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So effectively your PG is not a PG, because any decent PG gamer ask himself "And what do i do, when a sleep/deep sleep/confusion/... spell is thrown at me or if i face confusion gaze/similar stuff? How can i or at least my party still survive?"
Depends how you define PG, really. From what it sounds like, they're dealing with a character that blows holes in physical encounters but crumples to a heap when hit with a will save; unfortunately the DM went with confusion (dominate or charm might well get the same results) which then turned this wrecking ball against the party. He's powergamed against physical opponents, but left himself a gaping weakness... one that I'm guessing the GM does not target very often. (That's the real difference between optimized and powergamed, IMO - an optimized character is focused on improving their strong points while minimizing their weaknesses, while the typical "powergamed broken character" usually is very good at one single thing - which happens to be the one single thing the GM throws out most often - but lousy at everything else - which the GM rarely exploits.)
I'll agree though that this guy probably isn't thinking about his teammates at all, but rather concentrating on his escalating arms race with the GM. I'd estimate the GM is similarly not paying any worthwhile amount of attention to the rest of the party and focusing on tossing out stuff that can beat this one guy.
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I'd say just talk with the powergamers if their characters are really so powerful that they're being disruptive. If he's unwilling to either tone his character down or help the other players make their characters more powerful, then you'll either need to slowly weaken him by giving him weaker items than the other players or have him leave the game.
I tend to be a bit of a powergamer, so I occasionally ask my GM if he wants me to tone back any aspects of my current build. I tend to feel that I need to make my characters as powerful as possible to survive what the GM throws at me, so if I'm told that I need to make my character less powerful it will actually make me happy because that means I can free up a few feats for 'fun' abilities.
Thank you! That's pretty much confirmation for what I was trying to say.
That is: you can reason with some people. You don't need to kick anyone out of the game, except as a last resort.
Conversely, you can't reason with some people. Best to dismiss them politely and be done with it.
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Play E6! It really cuts down on a lot of powergaming.
But I think the main thing would be to know the audience although this can back fire if everyone wants something different. Playing with a lot of power gamers isn't too bad. Playing with only one and some new players can be a problem.
In that case it comes down to communication and this can be a lost cause as a lot of "gamers" are poor at communication....
Powergaming? Tsk tsk, this issue will never die. As with all aspects of life, some people will perform better than others, or have the desire to do so. As long as all people are using the same rules set, its just pointless to try an hamper players with restricted feats, etc. Give two people the same character with the same stats and one of them is likely to utilize it better than the other. Give it up!
Now, that having been said, may I share what my DM of some 20+ years does to maintain "game balance." He simply does the following: if a player comes up with some "unbeatable" combo it only makes sense that word of the tactic,power, etc spreads and everyone starts employing it. Even the villians. Especially the villians!
I came up with a 1300+ damage attack that didnt allow a save or SR in 3.5 and NEVER, EVER used it because of my DMs logical policy.(Matter of fact I didnt even tell him about it for like 5 years)
I myself find that the 'core" hardcover PF books greatly restrict powergaming (over 3.5 at least) In addition, it is far easier to build a nearly invincible monster than an overpowered pc. Our DM can easily humble any overconfident players, though he usually does it far more subtley by putting th pc in a situation where their ultimate power, etc is almost useless.
Anyway, the surest way to approach obtaining any sort of game balance iin a campaign is by gettinhg more experince as a dm. There is no quick way to gain that experience, and no substitute for it. Just practice, practice, practice. Just dont lose your love of the game while you are getting there.
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LOL now I really wanna read that removed post
I saw it; you're not missing out or anything.
Mummies are stuffed with sacred holy incense and flowers. Does that count? Hah, that would be funny. A halfling mummy wizard or sorcerer. Talk about bizarre. Might make for a funny gish.
Hm, let's see. Venerable is +3, halfling is +2, lich is +2. That would be +7 Charisma or or +3.5 modifier. Not the end of the world, but looking way better due to losing few levels, and you get way better modifiers. The venerable bit kind of crushes your Dexterity though (-4 net total, so -2 AC and Reflex). The +1 to all saves and +4 to stealth is pretty cool though. Gnomes might be amusing liches too. I'm really not sure the +1 CR for being a noble drow is worth the bump to Dexterity and other mental stats. Halfling definitely seems better, and won't delay your getting to better spells as much.
But yeah, why be a noble drow when you could just be the normal drow? They're better due to lack of CR adjustment. Heck, noble drow make terrible NPCs due to their LA too. Just shoveling XP at players for something barely better than the norm. :P
Wait, undead accrue physical penalties for age categories? I thought they only received mental bonuses, since they're immortal and their bodies don't deteriorate under normal circumstances. I guess they'd have the penalty if they were already venerable before becoming undead, but what if they were still young when they were converted?
Seems a bit unlikely in the case of becoming a lich, but it could happen for a type of undead that requires another person's intervention.
Eh, I figured he meant beginning the game as venerable and then becoming a lich. My bad. I'm used to starting games at lower levels and working your way up, so I was thinking about it differently. Usually it takes a lot of time to become venerable unless you begin that way, so unless you're in a sandbox campaign and everyone is else is long-lived then you're not likely to get there during most games.
