All I can tell you is that after playing one character that dipped MMS for crane style/crane wing I now have trouble building a melee character that doesnt.
Yeah, Crane Style/Crane Wing were never meant to be accessible at low level, and the MMS broke this.
That said, you need to find two styles that really compliment one another and make the most of them. Myself, I like the Crane Style/Snake Style synergy, and that's a good place to start with a defensive (ie dex/wis based) monk build. It really makes up for not having FoB by giving you masses of attacks and excellent defences.
I tried this build for a concept character, but the loss of Flurry of Blows kept me from actually sitting down with it. You are trading a good deal of to-hit and extra attacks for extra styles. It is best for a splash as Thefurmonger suggests. I would also recommend choosing a different build and just taking Crane Style the regular way. I realize that this pushes Crane Wing back from level two to five. However, fighting defensively is going to hurt you early level if you don't have the Flurry bonuses.
If you are set on this build, make a Strength based monk. You will already have a good defense from always fighting defensively, and you save the feat that would go to Weapon Finesse. This will allow you to get maximum benefit from Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity. Dragon Style will pour some extra damage into your strikes and make you eligible for Elemental Fist to get even more damage from the few attacks you get. I wouldn't bother with Dragon's Roar.
Combat Style Master is limited and will be almost worthless by level eight. This gives it only three levels of usefulness. It sounds nice to start in a stance, but since you cannot also start out fighting defensively, Crane Style is of no use. Dragon Style and the other combat styles are no good until your turn comes around to attack. It is good for Snapping Turtle Style and little else. If you are multi-classing MMS, it may be worth taking. But this is all just my two copper.
Hmm. This is what I came up with:
Human (Vudrani) Monk (Master of Many Styles) 7
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +14
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 22, flat-footed 18 (+2 armor, +5 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 38 (7d8)
Fort +6, Ref +11, Will +10
Defensive Abilities Evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 50 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +11 (1d8+1/x2)
Special Attacks Ki Strike, Magic
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 19/21, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 16/18, Cha 8
Base Atk +5; CMB +7; CMD 27 (31 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Snake Sidewind, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (7/day) (DC 17), Weapon Finesse
Traits Bullied, Suspicious
Skills Acrobatics +15, Climb +8, Diplomacy +0, Escape Artist +15, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (history) +6, Knowledge (religion) +6, Perception +14, Ride +9, Sense Motive +17, Stealth +15, Swim +5
Languages Common, Draconic, Vudrani
SQ AC Bonus +5, Fast Movement (+20'), Fuse Style (2 styles), High Jump (+7/+27 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall 30', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue), Unarmed Strike (1d8), Wholeness of Body (7 HP/use)
Other Gear Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +2, Bracers of Armor, +2, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Handy Haversack (empty), Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Ring of Protection, +1
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Bullied +1 to hit with unarmed AoEs.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) You may make up to 6 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Take -2 penalty when fighting defensively
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+20') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
High Jump (+7/+27 with Ki point) (Ex) +7 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 30' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Snake Sidewind Gain a bonus to avoid being knocked prone, and use Sense Motive check to confirm critical hits
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (7/day) (DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wholeness of Body (7 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
This build is defensively very, very good with a great AC especially if fighting defensively - potentially up to AC32. If something attacks you, you will be able to deliver a series of AoOs on it. Problem is, if nothing attacks you...you can't actually do much other than one attack for 1d8+1 damage and maybe a stunning fist attempt. When you get to 10th level and can get agile added to your AoMF your damage will jump up nicely, and you will have two attacks by then, and you can make the most of things like Spring Attack because you aren't going to lose much by not standing around anyway.
All round, though, it's as disappointing as a core monk.
Also that is a 7th level character with 38 HP....
Thats not great, even with all that defence.
Yes, the monk's MADness strikes again! There's nothing left for Con after you pump Dex and Wis.
Hmm. This is what I came up with:
** spoiler omitted **...
why not
Ki Throw (Combat)
Your physical control and mastery of momentum allows you to throw enemies.
Prerequisites: Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: On a successful unarmed trip attack against a target your size or smaller, you may throw the target prone in any square you threaten rather than its own square. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and you cannot throw the creature into a space occupied by other creatures.
Special: A monk may gain Ki Throw as a bonus feat at 10th level. A monk with this feat can affect creatures larger than his own size by spending 1 ki point per size category difference
you get to ignore the level requirement so can get it at level 1---A third level Monk of many styles just decimated the scenario I ran with it.
edit: just saw a post by JohnF, that may be a reason not to allow the Ki throw. It may not be a prereq to be level 10 as much as it is a special ability that you can get a level 10.
I personally think that your selling Combat Style Master a little short. YOu can switch as a *free* action, which means most likely several times per round, instead of Master of Many Style's swift action which switches. You could conceivable charge with Dragon and Mantis active to try to get in a big stunning fist, then switch to a defensive package to weather the return fire, and do it every turn back and forth
Perhaps. I haven't actually played the build, but the idea of switching between stances banks on you have more than two. Considering how feat-dependent the MMS already is, I just don't see it as a good idea. By level 5, a human monk would only have six feats and three of them have already been spent on two base styles and probably Crane's Wing. If you aren't going to go strength (which few people are inclined to do), you need Weapon Finesse. This leaves two feats, and one would have to be spent on the actual Combat Style Master feat. At best, you have one more style feat, and I think I would rather just go further in my existing style trees if you are eligible.
