Ive always wanted to make one, but there aren't any archetypes or feats that offer benefit to double weapons.
Does anyone ever actually use Double weapons?
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Ive always wanted to make one, but there aren't any archetypes or feats that offer benefit to double weapons.
Does anyone ever actually use Double weapons?
The biggest advantages that the double-weapons:
1) The double-weapon only only requires one set of feats for Weapon Focus and Specialization, unlike weapon/shield or longsword/shortsword, for example.
2) The double weapon can be used two-handed when you can only make a single attack (eg when you are charging, or making an AoO. This gives you full 1.5xSTR bonuses, which you wouldn't get if you use two weapons and have to make that single attack with a one-handed weapon.
You might want to consider looking at Ranger, so that you don't have to focus on STR and DEX in order to be successful, although you will have AC and feat issues going the Ranger route.
There are some archetypes that can certainly be beneficial to a double weapon user:
1) Mobile Fighter
2) Two-weapon Warrior (it specifically mentions that it works with double weapons in the description)
3) Weapon Master
Those are just the fighter ones. I'm sure there are others that can work well too. Are there any specific double weapons that you are looking at? Sometimes there are options that aren't as obvious as archetypes (races, feats, etc).
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the funny thing is that is you care about RAw over what the writers wanted, you get 1.5 strength when fighting as twf. mind you most dms wont let it fly, but there is no rule in the crb that forces the damage to be treated as a light and one handed weapon. it is still concidered a 2 handed weapon while twfing with it.
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the funny thing is that is you care about RAw over what the writers wanted, you get 1.5 strength when fighting as twf. mind you most dms wont let it fly, but there is no rule in the crb that forces the damage to be treated as a light and one handed weapon. it is still concidered a 2 handed weapon while twfing with it.
Uh, no...?
Double Weapons: A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
EDIT: My biggest beef with double weapons is whether or not they can be wielded with one hand or not.
James Jacobs seems to think so, but even then it seems dubious...
So let's expand the entire quote:
Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
According to this there are three ways to wield double weapons:
1) As two weapons, treat it as such
2) As a two-handed weapon, treat it as such
3) As a one-handed weapon, treat it as such
We know that the attack modifier are not in question so let's look at the damage modifiers:
Damage
If your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal.Damage reduces a target's current hit points.
Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.
Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
So now we can see that there are three ways we are dealing damage:
1) As two-weapons, we have a primary and an off-hand weapon now so we use the appropriate rule
2) As two-handed weapon, we use the appropriate rule
3) As one-handed weapon, we use the appropriate rule
You can do whatever you want in your own games but the rules don't support your position.
ah i see, my crb (page 141) has no second comma and changes the sentence to mean something different.
so in my book it looks like:
"Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon."
makes it mean only the attack penelties are affected.
comma added!
I had a character idea for our kingmaker game that uses a double weapon.
Half-orc with the orc weapon expertise (thug) to deal normal damage + 1 point of nonlethal with the orc double axe (the only orc weapon).
As you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon you can activate the enforcer feat to make a free intimidate check, to demoralize your foe for 1 round (make him shaken).
To get TWF without high dex I made him Ranger (falconer) 2/ then went unbreakable fighter 4 (I needed a level 6 PC)
To get more out of the bird companion I got from falconer I took boon companion.
I ended up with a nice build that can deal damage and in addition make foes shaken, who has an animal companion (bird) and a nice bite attack for situations, in which he can't or don't want to use his big weapon.
With the (half-)orc bonus to intimidate, a battle mask, the dominator trait and my maxed ranks in intimidate I was well prepared even with a low cha, making it unnessesary to take intimidating prowess.
According to this there are three ways to wield double weapons:
1) As two weapons, treat it as such
2) As a two-handed weapon, treat it as such
3) As a one-handed weapon, treat it as such
3) is covered by an FAQ... and you can't normally use a double weapon as an one-handed weapon.
