the Magus seems like a fun class and I have a player who plays one in my games but the class has some abilities that in practice seem a bit over powered and I am not sure if this is because i am reading them wrong or if it is as intended.
i understand that a magus can cast a spell and attack with his sword at the same time similar to dual wielding. it makes sence both thematically and structurally (as in having to do with balance)
however I sort of assumed this was something limited to attack spells like shocking grasp or burning hands. things that had an attack roll or at least did direct damage to an opponent.
however my player often uses the ability to cast enhancement spells that other classes have to waste a standard action to make useful, things like Enlarge person to become instantly larger then attack an enemy in the same round, or he might cast mirror strike to effectivly make 3 attacks in one round (3rd level character)
I honestly have no great problem with this. I think its very clever. but i want to be sure I am understanding this correctly and this is both RAW and RAI.
note: since i am asking about RAW and RAI I did not plae this in the rules or home brew category.
Spell Combat only works with spells that take 1 standard action to cast, so Enlarge Person is not an option.
"...As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action..."
Mirror Strike does half damage barring crits, but that does sound like an appropriate use of Spell Combat. So would casting Shield while attacking. Don't forget the casting defensive checks if he's being threatened, though, low level magi can find those challenging.
Remember, Enlarge Person has a casting time of 1 round.
AH!! good catch.
outside of the enlarge person though is casting things like shield and such pretty much as intended?
shield > 5 foot step > full attack at -2
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Yep, that looks right. He's playing a spellcaster intelligently, which is always strong.
Increasing the number of encounters per day may make him have to choose more carefully when to expend his limited spell slots; it might also be bad for his party. Each table is different and different approaches to balance might or might not work, but it's good to hear you don't have any terrible balance issues going on.
no. the guy plays well i just want to make sure I am understanding the rules and not making mistakes.
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As a slightly different question, I have seen people playing Magus's in a variety of ways. One that has bothered me the most is...
Cast shocking grasp, move 30ft, attack with sword to deliver weapon damage+shocking grasp (at -2). Now is that right?
Or is that bluring the rules as written for delivering of touch spells? I've always allowed the above based on the touch attack as part of casting rule, its the 30ft move in between I'm a bit hazy on.
Appreciate the comments
Thanks
Yep he can do no problem in fact one of the FAQ blog threads went into it i believe.
it seems that is exactly the way it can work.
touch spells in and of themselves allow a free touch attack, this touch attack is not a part of the casting of the spell its just a rules quirk that lets you make a free action attack against a target to discharge the spell. you to cast the spell and not discharge it until you have actually touched something or casted another spell.
thus, cast spell > move 30 feet > touch target as a free action.
The second level Spell Strike ability allows the player to deliver a touch spell through their weapon. The ability specifically states that when they make the free touch attack that is a part of the spell itself they can do so through the weapon dealing both spell damage and weapon damage (even if they do not have a standard action with which to make an attack. as a bonus if the weapon attack is a critical hit the spell is a critical hit also. Thus they can cast shocking grasp move forward and deliver the spell as a stab with the sword CRIT and deal double weapon damage and double spell damage.
BUT WAIT! THERE IS MORE!!!
If the Magus should miss the spell is NOT discharged. The Magus is still sitting there with a charge of shocking grasp in his hand, even if the magus is disarmed between turns he STILL has the spell ready to be discharged on his or her next turn.
clever players can abuse the hell out of this. ^_^
The balancing drawback to this is that rather than delivering the spell as a touch attack they are delivering the spell as a normal attack with the -2 to hit against the opponents full AC. some GMs rule that should the character miss the target AC but hit the touch AC the spell is either discharged as normal or fizzles out but that's not a part of the rules.
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You've pretty much hit on the beauty that is the Magus. He's everything that Blaster Wizards are supposed to be- terrifying machines of arcane destruction, wrapped up in a slightly tougher skin and clanking around in beafy armor.
Magus are meant to be the fusion and rebirth of the mage/fighter, not just a fighter who can sometimes shoot off a magic missile or two instead of attacking.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Cast shocking grasp, move 30ft, attack with sword to deliver weapon damage+shocking grasp (at -2). Now is that right?Not quite.
Using Spell Combat, the Magus can take a full round action to cast Shocking Grasp, and make a touch attack at -2 and also make a melee attack with his weapon at -2. Because this is a full round action, he can't move more than a 5' step. If he's 1st level, he won't have Spellstrike, so won't be replacing the touch attack with a melee attack, if he's 2nd or higher he my be making a melee attack at -2 instead of the touch attack at -2.
By just using Spellstrike, a level 2+ Magus can use a standard action to cast Shocking Grasp, then use his move action to go 30' (assuming human with light load/armour) and make his free attack from Shocking Grasp as either a touch attack, or a melee attack with his sword. This attack does not suffer the -2, because he's not using Spell Combat
Correct, no -2 penalty unless it's Spell Combat, the full-round action. Hooray Maguses...es!!
Good thread, though to be clear this is as intended and not any kind of exploit or insanely overpowered issue.
The magus has good burst potential this way, but it limited in uses as he is going to run out of shocking grasps (etc) soon enough. There is also the concentration check required.
Once the magus runs out of touch spells they can fall back to Arcane Mark for spell combat, but they damage is meh and they are a poor man's melee fighter at this point.
lol. using a level 0 spell that does no damage to get a free attack MORE HAX!!!