The biggest advantage I see to Combat Style Master is preserving your Swift actions for spending Ki or the like. In this respect, I would rather just switch into the two styles I prefer in the first round and not worry about them after that. Again, thats just my two copper.
In all honesty, looking at the MMS, I'm seeing it as less and less viable given the feat requirements to just pull off two styles. It might work better at higher levels, but it really is starting to look like a two-level dip class.
I'm considering starting with a single level of fighter (unarmed archetype) and then going MoMS to grab as many style feats as possible as quickly as possible without the prereqs.
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I am interested in seeing a decent non-multiclassed Master of Many Styles build.How about a build that combines Crane & Panther Styles with Combat Patrol. The feats costs probably leave you using only those two styles, but you make up for the loss of Flurry by making tons of attacks against opponents through AoO mechanics.
Combat Patrol takes a load of feats itself, I think it's doable but not easy, I contemplated doing this with Snake Style and Combat Patrol but couldn't pull it off with all the feats I also needed for other stuff.
I'm considering starting with a single level of fighter (unarmed archetype) and then going MoMS to grab as many style feats as possible as quickly as possible without the prereqs.
That appears to be the main use for this archetype, to make non-monks better at out-doing real monks.
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There's actually some interesting synergies between snake/panther and crane to a lesser extent when it comes to the retailiatory attacks.
Snake Fang (3rd in chain) - AOO an immediate action if opponent misses you and an immediate action for another attack if you hit.
Panther chain - all three get retalitory attacks in various forms, but the second one gets you free action attacks up to your wisdom modifer each round...
So with five of the feats you take move through to the center of a crowd, hit each one of them two or three times without ever attacking and then repeat when you take a drink from your canteen or waterskin and generate more AOO's. Obviously this is better against crowds than one BBEG but it's kind of terrifying to think about getting up to 2 x (DexMod+1) AOOs + WisMod attacks in a single round. (I.e. At 18 dex and 18 wis you're looking at up to 14 attacks in a single round without flurry... and if you take your feats cleverly you could possibly be doing this by level 6 or level 7 if you're non-human.)
MoMS Monk 1 BF: Snake Style
1st level feat: Combat reflexes
Human BF: Panther Style
Monk 2 BF: Snake Sidewind
3rd: Panther Claw
5th: Panther Parry
Monk 6 BF: Snake Fang
7th: Crane Style
9th: Skill Focus(Sense motive) or Crane Wing
Monk 10th BF: Crane wing/Riposte
11th: Dodge
13th: Mobility
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I have a Strength based MoMS monk - admittedly only two levels at this stage, but with 3 levels of fighter (brawler) and two of alchemist. He's a kind of "Incredible Hulk". I may take a level or two of barbarian for extra cheesy hulking goodness.
I couldn't see any benefit of going more monk levels at this stage. I might take one or two more to get better UAS damage with a Monk's Robe. Though taking light armour with the brawler ability would probably be a better option.
My two styles are Dragon and Crane. WIth a bumped up Str, especially with a mutagen up, the to hit penalty of fighting defensively is not noticable. The extra damage using Dragon Ferocity is impressive. All in all he is quite a fun character to play but will soon be hit with the age old conundrum of enchanting his UAS.
Which kind of proves the point, Gallo, that the MoMS is a 'dip' class.
I would like to add to this discussion: a master of many styles that focuses on Tiger/Dragon Style is pretty ridiculous in terms of growing damage potential, required are feats 1 and 3 of Tiger, and 1 and 2 of Dragon; I like to "rebuild" the flurry using TWF. The build requires some defensive planning (and possibly dipping into Crane Style to round out defenses at later levels) but has good bang for buck.
Possibly a long-term build would start with Crane style then add Tiger/Dragon at mid-to-high levels.
I'm considering starting with a single level of fighter (unarmed archetype) and then going MoMS to grab as many style feats as possible as quickly as possible without the prereqs.That appears to be the main use for this archetype, to make non-monks better at out-doing real monks.
Part of the attraction is proficiency with ALL monk weapons, even the exotic ones. Otherwise, it just doesn't seem worth it to blow a feat on EWP to get to us a bo-staff.
Part of the attraction is proficiency with ALL monk weapons, even the exotic ones. Otherwise, it just doesn't seem worth it to blow a feat on EWP to get to us a bo-staff.I'm considering starting with a single level of fighter (unarmed archetype) and then going MoMS to grab as many style feats as possible as quickly as possible without the prereqs.That appears to be the main use for this archetype, to make non-monks better at out-doing real monks.
Does this archetype get proficiency with all monk weapons? The core monk doesn't (which is silly, I know).
Does this archetype get proficiency with all monk weapons? The core monk doesn't (which is silly, I know).
Yes.
