Is Whirlwind Attack worth the 5 feats it takes to acquire?
What classes is it worth it for? What classes is not not worth it?
No.
I tried to make a fighter around this, it was frustrating. You really can't set up to do it because it takes 2 rounds, 1 of which everything will be beating on you... which will be followed by your party members killing everything you'd like to hit.
*flails arms around * danger will robinson, danger!
I think in most cases the answer would be no, its a bit of a trap feat. If it didnt have a Combat Expertise requirement I would say that it would be good for two handed fighters dealing damage to many low-mid hp creatures, but for most fighters, int is not a primary stat and therefore wont be sought, barring many fighters from the feat. The feat tax (5, that's alot) also make this an undesirable investment for a relatively limited and situational payout, whereas something like Power Attack will see much more mileage.
I've never seen anyone actually take it.
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As a GM I've used it to great effect with NPCs to really put the fear into the PCs. Of course, those characters always died. :P
That's the thing about it. This feat REQUIRES you to be in an extremely poor strategic position: surrounded. Better not to be in that place in the first place. You live longer.
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Our party has a new character: a minotaur who uses a reach weapon and has whirlwind attack. In a recent session, the GM threw about 50 skeleton archers at us. He took them out in two rounds. I was disappointed because he only left three or four for me. He was disappointed because there was nothing to eat when he was done, just lots of toothpicks. The GM just shook his head and sighed.
As Ravingdork said, you have to be surrounded to use the feat. He jumped over the first row of skeletons in order to be surrounded.
What were they? Humanoid skeletons? You would have to be a minotaur with at least two class levels (fighter?) in order to have all of the feats for whirlwind attack. That means your party was, what? Level 5 at the lowest?
Unless they were suped up skeletons, I don't see them as being too much of a threat against a level 5 party (especially one with a minotaur fighter wielding a pole arm).
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Even as a DM with a player with this feat i would specifically try to throw hordes of mooks at him. Either the mooks were so weak that the party killed them in between the fighters turns or the mooks were so strong that they'd lay a serious beatdown on the guy in between his turns.
Mobile Fighter makes the best use of it.
If all the Pre-Reqs are 'dead weight', then yeah it sucks.
But many builds already USE Combat Expertise and the other Pre-Reqs,
so for those it isn't a '5 feat investment' it's just whatever on top of what you already have.
Reach Weapons/larger sizes/Lunge/etc are definitely large synergists with this.
Combat Patrol overlaps somewhat in utility, while being more broad in usability (IMHO).
dodge and mobility have use, spring attack is just about worthless in pathfinder, but whirlwind attack mixed with greater trip and a reach weapon... man thats some serious beatdown.
i would only go for this feat if i was playing a combat patrol fighter.
lore warden archetype makes it less of a pain in the ass, because you get C.Expertise for free.
Dimension Door/Teleport tactics also work well with it...
But honestly, I much more prefer flexibility/adaptability in abilities,
and the Full Round Action doesn't really help it either considering Status Conditions can prevent you from doing that.
i would only go for this feat if i was playing a combat patrol fighter.
how so? you can't do both at the same time.
or do you just use combat patrol when you can't use whirlwind, and use the combat patrol movement and attacks(trips) to set yourself up for a whirlwind? that could be OK... but i dont' see it outshining what you can do with a bunch of other combat abilities, which will be more broadly useful anyways...???
Is Whirlwind Attack worth the 5 feats it takes to acquire?
No.
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I've never played in a campaign where we frequently had to wade through crowds of smallish creatures at mid to high levels. So I vote "no".
i would only go for this feat if i was playing a combat patrol fighter.how so? you can't do both at the same time.
or do you just use combat patrol when you can't use whirlwind, and use the combat patrol movement and attacks(trips) to set yourself up for a whirlwind? that could be OK... but i dont' see it outshining what you can do with a bunch of other combat abilities, which will be more broadly useful anyways...???
combat patrol is a great feat in its own right. so if youre going to invest dodge and mobility into combat patrol, you may as well invest 2 more feats to also be able to wirlwind is what i was saying.
now a potion of enlarge person + reach weapon + lunge means you will get x number of attacks. in just about every game ive played in the big bad guy at the end of the dungeon summons, or just has, atleast 2 minnions at its side. in most fights a wirlwind attack could net 5+ attacks which is more then a level 20 barbarian with pounce could do.
so like i said, if i was taking combat patrol already, then i would invest the 2 extra feats for WW.
Is Whirlwind Attack worth the 5 feats it takes to acquire?
What classes is it worth it for? What classes is not not worth it?
Its absolutely amazing, but only for Fighters.
At 4th level, my Lore Warden Fighter can make a whirlwind attack with a Reach weapon, taking a 5' step during the action and theoretically make 22 attacks at full BAB. That's 2 levels before everyone else gets their second iterative.
At 6th level, when I add Lunge to the mix, I'm capable of attacking 42 squares around me. Now, obviously you aren't going to have THAT many foes around you, but if you're only making two attacks at full BAB at 4th level, you're way ahead of the game. I can usually get at least three in everything but Boss fights.