3) is covered by an FAQ... and you can't normally use a double weapon as an one-handed weapon.According to this there are three ways to wield double weapons:
1) As two weapons, treat it as such
2) As a two-handed weapon, treat it as such
3) As a one-handed weapon, treat it as such
If you're a larger creature using a smaller double weapon you could.
Orc, the second comma is in the PRD as I post so I'm assuming that's the state of the art.
... but the rules don't support your position.Are there some definitions of 'use' and wield' I missed? You could say that when you are "using" a double ended weapon as two weapons that you are technically "wielding" it with two hands (because you can only use one end if you 'wield' it in one hand under the equipment rule), but you are not 'wielding it two-handed' - you are 'using' it as if you were wielding two one-handed weapons. "Wielding two-handed" is a technique which can be applied to get the 11/2 strength bonus, merely because you are using two hands on a double weapon to use both ends does not mean you are "wielding it two-handed."
I'm not getting into a game of semantics. You can do whatever you want in your own games. The rules do not support your position. If you want to play with words and make the rules say other things, go for it. Just remember that I'm not part of that game.
If you're a larger creature using a smaller double weapon you could.3) is covered by an FAQ... and you can't normally use a double weapon as an one-handed weapon.According to this there are three ways to wield double weapons:
1) As two weapons, treat it as such
2) As a two-handed weapon, treat it as such
3) As a one-handed weapon, treat it as such
Yes in that case you could, however that wasn't included in the original statement.
Just saying, if you get full strength bonus on your first attack and half strength bonus on your second attack, that equals strength and a half.
Yes in that case you could, however that wasn't included in the original statement.If you're a larger creature using a smaller double weapon you could.3) is covered by an FAQ... and you can't normally use a double weapon as an one-handed weapon.According to this there are three ways to wield double weapons:
1) As two weapons, treat it as such
2) As a two-handed weapon, treat it as such
3) As a one-handed weapon, treat it as such
That was never my intent. I wasn't going to go into detail on the different ways and reasons why someone would use a weapon a certain way. I was just showing that each way to use the weapon has a way the damage is calculated. I was leaving it up to the reader to use the appropriate method for their character.
I'm surprised nobody has brought up the Thunder and Fang feat, which allows (after all the prereqs are taken) someone to use a specific 2h weapon and specific 1h weapon as a 1h weapon and a light offhand. After all the calculations are done this offers the person wielding the earthbreaker and klar a chance to do -1/-1 to their attacks. Pretty nifty if you are willing to go down that route to use a bigger weapon in one hand than what would normally be allowed, then get an offhand weapon considered light as well as retaining the AC bonus to the offhand weapon/shield.
I'm surprised nobody has brought up the Thunder and Fang feat, which allows (after all the prereqs are taken) someone to use a specific 2h weapon and specific 1h weapon as a 1h weapon and a light offhand. After all the calculations are done this offers the person wielding the earthbreaker and klar a chance to do -1/-1 to their attacks. Pretty nifty if you are willing to go down that route to use a bigger weapon in one hand than what would normally be allowed, then get an offhand weapon considered light as well as retaining the AC bonus to the offhand weapon/shield.
The feat says you treat the Earthbreaker and Klar combination as a double weapon. Based on that, I'd say that you are more linking the two together, so it looks like a double-weapon. Not a mechanical thing, but image wise makes sense to me. YOu have your Klar attached to your off-hand arm, and use that hand as well as your primary hand to hold the Earthbreaker. So it looks like you have a bladed lizard skull for your left hand and are holding your Hammer with both.
Human ranger gets it at Lv3, taking WF for each at level 1, TWF as a bonus feat, and T&F at 3,
You get a 2d6/1d6, x3/x2 double weapon that grants a +1 shield bonus to AC that stacks with Shield Focus and maybe two weapon defense. 3 feats for a pretty cool weapon
Yep, pretty cool weapon combo. I will have to try it out with a character when I get a chance. I'm too far into my current 2h fighter to backtrack and go down this line.