According to the Unarmed Fighter Archetype on d20pfsrd:
An unarmed fighter is proficient with all monk weapons, including exotic monk weapons.
Probably a stupid question, but how do you get more than one immediate action per round to power these Panther and Snake Style feats? An immediate action uses your swift action either an unspent one or an upcoming one.
thanks
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Does this archetype get proficiency with all monk weapons? The core monk doesn't (which is silly, I know).Yes.
According to the Unarmed Fighter Archetype on d20pfsrd:
An unarmed fighter is proficient with all monk weapons, including exotic monk weapons.
Great. The unarmed fighter gets to be proficient with monk weapons the frikking monk isn't proficient with.
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I am currently building an Avatar (Last Airbender not Blue monkeys in space) style MoMS. Taking all the elemental style feats and getting elemental fist thru Dragon 2. Although the game has not started yet it seems a fairly versatile build. I rolled high stats so I am making it a high str/wis build. The point is to charge from opponent to opponent using elemental fist and dragon style and then use the third Elemental style on main opponents based on whatever thier weak save is. Not the most optimized build in the world but theoretically will be fun to play.
As a reminder to all people...remember your character is part of a team! You don't have to be great at everything! Let the fighter/barbarian beat the crap out of stuff and your casters/rangers/etc. handle range. Find something you can make your character good at and fulfill that niche in your team. Just my two cents.
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There's one series of style feats in Blood of Angels called Archon Style. The second feat lets you redirect attacks directed towards your allies to you. Combine that with Crane Style and you force someone to attack you and then miss. Problem is that this only lets you redirect one attack per turn. Fortunately Archon style is only a move action for the second feat, so use your standard action to trip them. And this lets you fight defensively for crane style!
What archetypes stack with Master of Many Styles?
Then no one takes AoO's against you, and you cry. MoMF has absolutely amazing defense, but it suffers from being front-loaded (Decreasing returns after the first two levels) and from not being able to contribute meaningfully to a fight. Like, you literally have to stare at each level of Monk after 2 and -especially- after 4 and ask yourself, "Why are you not a fighter?"
I think I actually got some combination of Dragon + Elemental + Tiger actually got pretty close-ish via the Guided Weapon Property. I think it wound up being a single attack that is like, (2d6+3d6+Wis Mod*3.5)*2 damage at level 10, maybe -3d6+Wis Mod from the -final- total depending on how Elemental Strike interacts with Tiger Claws. Assuming a Wis Mod of +8 and Ki Diversity (Dim Mak) (doable) and power attack you wind up with 0.95*103 average damage up to 10 times/day. This is about middle-of-the-road damage after TONS of investment (MoMF -> Unarmed Fighter does better). It's a funny single-target, one-shot-one-kill assassin, though.
How are you using the Guided Weapon Prop with your fists? Or are you using the Styles with a Monk Weapon or something.
Probably a stupid question, but how do you get more than one immediate action per round to power these Panther and Snake Style feats? An immediate action uses your swift action either an unspent one or an upcoming one.
thanks
Nah it's a good point and I was tired last night. Key points though: panther claw runs off free actions up to your wisdom modifier and the snake fang bonus attack runs off the immediate action (so only one,a round). However keep in mind that the Snake Fang main attack runs off your AOO's and since all it takes to trigger Snake fang is a missed attack like an AOO generated by you taking a drink of water... well you get the idea
So with that in mind you're probably not going to get that 14 attacks a round I suggested earlier, but nine attacks off a double move isn't implausible with enough opponents and high enough Wisdom/Dex (18's). The key is having enough AC to not get hit and die from the various attacks you're incurring to retaliate from.
Great. The unarmed fighter gets to be proficient with monk weapons the frikking monk isn't proficient with.Does this archetype get proficiency with all monk weapons? The core monk doesn't (which is silly, I know).Yes.
According to the Unarmed Fighter Archetype on d20pfsrd:
An unarmed fighter is proficient with all monk weapons, including exotic monk weapons.
That is absurd. Doubly absurd if it's called "Unarmed Fighter". More like "Monk Master-at-Arms".
Oh snap, I complained. It's hard not to do!
I do picture this guy swaggering into the Shaolin Temple and making off with their exotic weapons, laughing at them because they don't know how to wield them.
The great part of this archetype seems to have been overlooked "He does not need to meet the prerequisites of that feat" Meaning why would anyone take snake sidewind? You don't have to take the style feats in order because you ignore prerequisites. Honestly you don't even HAVE to take snake style to take snake fang, now you definitely should because to activate snake fang you need to be using snake style. You can take kraken wrack without throttle, thereby raising your damage to wis mod +4 without having to take the wis mod +2 feat, the only advantage of kraken throttle is you can keep casters from doing anything unless they have still + silent spell ready. Now for the wild slots you do have to meet prerequisites, which sucks for things like grabbing style and since a MoMS can't use flurry of blows you can't use grabbing style, BUT WAIT! I can ignore that prerequisite with one of my bonus feats then use a wild slot to take grabbing drag + grabbing master because you will note, grabbing drag/master don't require flurry of blows, just monk/brawler level.