Goblin Squad Member
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If you enjoy chess you enjoy PvP. If you enjoy tennis you enjoy PvP.
PvP can take many forms. Competition for profit in the market. Competition to mine a resource. In fact just about any competition is PvP.
No offense intended, but that is not what someone is 99% of the time talking about when they say PvP, they are 99% of the time talking about other players being able to attack them in the system the game uses for combat versus mobs, and likewise being able to attack others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The serious PvP/griefing issues will probably not arise until after the beta.
The sort of player that enjoys singling out non-combat roleplaying/crafting characters (the sort of character often played by highschool aged girls who are in the game to socialize not fight) and harassing them to "teach them a lesson" are unlikely to bother with the Beta.
Harumph. Dedicated crafter here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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it shouldn't be too much of an issue with bounties and in game gm's planning on watching intentional griefing but as they devs said somewhere the game will have a risk/reward factor the higher the risk the higher the reward so if your not a pvp'r hire some or befriend some or get a group of non pvpers safety is in numbers but remember without pvp the economy will stagnate so be careful what you wish for im not saying im going to go kill everything as this will ruin the game for newbies and i want them to enjoy and level up but if i see someone near my territory or posing a threat to my coin making you but your sweet cinnamon rolls ill shoot a fireball straight up their skirt
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Goblin Squad Member
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I remember in UO you could craft a chess board and carry it with you and the two of you could click it and play a game of chess. I'm perfectly OK with that kind of PvP.
The form of PvP I'm discussing is the one where you are exploring the world or harvesting materials or running quests and another player has the option of killing you. That's the kind in which I have no desire to participate.
I'm perfectly happy to spend my game time whacking virtual piñatas. I find that the challenges of facing tough mobs create plenty of conflicts for me to resolve.
I'm taking a wait-and-see approach to PFO. If it's possible to have a robust, fulfilling game experience without ever killing another player or being killed by one, I'll come play it. If not, I'll pass.
I think if you play a good aligned cleric and make friends, travel, and adventure with friends you should probably do fine. If your party gets jumped just focus on healing. Besides, clerics get heavy armor. Druid might work well for you if you don't mind the risk of only being allowed leather armor and wooden weapons & shields. Very viable class with good healing and buffs, animal companions to help defend and hunt, and a bunch of really neat abilities and skills especially in the higher levels.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No offense intended, but that is not what someone is 99% of the time talking about when they say PvP, they are 99% of the time talking about other players being able to attack them in the system the game uses for combat versus mobs, and likewise being able to attack others.If you enjoy chess you enjoy PvP. If you enjoy tennis you enjoy PvP.
PvP can take many forms. Competition for profit in the market. Competition to mine a resource. In fact just about any competition is PvP.
No offense taken. I guess my point is that Chess really is PvP but with all the MMO myths about PvP removed. People have really been hurt by gankers and griefers and it has left a really bad bruise on online gaming. Not all of those myths are untrue either.
But speaking truly we should disallow the tyranny of fear. They are virtual terrorists. You should not allow them to drive you from what you value. Instead gather your friends and band together. Unite in your purpose and resist them. They should not be allowed to drive you from your game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Look, we are going to get a lot of this over the months until release. I think the best policy is, rather than writing apologetics lauding the virtues of PvP and trying to convince a non-PvPer that they will have fun if they just give it a shot, instead just respond with something like, "Yes, this is a PvP based game. If you do not enjoy PvP, this may not be the game for you."
I know our heart is in the right place, but I, at least, would prefer not to convince people to buy the game who have a good chance of not enjoying it, and a perfectly valid reason for potentially feeling that way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they are here they have in a sense already purchased it. You are right to suggest it might be more honest to so advise them.
Yet an argument for the sake of bloodiest liberty should be given.
Those who have been bruised by previous encounters with griefing, or frightened by the mythos that has grown rightly around it, should take courage and defend what is theirs.
Many will not find it worth their trouble. Some might be liberated from their fear.
