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(Spoilers for the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil follow. You have been warned.)
So I've just started GM'ing RttToEE, but I'm running it in the far superior Pathfinder system instead of D&D 3 or 3.5.
The first real encounter the party is supposed to have is against a Very Young Blue Dragon - at this stage the party is level 4.
Now in D&D, a VY Blue is CR 5; in Pathfinder it's CR 7. According to the Gamemastering section an encounter 3 above average party level is "Epic" - how likely is it that the Dragon could wipe the floor with the party (obviously not how I want to kick off the campaign!)
A couple of things to point out:
- I've told the players that RttToEE is a character killing module, and even more specifically I've told them the first combat is dangerous (without telling them what it is - there's a chance they find out if they talk to the right people first)
- All of my players are very experienced, although not so much in Pathfinder in particular, and are more than willing to cut their losses and run if it's the smart thing to do
- Looking at the Dragon's stats, it appears that although it's dangerous, it's not going to be able to wipe the entire party before taking too much damage and flying off (something the Blue Dragon entry specifically says that they do)
- However, I can't find anywhere (in the SRD pages anyway) where it says "every 1d4 rounds" for the Blue Dragon's breath weapon. Is it able to use it - as a standard action, obviously - every round?
- The fact that they do list CR +3 over the APL as "Epic" and not "OMG DON'T DO THIS EVERYONE WILL DIE IN A FIRE" suggests to me that it is, occasionally, OK. Is it?
I realise that the D&D CR's for Dragons were completely out of whack and CR 7 is probably more correct, but I don't want to reduce it to a Wyrmling (CR 5) and have the party fighting what is literally a Small dragon. "Yeah, it was the size of a large dog. It was a hard encounter though!"
What are people's thoughts?
Cheers
Viperion
how many people in the party ?
The breath weapon thing is in the general entry for all True Dragons.
how many people in the party ?
And are the PCs min/maxed? An optimised party easily takes CR a couple above their level TBH.
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IME, with decently optimized* characters, a CR+3 encounter is a good main boss for a dungeon or similar thing. As an initial encounter, it'll be tough, and likely result in a shorter adventuring day (and possibly even some deaths if bad luck or poor choices get involved), but is by no means an unbeatable fight or anything.
A dragon, specifically, might be more difficult if the party's melee oriented and the Dragon decides not to enter melee, and easier if they're all ranged specialists with good saves.
*Decently optimized in this case being 'Designed to work effectively'. 16+ in their prime stat, decent saves and spell selection, etc. Very basic stuff.
It does depend on how optimized your party is obviously, and how many other encounters they have to face beforehand, but generally speaking as long as they aren't horribly built I'd happily put a party of 4-5 levels 4's up against this encounter.
The Dragon's AC isn't that high and it doesn't have a huge number of hit points, so I can't see it being a huge problem.
I'd probably throw a couple of other equal or +1 encounters against the party first to soften them up (though I do tend to run in a pretty optimized group).
Heh, yeah guess I didn't specify what they had in the party ;)
There is a gaping hole in their skill set, but assume that they have 18 (or better) in their primary stat:
Priest (Moradin/Torag)1/Rogue 3 - Trapsmith/Tank
Priest (Pelor/Sarenrae) 4
Barbarian 4 - Superstitious
Bard 4 - Arcane Duelist
Oracle 4 - Blind, Wind Mystery (Invisibility and Electricity spark)
Everyone except the Blind Oracle has ranged weapons of some kind (in fact the Barbarian has a Mighty Composite Longbow +7 which she can only use while raging, which I'm letting slide..) but I plan to run the Dragon a bit stupid and arrogant (which Blues are known for) and drop in on the party after the first Breath Weapon attack (Take Boat, I found that entry now, thanks :) )
What they don't have is arcane artillery (there was going to be another player but she dropped out). The Barbarian can do downright scary amounts of damage though.
The only other encounter they will have before this is a Giant Frog which I totally expect to do absolutely no damage whatsoever.
The terrain is in a courtyard of an abandoned and ruined Moathouse.
(Also, that's a lot of replies in a short time! You guys rock :) )
Being that your party has potentially three healers (possibly four depending on what spells the Bard has) and a Barbarian who can, by your admission, "do downright scary amounts of damage". I think your team should be ok.
In the end, if it looks like your party is taking a bit of a beating, and you're not wanting to go for the TPK quite this early in the adventure, you can always add something to the environment that gives the players an advantage.
If they die, it's their fault. The encounter is really not that hard. I hate when GMs spoon feed encounters to PCs or appear afraid to challenge a group. This is a fair encounter easily.
If I recall, dragons in 3.0-3.5 were intentionally under-CR'd by something of a nature of 2-4 CR. So the challenge was still there, theoretically.