Then, at 11th level I add Dazing Assault to the mix. So now you're making a full BAB attack -5 against everyone within 15', all of whom have to make saves or be rendered more or less helpless.
Obviously its not appropriate for every situation, but you have the combo by 4th level and plenty of feats afterwards to do different things with your Fighter and I've done amazing things with it (Lore Warden + Fauchard + Combat Reflexes + Whirlwind Attack + Power Attack + Improved Trip & Tripping Strike). Meanwhile, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack and Combat Expertise all have uses in and of themselves.
I also used the hell out of it for my Greatsword Weaponmaster.
Almost always, no. Mobility sucks, as does Expertise. Dodge is an ok feat. Spring Attack is a trap, you shouldn't be using it if you want to meaningfully contribute, and if you need to use it to survive in melee then you fail at being a fighter forever.
Others have basically covered what it needs to work. DM accomodating it w/ the right encounters is the biggest requirement. From there, you need lunge, reach weapon, knowledge of the 5 ft step rules (YES, you CAN 5 ft step in between the WWA to extend your death radius, you would not believe how many people do not know this or try to argue otherwise!), being enlarged, at a bare minimum. Mobile Fighter's level 11 ability makes it much more viable. Combining it with Dazing Assault also makes it more viable.
These days Great Cleave + Greater Cleaving Finish make Whirlwind Attack look just plain sad.
but whirlwind attack mixed with greater trip and a reach weapon... man thats some serious beatdown.
Doesn't work, WWA nixes your extra attacks from Greater Trip.
But all in all, Cleave gets you 2 attacks and a move action to position yourself, with 1 prerequisite that you were going to take anyway.
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Its usefulness is extremely situational, and while it's appropriate for specific builds (anti-gang kill, mook control, arena shows,headlong charges into enemy territory) I would not recommend it for general use.
Unless you know beforehand what kind of combat you'll encounter with some frequency, it's more a DM tool to scare PCs from capitalizing melee action economy against a single opponent.
Almost always, no. Mobility sucks, as does Expertise. Dodge is an ok feat. Spring Attack is a trap, you shouldn't be using it if you want to meaningfully contribute, and if you need to use it to survive in melee then you fail at being a fighter forever.
Others have basically covered what it needs to work. DM accommodating it w/ the right encounters is the biggest requirement. From there, you need lunge, reach weapon, knowledge of the 5 ft step rules (YES, you CAN 5 ft step in between the WWA to extend your death radius, you would not believe how many people do not know this or try to argue otherwise!), being enlarged, at a bare minimum. Mobile Fighter's level 11 ability makes it much more viable. Combining it with Dazing Assault also makes it more viable.
I think that the belief that you HAVE to be Enlarged and HAVE to have a reach weapon to make the feat(s) worthwhile is a myth. As I said, you can get WWA at 4th level as a Fighter, and with any two-handed weapon that is a HUGE advantage, being able to deal significant damage if not solo-shot more than one foe every round, whether they are adjacent or not. It might be two, it might be three it might be five, but its a very big deal prior to say level 11. Sure its advantage is lessened over time, but then you have so many other feats to work with you can do a lot of other things by the time you level up.
Also, my Lore Warden takes the trait Threatening Defender and uses Combat Expertise every time he uses Know Thy Enemy and it makes him almost unhittable. Fighters get such a high attack bonus that being able to increase their AC at its expense doesn't seem like a waste to me - especially in instances of Whirlwind Attack when 1) you get to use your full BAB and 2) you're more vulnerable to flanking and face more attackers.
but whirlwind attack mixed with greater trip and a reach weapon... man thats some serious beatdown.
Doesn't work, WWA nixes your extra attacks from Greater Trip.
But all in all, Cleave gets you 2 attacks and a move action to position yourself, with 1 prerequisite that you were going to take anyway.
Whirlwind has one advantage that Cleave can't quite match though - you get to attack everybody even if you miss someone along the line of attacks.
...not that fighters miss often, but even a 5% chance of not getting your next 4 attacks is a HUGE chance compared to getting all 5 attacks no matter how they turn out (numbers used only as an example.)
Your targets also HAVE to be adjacent. WWA affects a much larger area, especially when you figure in a 5' step in the middle of it.
Is Whirlwind Attack worth the 5 feats it takes to acquire?
What classes is it worth it for? What classes is not not worth it?
Standard Human Two-Handed Fighter
1st - Power Attack1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack, swap Cleave for Whirlwind Attack
5th - Furious Focus
6th - Lunge
Lore Warden Fighter
1st - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
2nd - Combat Expertise
3rd - Combat Reflexes
4th - Spring Attack, swap Cleave for Whirlwind Attack
5th - Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fauchard
6th - Lunge
I fail to understand why this is part of the Combat Expertise AND the Spring Attack feat trees. It has nothing to do with neither.
Honestly, I would see that more as a Power Attack feat, because, oh I don't know, you swing your weapon like a crazed maniac and hit everyone you ?!? What does it have to do with being smarter or moving around the battlefield ?
So no, it's not worth it... unless you can deal a truckload of damage in a single attack, like having a whip with a permanent persistent intensified <i>shocking grasp</i> on it that discharges on every strike.