This won't be PvP in the sense of Mortal online or Darkfall though. That's what people think when they hear the term. I don't mind trying to explain the difference, some take the time to see where GW is taking the game, some just cant see with all those trees in the way sadly enough.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think they will do a nice job of having pvp be primarily between warring hex's with the occasional skirmish hitting those who try to avoid it. i mean if you dont like to pvp but only get killed by a player typically once is it really that bad? so as long as their stance on griefing is against spawn campers etc i think the system should work it self out especially since primarily pve players will focus on money more often so they should be able to hire mercs to protect them also all and all there will be plenty of ways for non pvp'ers to protect themselves from the wolves most of the time
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally i do not have fun with pvp i think it ruins any game it is the primary focus in. however if they balance pvp with pve and it is only allowed in certain areas i have no problem with it, if i go into that area than technically i flag myself for pvp. to say pvp is what this game is all about is a little premature. lets wait and see what they do. i will give it a chance and see what comes.
on another note if your only in this game for pvp perhaps you should not play any type of mmo and instead go play a fps like tribes.
If they are here they have in a sense already purchased it. You are right to suggest it might be more honest to so advise them.
Yet an argument for the sake of bloodiest liberty should be given.
Those who have been bruised by previous encounters with griefing, or frightened by the mythos that has grown rightly around it, should take courage and defend what is theirs.
Many will not find it worth their trouble. Some might be liberated from their fear.
I would have to disagree with the assessment that they have already come to the decision to buy the MMO game. I'm here because I play a table top game called Pathfinder with most of the settings in Golarion and heard about an mmo being made. Not because I saw an interest in a new MMO that looks a ton like Eve online if not a straight up clone that is itching for a "sandbox" pvp dominated fantasy game.
I try to keep up on the decisions that GW puts out in blogs, and people posting on the boards. From the things I've read, on the PVP people who are the defensive their perspective PVP is better, "meaningful" (I personally have begun to hate that word) experience, It's whats happening if you don't want to join the game then leave we don't need nor want you, or some stupid thing like oh you can stay close to the cities, but you won't get the full "Meaningful" experience of the game, or join such in such guild/charter. Which is another messed up thing where it's going to come down to Join our guild or we will kill you or join our guild or they (previous guild) will kill you.
Now PVE players its, is there any PVE content at all? There is some, but not a lot and I must create the content for myself and other players which i bought a game which in most instances provide content. Though on the perspective on Minecraft like pve players such player created content is content with. When asked for an option to not do pvp it is a straight up no as the developers don't want to have to create more pve content to satisfy the average pve player.
Finally a thing I see is that if this game is successful there may be another Pathfinder MMO made closer to PVE that would satisfy PVE players. I doubt it, but there is always hope. Also dread that if the game is successful noone will make a pve oriented Pathfinder MMO, that is closer to the Pathfinder TT game, and if the game is unsuccessful noone will want to make a pve Pathfinder mmo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well for my part I hope that more than a few Pathfinder TT players find that the MMO way of doing things is also good, and that the distinction between PvE and PvP is a bit artificial and overhyped.
I want your folks in the game because they will enrich the quality of the gameplay manifold, or so I believe. Strictly selfish motives here, but born of the esteem I hold for my players back when I ran games.
So anyway I hope we can demonstrate that it works well once it is done. But as you know we have no idea exactly what will actually be popping out of development yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Long story short without pvp'ers losing thier gear pve'rs are going to lose out on alot of business on the flip side pve'rs will also make the potions food gear etc etc that pvp'rs need to succeed so it is a ying and yang system that needs to be balanced within a reasonable amount so that everyone can contribute in some sort of way
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Goblin Squad Member
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I for one am eager to having my main be a mercenary/bounter hunter.
I'm still wishing there was a bounty hunter-focused guild, I did a search, and it was sparsely mentioned.
