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Considering how much I love sociology and social experiments, this thread is GREAT!
I would like to add that "acceptable" behavior for both the host and the guest change depending upon a lot of factors. Country, region, and culture can drastically affect social norms.
What I find surprising is the responses TO this etiquette thread. There are more conservative viewpoints in favor of the host than I would have thought.
This makes me think that the topic itself draws in people who would take offense because the more laid back attitudes probably would find the question itself less interesting.
Now, moving on to things that I would like to add:
Personally I view swearing as a sign of immaturity, or as TOZ said a lack of personal discipline and self-control.
Swearing (or cursing) is rarely a sign of immaturity. It can possibly be a lack of self-control or discipline, but even that is subject to a lot of factors.
Generally speaking, swearing is slang and it is a subset of language. All language is used to impart ideas and emotions from one creature to another. It's acceptance is completely dependent upon the society in which you live and the society in which you were raised. It is not immature to use the language that your culture has sewn into your language development cycle as a means of expression.
Simply put, it's different for everybody. It is abhorrent to swear around those who are not used to it, while those who were raised in an atmosphere of acceptance do not perceive the issue. We should keep this in mind for true understanding of one another.
Moving onward to etiquette! Was the OP being a bad guest? In many ways, yes.
Was the host being a bad host? Also yes. Most ethical and deterministic forms of etiquette as written by standard instructional books actually have the host being a terrible one.
I was raised that a guest was waited on and made to feel comfortable. If someone is thirsty, give him drink. If someone is hungry, feed him. If someone spills something on his shirt, lend him one while you wash it. We don't care if you're just the plumber, you at least get a glass of iced tea and asked if you want us to make you a sandwich while in our house.
This is an example of how you are supposed to act as a host. Refusing a guest your milk is very rude even by very barbaric standards. The idea of offering your bread and wine is as old as most cultures, and in many customs you are not considered a guest in a home UNTIL you are offered food and drink. Also, when you offer to host you are offering to be patient and understanding of others. The act of hosting was always considered one of diplomacy.
So... we have a bad guest and a bad host.
How would I have handled it? I, myself, think these are petty small problems and would never have amounted to anything. I don't lose my temper at bad guests because I'm an adult and I understand that... well... some people are bad guests. They go into my fridge, leave a horrible mess, don't chip in, and very rarely even break things on accident. What do I do? I clean up after them and I don't sweat it. People need to learn to relax a bit.
I have been in people's homes that are bad hosts as well. I also see no reason to lose my cool because somebody is a bad host. Actually, I myself am a bad host, so I have no reason to judge.
These people are quite literally crying over spilled milk.
If these people are friends, these are very dumb reasons to get so upset over. If they are not friends, I would suggest they don't try to be as there are obvious social differences.
I would strongly suggest that you at least consider getting counseling as you seem to have strong social awareness problems that can do you considerable damage outside of the gaming sphere.
There are many people here saying that the OP isn't recognizing that he's a bad guest. I would like to reflect the repeated stance many are saying back at them. If you would kick somebody out of your home over these issues, are YOU being a bad host? Are YOU being anal and nit-picky and crying over... well... milk? Perhaps others should consider that they have strong social awareness issues as well if they think these are such big sins.
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People will put up with rude behavior right up to the point where they decide they don't have to tolerate it any longer. Generally, people have much less tolerance for rude behavior in their own home than they do in just about any other social setting.
That's what lead to me kicking someone out of my group.
-Skeld
Was I really that bad?
Yes. Yes you were.
If you take nothing else from this thread, read Trikk and Owen's posts. They pretty much say everything that needs to be said.
(Definitely makes me glad we have a "take care of yourself" policy for our group. Bring whatever you want for yourself, or not. Makes the logistics so much easier.)
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CommandoDude:
Sorry to hear that happened to you. Sounds frustrating and maybe a little embarrassing.
Now -- the hosts and players should have communicated their wants/needs from you more clearly, yes.
And it's clear you meant no harm, and are not by nature a mooch. But you did step on a lot of toes for things that often seem obvious to a lot of people, even if it didn't seem obvious to you. So I think their request was not unusual or uncalled for.
Since you're posting, I'm gonna run with an assumption that you're asking for advice -- and if you don't want advice, just ignore this, of course.
