Hey all,
I need some character building advice.
The character is a 1st lvl. Dwarf Fighter. I have decided to go down the iconic 'tank' route. Full-plate armour, heavy shield (as a back up bashing weapon), the whole works. Eventually ending up with the toughest adamantine armour.
I am leaning towards taking the armour master archetype for fighters but I am also looking at the Stalwart and Improved Stalwart feats from Ultimate Combat.
- They both offer DR X/- that improves over advancement but:
The feats DR stacks with other class features but not adamantine armour.
Armour Master grants DR that stacks with adamantine but nothing else.
Armour Master doesn't grant DR until level 5. It doesn't improve until level 19. I can't take Stalwart until level 4 but at least it works right away, even if it never gets as good.
I can't decide if it is worth taking the Stalwart feats. Taking them with the Armour Master archetype would give two different sources of DR. That could be useful because there may be times when my character is caught out of armour, and because getting the most out of the archetype's DR won't happen until much later levels.
What do you think?
"The best defense is a good offense. If you're only defensive, you limit yourself."
-- Wufei, Gundam Wing
EDIT: Not the first one to say it, of course. Just the first time I heard such wisdom. :)
Alternative piece of advice:
"Everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face."
-- Mike Tyson
Hey all,
I need some character building advice.
The character is a 1st lvl. Dwarf Fighter. I have decided to go down the iconic 'tank' route. Full-plate armour, heavy shield (as a back up bashing weapon), the whole works. Eventually ending up with the toughest adamantine armour.
I am leaning towards taking the armour master archetype for fighters but I am also looking at the Stalwart and Improved Stalwart feats from Ultimate Combat.
- They both offer DR X/- that improves over advancement but:The feats DR stacks with other class features but not adamantine armour.
Armour Master grants DR that stacks with adamantine but nothing else.Armour Master doesn't grant DR until level 5. It doesn't improve until level 19. I can't take Stalwart until level 4 but at least it works right away, even if it never gets as good.
I can't decide if it is worth taking the Stalwart feats. Taking them with the Armour Master archetype would give two different sources of DR. That could be useful because there may be times when my character is caught out of armour, and because getting the most out of the archetype's DR won't happen until much later levels.
What do you think?
Honestly, for the Archetype you're looking to play with, Mithral is the way to go for armor. Higher MDB, lower ACP, half weight, plus counts as Medium Armor (meaning you can walk normal speed with it sooner). If you're going the Shield Bash route, you can get that one made out of Adamantium, and/or (have a) Mithral (shield) for Hardness/DR Bypass purposes. If you're going to only be using a Heavy Shield (or 2 Light Shields/Bucklers) for weapons, I would suggest going the Crane Style line of feats; yes, you have to spend for Improved Unarmed and Dodge feats, but with all the bonus feats you get it isn't a bad proposition at all, when you can further improve your Fighting Defensively and Full Defense AC benefits, lower their penalties, and allows you a type of defense that coincides with your DR defenses, and deal a little extra damage on the side.
Shield Focus, Shield Specialization, and their upgrades/correlatory feats are pretty much essential for you if you plan to go shield.
But wait a minute...how does Stalwart say it stacks with Class Features (and not Adamantine), but Armor Mastery stacks with nothing but Adamantine (and not Stalwart feats)? Looks like we got another worthy FAQ candidate...I'd talk to your GM about it, and see as to how he would rule the multiple DR benefits and how it stacks (it seems like they all can't stack with each other, according to what you said). Some linked RAW on the matter would help out.
Stalwart and Armor Master.
There's no way to artificially draw aggro so you have to do it by having threat or blocking corridors. That means you have to do enough damage or have really good positioning and decent AoO's. The Armor Master archetype removes your Weapon Training so your damage won't be great. Stalwart requires a Total Defence action so you can't attack and you don't threaten so no AoO's.
Just tank by having reasonable Con (2nd highest stat behind Str), d10 HD and good damage.
Thanks for the replies!
I thought about mithril armour, but the armour master archetype has synergy with adamantine.. plus the concept just screams 'indestructible fortress that walks' and so does adamantine.
Shield bashing is a back up weapon, something to do with the shield he carries if his axe is out of commission for some reason. I will be taking all manner of shield feats - just the ones that let me cover other people and up defences.
Also: Stalwart works with fighting defensively, the total defence action, and Combat Expertise.
I did a little more work on the problem and came up with this:
Using the Stalwart feat (and the Improved Stalwart feat later on which doubles the DR)and Combat Expertise, the DR progression looks like this:
Lvl 4: DR 2/- [with a -2 penalty to attack.]
Lvl 8: DR 3/- [with a -3 penalty]
Lvl 12: DR 8/- [with -4. At this point he would have Improved Stalwart]
Lvl 16: DR 10/- [with -5]
Lvl 20: DR 10/- [with -6. The DR caps at 10 but the penalty with Combat Expertise keeps going]
Using the Armour Master archetype:
Lvl 5: DR 3/- (assuming it is heavy armour - DR 6 if it is adamantine)
Lvl 19: DR 12/- (assuming heavy armour - DR 15 if adamantine).