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Everywhere will be PvP, it's just the danger of it varies by area. From what I've read and understand, there will be extremely safe areas where enforcers can arrive real quick, and kill aggressors. In those areas, it will be suicide to try and kill someone there. In the outer areas, they may take a bit longer to arrive, but bandits could get away with murder in the outer areas, but they will be flagged, and it will be a bad idea to come back there (the flag could become permanent, making you KoS in there.)
It will generally be a good idea to have some muscle to protect you (hiya). Also, PS: It sounds like you will be able to dispatch the enforcers, BUT they are relentless. They will just send more after you, and not to mention they will have access to abilities players do not have.
Don't forget that PvE players will be needed to keep escalations in check, to fight off mobs that are disturbed by harvesting operations, building construction and things like that. Wile there won't be Wow style quests everywhere, there may well be more for those who don't want to PvP to do then what's normally mentioned.
I still believe the narrowed level gap will allow PvE players the chance to flee a PvP encounter if that's what they wish. At lest it won't be like getting one shotted by someone who's skill is equivalent to 10 levels above you. Root, snare or stun and haul butt for town. Or in my case break Los and "Shadows hide you" ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is the deal... PvP is just like in real life... PVE is less like real life... In open world PvP it is easy to avoid (in Q'ing for battlegrounds it is not)... someone mentioned breaking line of sight... Think about all the ways you can avoid it (if thats your fancy)... I cast root and walk away (see ya later), I shoot you in the leg your snared (see ya later), I'm a warrior who can cripple/shoutfear/etc. (see ya later)... We can go on and on... at the end of the Day pvp 24/7 everywhere is what we put money into so take a deep breathe and evolve your gameplay tactics its a challenge can you overcome it ;)
Here is the deal... PvP is just like in real life... PVE is less like real life... In open world PvP it is easy to avoid (in Q'ing for battlegrounds it is not)... someone mentioned breaking line of sight... Think about all the ways you can avoid it (if thats your fancy)... I cast root and walk away (see ya later), I shoot you in the leg your snared (see ya later), I'm a warrior who can cripple/shoutfear/etc. (see ya later)... We can go on and on... at the end of the Day pvp 24/7 everywhere is what we put money into so take a deep breathe and evolve your gameplay tactics its a challenge can you overcome it ;)
Yet another example of a person bragging that pvp is better than pve. Real life game play? Please. PVP is as real and meaningful interaction as the likelihood of you hitting your heads on a brick wall until you knock yourself unconscious. I can play pvp just fine I choose not to play because I have little interest in it and the interest I do have I use to play first person shooters. The money that goes to that is the original game cost and the energy cost to power my systems. Not a monthly fee.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Indeed PvP has nothing to do with real live (thankfully).
However, I am amazed how many people complain that most classic fantasy MMOs (ie themeparks with only arena pvp) are boring "nowadays" but are so adamantly against trying a new thing.
Human interaction has always involved conflict. When we learn about history we learn about battles fought.
Now there are many many themeparks just as there are many many eco simulations (with the latter being much more low profile than the former).
There are simply NO games like what PFO will become and that is the reason that PFO should be exactly as it is planned.
Does that mean we all will hate it now and then? Possibly. But that is the price, you can't have great highs without the chance for great lows!
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Goblin Squad Member
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If u don't want a PvP environment this is not the game for you sorry I didn't make it so don't blame me...
@Draelyn - Nowhere did i say "pvp is better than pve" no where do I say "PVP is a meaninful interaction" I like how you make stuff up though...
@ MicMan - Pvp is like real life read the previous posts someone mentiones how it is and I agree with them they specifically mention Chess as a good example... If you apply for a job it is person versus person... Not you trying to get a job and a computer AI program applying for the same job... If you can't see that nothing we say here will help /shrug. Person versus Person as mentioned above by someone else is everywhere that is why there is a world economy/nations/states/sports teams/political offices... on and on not listing everything in the world here just google it.
So back to the topic this game is PvP complaining about a circle being round won't change the fact of what it is.
If you enjoy chess you enjoy PvP. If you enjoy tennis you enjoy PvP.
PvP can take many forms. Competition for profit in the market. Competition to mine a resource. In fact just about any competition is PvP.