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The thing about CR is 1 opponent is not as tough an encounter as multiples. You almost have to subtract 2 CR when it is only a single creature. Your Party are all aiming at 1 thing while it has to single out seperate opponents. I would not even hesitate to run this encounter. (I have run it before and enjoyed it quite a bit)
Here is the thing. If they are doing well, concentrate your fire on the Barbarian. If they are having a hard time, start splitting up your attacks. Spreading them around weakens your action, while concentrating strengthens them. That one tactical decision can improve or lessen the impact of the Dragon.
No don't hold back from the initial breath weapon but you'll gauge quickly how well the dragon's breath did.
If it was overwhelming then you can "Play" with the party. Maybe do some light strike and run's or maybe charge the Barbarian (leaving yourself in a spot that will let him unload on you and buy the others some time to regroup, heal and or torch from afar).
If the party laughs at your breath weapon, do not charge, but leave yourself where the Barbarian can charge you, so you can unload a full round attack or two on him (trust me he'll feel that)
If the Breath Weapon is an epic fail, regroup yourself, Time to target the Oracle, the Bard, or the Rogue solo and give them the full rounds you might have used on the Barbarian. Bonus points if you can down (read 2-3 points negative not dead hopefully) someone before the rest of the party can really catch up to you. Put the fear in the support ;)
It's all in knowing when to pull your punches and spread them out, move and attack, or "position" for a better next round vs. when it is time to make one of them pay (ie turn up the heat a little)
Good luck!
Those are some very good tips Brutesquad07! This isn't even my question and I feel as if I should be taking notes ;)
That is fantastic advice BruteSquad :) Thanks!
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Something else to consider: hard encounters loaded up front are easier for the party because they have all of their resources available (full hp, full spells, etc.). If they have to rest and regroup after this one encounter, that's okay.
Another tactic you should strongly consider for the dragon: the dreaded grapple-fly-drop.
Make the drop from these heights according to roughly how many hp the character has:
<20 hp => 50 ft. drop
~25 hp => 70 ft. drop
~35 hp => 100 ft. drop
~45 hp => 130 ft. drop
~55 hp => 160 ft. drop
(Don't ask your characters how many hp they have, just glance at their sheets at the beginning of the session and make a note.)
This should be enough damage to take that character out of the fight, but might not actually kill him.
Well Curse of the Crimson Throne sent my 3 4th level pcs against 4 crs
This particular encounter was the first time I had ever killed a player character at my table top and it is a frequently told story by my players to date. That poor cleric was fried by the breath weapon late in the fight, in the same round another players weapon was destroyed by that exact same breath attack(natural 1 on reflex).
The encounter was finally ended with a critical hit to the dragon with the fallen clerics weapon by the same player who lost their own weapon a few turns earlier. They buried the poor fallen cleric with his weapon in a nearby grove after the fight, using the dragon's severed head as a grave maker.
This is probably one of the most memorable encounters of Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. At least to my players!
Update: Had this fight last night. The dragon came out and breathed on 3 of the 5, then again the next round (rolled a 1 on recharge time) and got two. It landed and laid into the Barbarian for a round, but then got damaged enough that it tried to escape and was cut down by AoO's.
Couple of questions:
If you have a fly speed, can you Withdraw "up"? (I assume yes)
When you withdraw, the square you start in doesn't count for AoO's. How high would the dragon be when the PC's could make their AoO?
The situation was like this:
. S
. K
.
. D
. G
Where S=Surgat (Cleric of Pelor), K = Korag (Barbarian with a Glaive), D = Dragon, and G=Grumund (Cleric/Rogue of Moradin).
K and G are flanking due to the Glaive's reach. Could the dragon use the withdraw action, flying to:
. S
. K
.
.
. GD
As it's first move, thus only letting Grumund have an AoO against it? What actually happened is that it went straight up, got AoO's from both Grumund and Korag, and was reduced to somewhere around -20 hp....
Basically, I screwed up, but the party now has a Dragon corpse, so they're happy ;) I don't mind, and it makes a cool story :) I'm just wondering for future fights where it may be important for an NPC with a Fly speed to get away.
Cheers all
Viperion
Check out the information for the Fly skill. It lists "Fly up at greater than 45° angle" as a DC 20 fly check. The Young Blue is only getting +8 on his fly checks, so the chances are a little lower than 50/50 that he could pull it off.
@Anetra: According to this PF SRD entry the Very Young Blue has a +12 Fly (although I didn't check the math, I just used it as-is), so it only needed an 8 for a vertical take off.
Edit Just realised that's because the Very Young is Medium while the Young is Large and therefore gets penalties on it's Fly skill; I think it's pretty funny that it gets worse at flying as it gets older :D
@Caderyn: Yeah, it would have been trivial to make the encounter unwinnable for the PC's but where's the fun in that? This dragon has been tormenting people for the last week or so and had got cocky. It was cut down in two rounds, so didn't have a lot of chance to realise it's mistake ;)
So to restate my question, if it had flown 45degrees back and 45degrees up as a withdraw action, only Grumund would have had an AoO? Or possibly not even then, since the dragon is now above him?