So the dilemma is Armour Master is better but it takes way longer to achieve. I think I want to do both, but I am looking for a second (or third) opinion on whether Stalwart and Improved Stalwart are worth having in that long stretch to level 19.
Thoughts?
Thoughts? If i was a bad guy, I'd just walk around the fortress that walks and attack the caster.
really, it seems easier, and what kind of threat are you, my slow moving heavily armored no-damage friend?
Thoughts? If i was a bad guy, I'd just walk around the fortress that walks and attack the caster.
really, it seems easier, and what kind of threat are you, my slow moving heavily armored no-damage friend?
^^^^THIS^^^^
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Oooph gotta side with the guys saying you are putting all your eggs in one basket. I good defensive character can be a fighter that has a two handed weapon and Combat Patrol to just AoO things like crazy as they try and run to the back lines.
If you want some defensive capability AND offensive capability I may recommend you look at the Phalanx fighter Archtype. You get to keep a shield and can wield a polearm in 1 hand. So it increases the range you get AoOs to make enemies thing twice about moving around you, AND you have your shield to threaten up close while you defend.
Personally the DR is nice, but you gotta find a nice balance of offense and defense.
Stalwart and Armor Master.
There's no way to artificially draw aggro so you have to do it by having threat or blocking corridors. That means you have to do enough damage or have really good positioning and decent AoO's. The Armor Master archetype removes your Weapon Training so your damage won't be great. Stalwart requires a Total Defence action so you can't attack and you don't threaten so no AoO's.
Just tank by having reasonable Con (2nd highest stat behind Str), d10 HD and good damage.
Feats to help with this:
Stand StillStep up (and successive feat tree)
Antagonize (using intimidate)
Again, if you're going to be using a Light shield or Buckler, I recommend the Crane Style line of feats, and I would recommend this if you plan to go Stalwart, as it will improve your AC and hit bonuses with Full Defense and Fighting Defensively options, give you another defense option, and syncs well with your Stalwart line. It will cost you more feats, but it is really worthwhile to have as a Fighter Tank. (Almost essential, really.)
Armor Master gives lots of DR that syncs with Adamantine, but Adamantine's benefits are limited; what good is 3 DR going to do against creatures that deal insane amounts of damage to you? What will it do against a Fireball (or other spell) where it won't save you, or help at all?
Mithril is better, because it gives you more free weight space (items made with Mithril are half the original weight), less ACP, more Max Dex, and lowers the item type it is (treated as a medium type of armor). Those are factors that have nearly no other way to improve, and make a major impact on your game plan.
Mithril is great for a lot of characters, but less shiny for straight fighters who get armor training.
Are you f***ing kidding me?
I'm currently playing a Mobile Fighter; my archetype only gets 2 ranks of Armor Training. Some Archetypes don't get any Armor Training at all.
I would forever be stuck with that -2 ACP to my skills if not for the option of Mithril, and plus the extra +2 MDB (bumping Full Plate to +5 MDB for me) helps out a lot. Sure, lowering the armor type by one category isn't flashy (unless you get Mithril medium/heavy armor in the lower levels, then it's really cool), but cutting the weight in half is very nice for those fighters who focus in stats besides "HURR DURR STRENGTH SMASH," and carrying capacity somewhat becomes an issue.
God knows if I didn't have Mithril armor, my ACP would be bogging me down like crazy, my MDB would make my need for getting Dex items quite low, and I wouldn't be able to walk around with a complete armory of weapons.
Also: Stalwart works with fighting defensively, the total defence action, and Combat Expertise.
<Snip>
So the dilemma is Armour Master is better but it takes way longer to achieve. I think I want to do both, but I am looking for a second (or third) opinion on whether Stalwart and Improved Stalwart are worth having in that long stretch to level 19.
Thoughts?
Oh, so it does. My bad. It's a pity they're not combat feats or I'd just say take them then trade them out. As is, since they're superseded by the class abilities, I recommend not to take them.
EDIT:
Mithril is great for a lot of characters, but less shiny for straight fighters who get armor training.Are you f***ing kidding me?
I'm currently playing a Mobile Fighter; my archetype only gets 2 ranks of Armor Training. Some Archetypes don't get any Armor Training at all.
straight fighters. You're taking an archetype, not playing a straight fighter.
Defensive chracters are just fine. not every monster is smart enough to avoid you in combat. Not every smart enemy should know you are so hard to hit (unless the DM constantly metagame). And if you want enemis not to ass you just take stand still.
Not every monster, no. Just all the enemies with a reasonable int and wisdom scores, above 3 for each; being facetious here but a GM has to metagame to make the challenging and fun. He's going to be a mostly stationary heavily armoured dwarf, of course the squishy, lightly armoured rogue or highly mobile outsider is going to avoid him and go for a squishier wizard or cleric.