^_^
I dont think any one is really saying the magus is broken or exploited. even when we do say it it is more of a joke than anything.
the magus is one of the best balanced classes in my oppinion. very fun to play, lots of room for player tactics and ingenuity, is tempered at higher levels by both limited spells and limited BAB.
all in all it, allong with Ranger, Monk, cleric and a few other classes are the most fun for all levels of player except the most extreme min/maxer
I've got an unrelated question about the magus. Anyone know of a good sheet for a blackblade?
The magus has good burst potential this way, but it limited in uses as he is going to run out of shocking grasps (etc) soon enough. There is also the concentration check required.
Once the magus runs out of touch spells they can fall back to Arcane Mark for spell combat, but they damage is meh and they are a poor man's melee fighter at this point.
While for the most part I agree, at about 10th level the Magus has the potential to be very scary. If he took the trait that lowers the Effective Level by 1 when metamagic feats are added for shocking grasp, then gets Intensify Spell, that's 10d6 shocking damage as a 1st level spell. Oh but he'll run out you say! It's a first level spell, 1st level Pearls of Power are only 1,000 GP (assuming he didn't take Craft Wondrous Item). Now consider that a Magus doesn't have to spend as much on magic weapons (or armor if they go Kensai) due to spell pool, and that leaves a lot of cash left over for Perals of Power.
Stuff
Can't you combine that with spell perfection for unlimited casts of intensified shocking grasp a day? Or first level intensified maximized shocking grasp....
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StuffCan't you combine that with spell perfection for unlimited casts of intensified shocking grasp a day? Or first level intensified maximized shocking grasp....
No. It is not a cantrip and it will not became cantrip.
If I recall correctly there are a few posts by developers that specify that you can't get under the original level of a spell even if you pile up traits and feats in a way that seem to allow it. It was never made an official FAQ but no GM that I know will allow it.
StuffCan't you combine that with spell perfection for unlimited casts of intensified shocking grasp a day? Or first level intensified maximized shocking grasp....No. It is not a cantrip and it will not became cantrip.
If I recall correctly there are a few posts by developers that specify that you can't get under the original level of a spell even if you pile up traits and feats in a way that seem to allow it. It was never made an official FAQ but no GM that I know will allow it.
I think he meant combining Echo Spell Metamagic with Spell Perfection.
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lol. using a level 0 spell that does no damage to get a free attack MORE HAX!!!
^_^
I dont think any one is really saying the magus is broken or exploited. even when we do say it it is more of a joke than anything.
the magus is one of the best balanced classes in my oppinion. very fun to play, lots of room for player tactics and ingenuity, is tempered at higher levels by both limited spells and limited BAB.
all in all it, allong with Ranger, Monk, cleric and a few other classes are the most fun for all levels of player except the most extreme min/maxer
Take the Close Range Arcana at 3'rd level and use Acid Splash/Ray of Frost/Disrupt Undead.
Not great, but better than Arcane Mark. The Arcana also has uses beyond just spamming low damage cantrips.
Then there are Pearls of Power, a Magi's best friend.
Or first level intensified maximized shocking grasp....
Yes this works, but it's at 15th level. 60 points of damage for a 1st level spell isn't bad, but at 15th level, fighters can do more than that in an average round, so it's not quite as bad.
True, the pool can be grown with Pearls, but it is still finite (as opposed to true melee classes) and most GM's I know will limit how many you can ultimately use - otherwise I will be walking around with a shirt made of 700 pearls acquired over time.
True, the pool can be grown with Pearls, but it is still finite (as opposed to true melee classes) and most GM's I know will limit how many you can ultimately use - otherwise I will be walking around with a shirt made of 700 pearls acquired over time.
Most GM's use the Wealth by Level chart as the limitation, so if you can afford 350k gold (assuming you make your own pearls) you can have 700 pearls.
I think most GMs use a reasonable slot restriction for pearls of power.
for me you get two free earing slots, but beyond that it takes up a regular magical slot. for example, you could put one on a ring to use the ring slot, or necklace to use the necklace slot.
I think the idea of a magus or other caster with a bunch of pearls of power is kind of cute. A magus with pearls of power in earing, ring and neclace slot for 5 extra spells while looking more or less normal would be pretty good NPC.
to be honest it never came up.
the general understanding in my group is that a pearl of power is kind of like a stat bonus item. you have to be wearing it and it does not really work until you have been wearing it for a day.
I freely admit that this is not RAW and like i said we had not really considered it we just assumed it to work a certain way.
having said that now that I know the raw I think I would STILL limit it because 15 pearls of power are, in my book, more powerful than your average +2 weapon, +4 stat bonus, or other 15k equivalent benefits.
just my opinion.
no. you dont have to declare it. it simply has to be basically attuned to you. you have to have it for a day. not simply grab one from a bucket of pearls, renew a spell then toss it back in the bucket.
honestly speaking I dont think its a HUGE issue. It has never once came up in a game that I played, but I think it is definatley exploitable.
even 8 extra pearls would be a bit excessive to me. 2 to 4 makes sense.
once again not something i would fiat, but something I would consider discussing if it ever turned up. In my games players have to always be concerned about the GM exploiting any rules that the players can.
On the account of Pearls of Power, no one brought up the base class's level 4 ability: Spell Recall. He can still get more Shocking Grasps (as much as he has arcane pool points.) On top of that, it improves at level 11 to becoming half a spell's level or instead get a different spell in his spellbook (at the cost of 1 point per spell level.)
Also not sure about others, but my Dervish Dancing Magus does pretty good damage at level 5, even without shocking grasp. She's no fighter, but hey, 1d6+10 15-20/2x is nothing to laugh at.
(Math: 1d6 +1 Keen Scimitar + 5 Dex Bonus + 1 Enhance + 2 Damage Arcane Strike + 2 Enhance from pool)