But I suppose if you rolled a character high enough to be a lich that would be a different thing. But that's like minimum level 13, IIRC; and you'd begin with like no wealth. :(
OMG! Freakin hilarious, Puck!
I dunno; there's gotta be a surgeon on the board and apparently that's outpatient surgery now days.Fix the player, not the game.The latter might be easier than the former! :)
The latter might be easier than the former! :)
Trust me; it wasn't even lulzy.
I'm just going to chime in as a player who's played alongside another power gamer, where his essential mindset was, "I'm going to break this."
For me as a player it was off putting to have this other guy that's uber strong, killing damn near everything in site. He wasn't all that great at roleplaying and of course you don't have your character mouth off to him, because he could easily split you in 2.
However, throughout all of that, I still had my chance to shine. The DM found something that I was slightly better at and gave me the chance to use it. If the PG was awesome at melee and I good at range, there were some game important fliers to take down.
Also, as a player, I wouldn't discount role-playing aspects. If the PG character isn't good socially due to dumping stats, he should have to deal with the consequences by being part of a very important conversations. The king wants the entire parties opinions on the beauty of his not so pleasant looking queen? Lets see if he can keep himself out of the dungeon.
Essentially what I'm saying, from a player's standpoint, is power gamers are fine, as long as you can find ways for the non-power gamers to shine in important game moments.
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You know...I'd think by now the people that post the same things as others would figure out that this game is more than just who can do the most damage fastest.
Take the time to go read all the class guides...see how many of them focus not on damage but control.
I'm surprised it took 3 pages for the OP to come out with his real intentions here today. If you want to vent, cool. But, this isn't the place to do it. Some of the people posting in this thread could be helping someone else make a character or tweak something to make their game more enjoyable. Your GM made LOTS of TERRIBLE decisions...allowing advanced races, ramping the health and damage of the enemies, using spells to turn the murderous Lizardman against the party instead of simply putting him to sleep, allowing you to lead the game instead of vice versa, etc.
The truth is...it sounds like aside from the race that player just played the game right. Can I say this for certain without seeing his character sheet? Nope. But thats again for the GM to be checking not me. He made probably the simplest character out there...and surprise surprise its a barbarian that does...lots of damage. Thats what the class does. Its all the class does!
I see zero powergaming here. I see a smart player that took the game and made a good character.
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To echo what Evil Lincoln and a few others have said, I have found it more helpful in our game to have a "No A$$ling and No obnoxious Rules Lawyer" rules rather than try to stop power-gaming. Unless you are all about the theatrical re-enactment of your character discussing his new level with your mentor, everyone wants to power game a little bit. :)
The social gaming convenant at our table is:
- Don't deliberately try to break the GM's game. You and I both know if thats what you are doing, so don't unless you want a bludgeoning with the nerf bat. Stretching the bounds is one thing, poking the bear or GM with a stick repeatedly is not.
- Don't hog more than your share of the spotlight when its not an adventure built around your character. Killing everything while the party watches falls into this category.
- Don't trample on someone else's niche repeatedly. This is the worse offense I usually see, someone min-maxing for a secondary strength and doing a better job than someone in the party. Yes, I could use Darwin's Law to resolve this, however I don't because my last rule is:
- Don't ruin the game for everyone else.
Wow this post filled up fast! I am a Pathfinder gamer/GM all the way (yeah D&D 3.75!) As with any game, the rules are just a guideline and the GM has final say. Besides, and I don't know if it has been touched upon, if you try and pit the crew against something that only the min/maxer can handle then the rest of the team is screwed when they throw a fit and decide not to play. Then again there is always the wrath of the gods or a Wil save that they can't pass...so I guess the suggestion to the quest for a suggestion is high level suggestion.
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I don't really see the need to powergame NPCs and encounters to deal with powergaming players. Generally my GMing arsenal doesn't really change based on the PCs, unless you consider assigning different feats to creatures to be greatly power gaming the system (and honestly, swapping Weapon Focus for Iron Will isn't exactly unfair).
Last I checked, it's usually not that hard to steamroll PCs with entirely within CR appropriate enemies no matter how power-gamey the PCs are. O.o
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The last time I had a power gamer that ticked off the rest of the party I had a simple solution. I separated him from the party and sent doppelgangers that were impersonating the other party members against him. This was the best answer for the situation seeing as how the rest of the party got to play the gangers who were impersonating them.
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That is really quite inventive. Did the dopps tear him apart, and was there much rejoicing?
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I usually control them by making players wear those shock collars. If they get out of hand, I just hit the button. Of course, there was the nasty incident where I kept hitting the wrong button, but he has almost quit twitching. :P
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My personal prefs? This list:
1. Dont ban feats.
2. Don't use house rules that alter a main rule. It starts a slippery slope that makes people feel the game is arbitrary.
3. If 2 isnt being followed have the house rules written down with a small justification so everyone can see why. 'I just dont like it' doesnt cut it for me.
4. 20 point buy with only 1 stat at 8 or lower.