The point is if you want to be heroic you need something heroic to go up against. Not a gigantic pinata made to look like a dragon, but a real villain. You cannot be brave unless you are at least a little bit afraid.
Every story, to be a story, has to have conflict. If you want to live out a story in PFO there will have to be conflict.
+1
Totally agreeI can see how pvp is more lifelike but i normally play games on pve. This will be fun with a group of people watching out for each other. I cant wait.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Real life "PvP" is pretty much how civilized folks became polite to each other. It may be easy to forget, safe in our civilized reality-bubbles, that not so long ago people killed each other over a perceived insult. Duels to the death were part of the culture. We aren't all that far from living like that even now: consider street gangs.
People pretty much gave up much of that in exchange for comfort and the sense of security but it really is still out there beyond the fragile bubble walls of perception.
People are pretty scary critters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Hobbun: If you want to try out a sandbox MMO prior to PFO I would suggest giving EVE online a try. Don't be intimidated by the learning curve.
Alot of the systems that they are talking about using in PFO are already in use there. I.E. real time based leveling/training and the player based economy.
Infact the more a hear the more it seems that PFO = EVE with a fantasy theme instead of a science fiction theme. Not that it is a bad thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Hobbun: If you want to try out a sandbox MMO prior to PFO I would suggest giving EVE online a try. Don't be intimidated by the learning curve.
Alot of the systems that they are talking about using in PFO are already in use there. I.E. real time based leveling/training and the player based economy.
Infact the more a hear the more it seems that PFO = EVE with a fantasy theme instead of a science fiction theme. Not that it is a bad thing.
Thank you for the suggestion, although I want to say my feelings on PVP have changed drastically since making this thread. I am not longer anti or hesitating in regards to it, I am actually very much looking forward to PFO.
And I have tried both DarkFall and EVE Online. Both were fun, but didn't have a lot of time to play either. I really did like the skill system of EVE, which is what I understand what PFO will be like.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personnaly eta d' lore i dont care what you put your money into, thats your problem. I have a couple friends who would have helped with the ks but saw posts by people like you and told me "screw that". I still supported gw and will try the game. If it turns out like you want then i'll just go elsewhere. Any game is about all players not just the few who want to go around and kill others to loot there stuff. There should be a happy medium where everyone can enjoy this game. There are numerous play styles that should be adressed in any game. If the dev's just do it your way then what will most likely happen is all of those like me who prefer not to pvp will leave and find other games to play, then who will you have to go beat on and rob.
Remember this is an mmorpg not a fps. Every mmorpg is a pvp game to some extent. I would really like to here from the developement team on this issue. Still sounds like its just gonna be another UO Ripoff, where you spend more time replacing stuff than enjoying the content.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I find it odd that with so many suposed detriments to pvp, bountys, faction hits, alignment hits, people seem to think that pvp is the ONLY thing thats going to be in the game and that there will be little if any pve content.
I don't beleive thats going to be true.
This is a open world pvp game.
You MAY engage in PvP in many areas.
Not, you MUST engage, but, you MAY engage.
If you chose to do so, outside of war or bounty hunting you will suffer negative consequences.
There will most likely be a spat of asstards killing anyone and everything the first few days of each new month on there destiny twin alt as more newbs are let in, they gotta grief the newbs after all, and the first week of open release but it is not likely to be economicaly and developmentally sustainable to do so on a long term basis.
Outside of that you are far more likely to see warfare between companies & settlements (don't wander through active battlefields) disputes over resources (don't try to steal someones mining site if they have more guards) and banditry (don't carry 500,000 gp worth of crafted goods to the next town for sale without an armed guard) after the initial rush settles down and people become more aware of what is and isn't profitable pvp.
Don't chat on an hex wide channel (piss people off), don't spam annoying emotes (piss people off), hawk adds for the same lame sword every 15 seconds (piss people off), blast recruitment apps for the same lame guild every 15 seconds (piss people off) etc, because profitable or not, sometimes there are people that just need to die regardless of the consequences. Don't be one of those people.