I think part of the issue is that TWF guys sometimes also go with Weapon Finesse because they have to have high DEX anyway. Works fine with a pair of light weapons. Not so much with a double weapon.
Yeah, that mistaken belief that "TWF=finesse build" seems why it is often passed over (plus the fact that the quarterstaff is the only non-exotic/racial double weapon...bleh). Thus, people might think that only rangers can use them effectively.
Of course, that is again, a mistaken belief. With a 20 point buy or above, it is easy to get a strength based TWF build on a martial class. You simply need to divide your points into a 16 and two 14's, and raise one of those 14's to 16 with your racial bonus (floating bonus, one of the countless races that give a fixed bonus to either dex or str). After that, you only need to put your 4th level ability score increase into dex (bringing it to 17), and you qualify for all the good TWF feats while still having enough strength to make weapon finesse redundant.
Also, just for the record: the titan mauler/two flail things doesn't really work out too well. The rules on TWF say:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.
The later TWF feats just gives extra offhand attacks. So the offhand flail is no different from any other twohanded weapon. No idea on the mainhand flail. Mainhand offhand? Too silly to get into personally.
So, where's my question;
How would it work for a Titan Mauler archetype Bavarian that use a dire flan in each hand? At 2nd level, how many attacks would he get? Does he get the "off hand attack" with each of the double weapons? If not, why not? Thanks folks.
If you're wielding a double weapon in one hand (as a Titan Mauler would), you cannot use it as a double weapon. You treat it as a single weapon and can only make an attack with one end.
So, where's my question;
How would it work for a Titan Mauler archetype Bavarian that use a dire flan in each hand? At 2nd level, how many attacks would he get? Does he get the "off hand attack" with each of the double weapons? If not, why not? Thanks folks.
Raw? Two attacks at -4/-4 for two non light weapons. Rai? He kills himself if he can't also juggle chainsaws.
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If you're wielding a double weapon in one hand (as a Titan Mauler would), you cannot use it as a double weapon. You treat it as a single weapon and can only make an attack with one end.
Where does it say that in the rules? I get that wen using a double weapon in your OFFHAND you only get one attack, as per the rules of TWF. But where does it say anything about using one in your MAN HAND??
Edit: Actually, it does state that you can't use it as a double weapon one-handed.
Double Weapons: A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
If you are using a double weapon in one hand using a class ability to use a two-handed weapon one handed, then you are using the double weapon as a two-handed weapon by default.
[If you're wielding a double weapon in one hand (as a Titan Mauler would), you cannot use it as a double weapon. You treat it as a single weapon and can only make an attack with one end. Where does it say that in the rules? I get that wen using a double weapon in your OFFHAND you only get one attack, as per the rules of TWF. But where does it say anything about using one in your MAN HAND??
Because the TWF rules allow extra attacks with the offhand, not the mainhand. Nothing does quite what you are asking for in the rules. And as a general principle, the rules give you permission to do things, and otherwise you are restricted to how things are 'normally' done.
What are you talking about? I didn't ask a out what the attack penalties would be. I asked about how many attacks he would get/Raw? Two attacks at -4/-4 for two non light weapons. Rai? He kills himself if he can't also juggle chainsaws.So, where's my question;
How would it work for a Titan Mauler archetype Bavarian that use a dire flan in each hand? At 2nd level, how many attacks would he get? Does he get the "off hand attack" with each of the double weapons? If not, why not? Thanks folks.
I did answer your question, he gets Two attacks. The game doesnt care how many silly dangling bits are on the ends of your weapons. Holding a Double weapon in each hand has no effects on your ability to attack.
I like a toothy Half-Orc Invulnerable Rager using an orc double axe with the Beast Totem line, Come and Get Me, the Two Weapon Fighting line, Combat Reflexes, Reckless Abandon.
Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Rogue and especially Horizon Walker also get the job done in impressive fashion as well.
Double weapons aren't used all that much because there are no 18-20/x2 or 19-20/x3 double weapons.