWF, Focused Study
lvl 2: Finesse Rogue
lvl 3: WF (Kukri/Dagger)
lvl 5: Dodge
lvl 7: Quick Draw (You may need to work with a GM so drawing concealed weapons is free action since normal is reduced to move action with quick draw and then further reduced to free with hidden weapons)
lvl 8: Combat Trick: Two-Weapon Defense (No need for combat reflexes. That feat is only useful for reach fighters)
lvl 9:Improved TWF
lvl 11: Lunge or Iron Will (Lunge for versatility, Iron Will for survivability)
the "new must have items" thread said something about the Blink Back Belt that should really help the whole throwing knives thing.
Death from above gives +5 to charging from higher ground (jumping down on people should work for this until i can afford fly).
While there's not explicit RAW not jumping is sufficient to activate Death from Above, but RAI clearly excludes it.
I'm curious on the idea of using Punching Daggers. I was thinking of using them as you'd never need to sheath them and you could run straight into battle, however an issue is that they have a crit range of 20x3 where as normal daggers are 19-20x2. Should I worry about the crit range or just stick with punching daggers and use normal daggers for throwing if say, catch a enemy unaware or hit enemies that are otherwise unaccessable. So far here's what I have with this PFS character.
The idea is she was brought up on the streets in the River Nations and even though she has a scar, she still works as a Courtisan and follows Callistra, but has a focus on revenge. She was the daughter of a noble to the north in Brevoy but was ousted and escaped to the river nations. Here's the build so far in Hero lab:
Yolanda Vislinski
Female Human (Chelaxian) Rogue (Knife Master, Scout) 1
CN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +5
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Defense
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AC 16, touch 14, flat-footed 12 (+2 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +1
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee dagger -2 (1d4/19-20) and
. . dagger -2 (1d4/19-20)
Special Attacks sneak attack +1d6
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 14
Feats Skill Focus (Acrobatics), Two-weapon Fighting
Traits bandit (river kingdoms), killer
Skills Acrobatics +11, Appraise +4, Climb +4, Disable Device +6, Perception +5, Profession (courtesean) +5, Sleight of Hand +8 (+8 to conceal a light blade), Stealth +9, Use Magic Device +4
Languages Common, Elven
SQ hidden blade
Other Gear leather armor, dagger, dagger, 136 gp
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Special Abilities
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Bandit (River Kingdoms) (Stealth) +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you.
Hidden Blade +0 +0 bonus on Slight of Hand checks to conceal a light blade.
Killer Add weapon's critical modifier to its critical bonus damage.
Sneak Attack +1d8/+1d4 +1d8 damage with a dagger-like weapon if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
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