1. If you can bring yourself to, write a sincere note of apology to the hosts. Say you didn't realize you'd stepped on toes and that you appreciate their hospitality, and you apologize for taking advantage, however unintended it was. Say you hope you can associate with them some other time, but don't ask to be back in the group (probably best for all of you to get some space). But if you can do this it can end things feeling less awkward and difficult for all of you, and ends things on a note of closure. It also shows you understand why you were asked to leave and shows you are mature enough to own up to your mistakes--which helps people trust that you can learn from them and not make them again.
2. In the future: if you know you don't always have cash on hand, then eat your own lunch/dinner beforehand and don't expect to eat other people's food when you know folks chip in and you didn't. Eating on an IOU is fine once but 3 times is way too much, whether people remembered to ask or not.
3. In the future: always ASK when you're not sure. ASK ASK ASK. Ask if people pitch in snacks or one person provides; ask if you can have the milk, EVERY TIME; ask if you can have something if you brought nothing yourself; if in doubt about ANYTHING, ask ask ask ask ask. Usually people will make clear what's cool and what isn't. I have friends that expect people to bring stuff and only eat what they brought, I have other friends who are practically offended if you don't eat what they've provided and expect nothing in return--but the thing is, it takes time to make sure that's okay. Everyone's different, so just ASK.
4. When you join another group, go grocery shopping -- buy a bunch of non-perishable, cheap snacks and or cases of soda (or booze, if that's kosher with the group), and store them away somewhere. Then when you go to game, you can just grab from your stash and bring something with you, rather than realize you've forgotten to bring something to pitch in last minute and don't have time to get anything (this is advice I myself have trouble following, mind, but I'm getting better).
5. Pretend you're around 3 year olds a lot--or around your boss all the time. That helps cut down on the swearing. :) (But I can swear like a sailor myself--it is a hard habit to break but it is doable.)
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Personally I view swearing as a sign of immaturity, or as TOZ said a lack of personal discipline and self-control. It's sad that it's not the norm to not swear, but hey what can you do.
The point being, however, that he's in someone else's home and should respect their wishes. When your host says "please don't do this" and you do it anyway, why should you be surprised when you're not invited to return?
Agreed, on both points.
This is a bit off-topic, but cussing like a sailor all the time is a terrible habit, for several reasons.
Social: There are a lot of people, and not just "Ned Flanders" types, who either do not appreciate foul language at all, or who believe that a lot of cussing is indicative of immaturity, poor judgement, or bad social skills. I happen to be one of these people. In general, when I hear a person use four-letter words indiscriminately, my impression of that person goes down, and quickly.
Real-life example: I *NEVER* hire anyone who swears during a job interview, or who I overhear cussing while I'm eavesdropping on applicants' conversations with my admin staff. Even if they are the best-qualified applicant. Even it it's for positions with no public presence. Swearing in that setting shows lack of maturity and poor judgement: qualities that are necessary for success at my organization, and that I can't teach.
effectiveness: From a purely personal standpoint, over-using cuss-words robs them of their power. If you use the F-word like a comma, nobody is going to blink the next time you use it. If you never curse, then you have powerful words at your disposal: words that can have the impact you desire.
Another real-life example: I'm the guy at my office who never swears. Well, that's my reputation at least. Most people think that I'm offended by bad language, and therefore don't use it around me. Actually, the words don't offend me at the slightest. I choose not to use them, unless I need to. When I drop an F-bomb, conversations stop, and people give me their undivided attention. But they're never a slip: it's a conscious decision to let the profanity fly. It means that I'm REALLY upset/angry/emotionally charged.
Oh, and what do I say when I stub my toe/slam my hand in a door/hit my thumb with a hammer?
"OW!!!"
effectiveness: From a purely personal standpoint, over-using cuss-words robs them of their power. If you use the F-word like a comma, nobody is going to blink the next time you use it. If you never curse, then you have powerful words at your disposal: words that can have the impact you desire.
Another real-life example: I'm the guy at my office who never swears. Well, that's my reputation at least. Most people think that I'm offended by bad language, and therefore don't use it around me. Actually, the words don't offend me at the slightest. I choose not to use them, unless I need to. When I drop an F-bomb, conversations stop,...
Sort of like Volde...He Who Must Not Be Named...
Honestly, I used to swear a lot, when I was younger. It was a hard habit to break.
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Honestly, I used to swear a lot, when I was younger. It was a hard habit to break.
It's easy to slip from time to time. I was the singer of a hardcore/death metal band, I'm no stranger to swearing.