5. Let players know from the beginning that you have final editorial decisions on everything to maintain cohesion and balance. It should be something of a collaborative process however.
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A nasty character that's way too good at fighting and has a lousy Will save? Why Confusion, making him attack the other PCs (which the player may "secretly" enjoy)?
I mean, from an enemy standpoint it's good tactics, but if the DM is on the side of the other characters, he could do better. Hold Monster paralyzes the offending character; he doesn't get to play for several combat rounds (much longer OOC). When he starts to complain, that's when the Coup de Grace attempts start. This approach doesn't punish the other players. If the offending player wants to be rescued, he depends on the other players, which could be very instructive.
Dumping your Will save is for amateur bullies.
Anyway, do you really want to make an enemy of the entire party? I mean, everyone has to sleep at some point...
My personal prefs? This list:
1. Dont ban feats.
2. Don't use house rules that alter a main rule. It starts a slippery slope that makes people feel the game is arbitrary.
3. If 2 isnt being followed have the house rules written down with a small justification so everyone can see why. 'I just dont like it' doesnt cut it for me.
4. 20 point buy with only 1 stat at 8 or lower.
5. Let players know from the beginning that you have final editorial decisions on everything to maintain cohesion and balance. It should be something of a collaborative process however.
1) I beg to differ. Some feats are just worded that badly that it's better to throw them out than to try and discuss them. (Antagonize, anyone?)
2) What 'slippery slope' are you referring to? If I do Houserules (note: I do), I communicate them clearly before character creation.4) Depends on the overall level you want to get to, and your players. Currently, I have a '20 points, plus Boon and Trait' group - and none of them has gone into atrocious minmaxing.
5) Should go without saying. The GM is the final arbiter of pretty much anything. However, this is not a carte blanche to do pretty much whatever he pleases.
IF you really want me to I'll post the whole character I will but, this was a damn good description of what I could do if I didnt feel like I had to hold back in a game... http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz616v?Spear-wielding-warrior-builds#9 as I mentioned... my character is OP also... I just didnt abuse it."15+ vorpal at 11th level?"
1. Can you post both character sheets?
2. Do you mean the weapon was a +15 weapon which should have made it epic or do you mean he had a +15 to hit?
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IF you really want me to I'll post the whole character I will but, this was a damn good description of what I could do if I didnt feel like I had to hold back in a game... http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz616v?Spear-wielding-warrior-builds#9 as I mentioned... my character is OP also... I just didnt abuse it."15+ vorpal at 11th level?"
1. Can you post both character sheets?
2. Do you mean the weapon was a +15 weapon which should have made it epic or do you mean he had a +15 to hit?
1. He won't. Asked like 4 times thus far.
2. He works in extremes that don't actually have any core backing, so I wouldn't be surprised if this was just another random number he is tossing out.
To baalbamoth...based on what you posted...he should be doing 5 times the damage you do. He is a 2H wielding Lizardfolk Barbarian focused on criting and doing damage. You are a 1H Shielded Fighter/Monk Hybrid (not 100% how this works but I am sure you are breaking rules yourself) that focuses on Trips and AOOs. So congratulations your definition of "powergaming" is doing more damage than a Phalanx fighter.
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I don't know. That's just fun. I game my DPS PFS Magus a negative will save just for the fun of getting some PVP in the future when I get mind controlled. Good times.
Then again, not everyone shares your definition of 'PvP = fun'.
it was on the magus opt thread, they were talking about using the magus ability to add vorpal to a keen weapon when your speced for crit range. I took it to mean you back up any 15 and cut the BBEG's head off. sounded pretty damn OP to me...
I dont have anything as PDF, I work nights and I'm ready to crash but I'll post my sheet later tonight, and see if the other guy still has his dead character and wants to give me his copy...
You have a link to the magus thread? I can't seem to find it.
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lol he wasnt doing "more dammage" he was doing like 5x my damage, and I was playing a pretty well built fighter. but that wasnt what was upsetting, those other things... ya know about ending the encounters in two rounds, nearly killing the party when he failed the wil save, having the whole party nearly die because of a lucky crit against him... those were the upsetting parts.I don't know. That's just fun. I game my DPS PFS Magus a negative will save just for the fun of getting some PVP in the future when I get mind controlled. Good times.
He doesn't realize that those statements are contradictory. He gets upset at a guy for "powergaming" but if the other player was doing so he'd have taken levels in Paladin to prevent the low saves, and in reality the bold statements were 100% the GMs fault not the player's. Even ending the encounters in 2 rounds is completely the GMs fault..."Oh you killed those guys well the sounds of battle brings in twice that many more!" I just can't understand what this guy is trying to accomplish...convince us that the other guy is a powergamer or vent that he just isn't having fun playing the character he built.
I don't know. That's just fun. I game my DPS PFS Magus a negative will save just for the fun of getting some PVP in the future when I get mind controlled. Good times.Then again, not everyone shares your definition of 'PvP = fun'.
PvP doesn't have to be lethal, and character tension can be built especially well by events that create a little harmless tension between mature players.
Interesting relationships are defined by tension.