Otherwise, you CAN be attacked and WILL have to be aware, but you should not have to endure constant PVP if you do not choose to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I for one hate PVP in themepark games as well. I've also had some terrible experiences with it in sandbox games (Mortal Online, that piece of @#$%!). Yet, I do like everything I've heard about it in the Goblinworks blogs. The idea of proper full PVP definitely sounds great and alluring, on paper. In practice though it's a very difficult balancing act. One little flaw in the system, or one dedicated maniacal maverick, and it can all fall apart.
Mortal Online's PVP system sounded amazing on paper, it seemed flawless, but the end result is that PKing and griefers were rampant, they literally lined up around starting areas to kill noobs, and each other. You couldn't even go into a town without getting ganked and looted.
In the end, the only way we'll know if PFO's PVP is good and works is by playing it. At the very least I fully expect there will be a lot of problems during early enrollmeny. I also hope they'll be able to iron things out before open enrollment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i'm very happy for unrestricted pvp not because i like killing or being killed however.
What i want from PFO is something akin to .hack or yureka manga i read when i was little where if you were a murderer you would be marked as such and other players would hunt you down. Sure you have some people that would do horrible things, or trick others into murder but, that's what makes the game appealing to me, that I have to be on my guard.
Some of my favorite moments in gaming are when a trusted comrade betrays me and I strike out for revenge on them or have to run for my life. Without that, without the idea of groups forming to protect themselves and others, bounty hunters tracking down PK'ers and bring them to justice, or being able to stab the jerk in the back who you just saw gank a newbie, this game looses most of it's appeal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Makes sense to me.If flagging is automated maybe there should be a /forgive mechanic available to the victim.
If I am heavily engaged and strafe into the path of a friendly fireball I may well want to minimize the mayhem resulting from my clumsuness.
Thoughts?
as someone who often plays an archer, i am in favor of this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Thar
Personnaly eta d' lore i dont care what you put your money into, thats your problem. I have a couple friends who would have helped with the ks but ... content.
Ummm what are u talking about? No where did I say "I want this game to turn out..." a specific way... Are u making stuff up?
Try not to get offended when people speak their minds... It's just not civilized. This thread is called PvP that is what we are ALL talking about. I will speak my mind if u don't like it then don't read it simple as that I will not be bullied by your comments so stop trying.
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@ Eta - ignore them.
@ Being - you crack me up
Chilz peoples,
The Dev's already stated that open world PvP is in the game and it is also mentioned in the the Kickstarter. You can't put money into this and then cry about it later hoping you can change the game development by trolling the forums. If you purchase something without reading it then the only person you can blame is yourself. Stop trolling people who point out that you bought something without reading the fine print.
Here is where we should be spitting out how to make PvP work. What did u like about it? What did you NOT like about it? Blah blah blah you get it. Arguing with people just because you don't like something you bought is really really (insert something funny here).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ummm what are u talking about? No where did I say "I want this game to turn out..." a specific way... Are u making stuff up?
Try not to get offended when people speak their minds... It's just not civilized. This thread is called PvP that is what we are ALL talking about. I will speak my mind if u don't like it then don't read it simple as that I will not be bullied by your comments so stop trying.
You should focus more on the subject, Eta, and less on other posters Regeneration 5 (Acid or Fire).
Thar was just violating the most important rule of: Don't be a Jerk. by using blanket statements such as "People like you" with a straw-man attack and then trying to cover it up with a reasonable argument agreeing with you.I personally want the PVP to be intense and to create a strong group mentality among players. I'm not saying that lone wolves will not be viable, just that Competition is definitely the drive that keeps people playing and paying together.
@Kyn: People read things before throwing several hundred dollars at them? I don't!
I am going to go into the kitchen and PvP me a margarita right now! Let's see who wins.
EDIT: Me-1 Margarita-0
Congratulations! You just gained the Margarita Slayer merit badge! (+2 to social skills, -1 to dexterity) ;)