But, there's a time and place where it's accepted, and other times it's not. When I'm out with the guys, at a party, concert, etc; these are ideal times to let loose.
At home with my family and kids? No way.
If someone enters my home, I will cater to them as a proper host should, as long as they abide basic rules and respect(use manners, don't be a jerk, etc). If someone's swearing habit/attitude is so bad that they can't control themselves in front of my children, they will be asked to leave. Plain and simple.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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For most people, kicking someone out of a group is difficult and not taken lightly. While you've been gaming with them for over a year, it's likely there were a lot of little things that you did during that time that bothered them. My suggestion is you consider the missed meal payments as examples rather than a definitive list of rude behaviors. The host/ GM probably used some obvious things you've done to annoy as a cover for lots of other unsaid things which bothered them.
That said... it's all incomplete information. None of us were there, it's possible they were being unreasonable. All you can do at this point is find another group and try to focus on being a good guest (which is all any of us can do).
Out of curiosity when you bring your children to someone else's home do you insist that other people not swear if the host finds that sort of behavior acceptable?It's easy to slip from time to time. I was the singer of a hardcore/death metal band, I'm no stranger to swearing.
But, there's a time and place where it's accepted, and other times it's not. When I'm out with the guys, at a party, concert, etc; these are ideal times to let loose.
At home with my family and kids? No way.
If someone enters my home, I will cater to them as a proper host should, as long as they abide basic rules and respect(use manners, don't be a jerk, etc). If someone's swearing habit/attitude is so bad that they can't control themselves in front of my children, they will be asked to leave. Plain and simple.
Depends greatly on who's home I'm bringing them to. I'm thankful to have friends who are respectful and understanding, and can conduct themselves like adults in the presence of children.
If it's the home of someone whom I don't think is a good example for my kids, chances are I won't take them over there in the first place.
I won't openly insist that someone else watch their mouth if I am in their home. I'll simply make it a point to leave the kids with a babysitter next time.
EDIT: @ Lazar - Ah I definitely didn't mean bringing your kids to gaming sessions (personally I'd be very awkward around kids while trying to roleplay so I've never really considered their presence) but rather just in general situations say one of your friends who has teenage children where cussing might come up? Or out in public like restaurants and what not.
I would wager it would matter if you were seen as condoning the behavior or not. Going over to a friend's house that curses a lot would be seen as condoning it especially you stayed there. On the other hand, if it started and you said that you and your family had to be leaving, then that would send the message to your children that you are not. Going to a restaurant and overhearing wouldn't be because most likely if it got loud enough the staff would address it or you could ask the manager to do so. Family is certainly trickier, though I think kids pick up that crazy uncle Joe isn't held in high regard, especially when he starts cussing up a storm.
Please, like that hasn't happened to you every once in awhile, where you thought you had cash on you only to open your wallet and see it empty, or with only half the amount you thought you had?
Only for every date I've ever been on!
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Because honestly once your an adult you should be able to handle people cussing except for use of the word rape when in the presence of victims which is only okay if they're okay with it or racial slurs which just aren't okay in general.
Being able to "handle" something, and having it not spoil your enjoyment of a social activity are very different things.
Further, being the host of a game session, especially one in which you allow in people you aren't yourself friends with, is a very different situation than one where you personally invited someone over.
Many cursewords have a religious element to them, which can make people uncomfortable. There are individual words, usually involving genitalia, that a very large segment of society find unacceptable in "polite" company.
In short while I agree that you have listed some fine examples of speech I wouldn't want in my house, it's far from a complete list, and I entirely disagree with any suggestion that I'm being unreasonable to ask people to not continue to use any language I don't want in my home.
Honestly, once you are an adult, you should be able to take responsibility for your vocabulary and be aware that what you say may make you unwelcome, especially if you continue to use language a host has communicated to you is unacceptable in their home.
You of course have the choice to not moderate your speech. The host then has every right to disinivite you. that isn't over-reacting, that's taking steps to ensure their home remains a comfortable environment for them. In essence, they have decided not to hang out with you anymore. Since the "hanging out" happened in their home, in order to avoid hanging out with you, you can't go there anymore.
Depends greatly on who's home I'm bringing them to. I'm thankful to have friends who are respectful and understanding, and can conduct themselves like adults in the presence of children.
As a parent, I expect people to conduct themselves like adults in the presence of my children. And like my own kids, I expect them to use the curse words properly and know what they mean.
I reject the notions that anyone swearing is immature, undisciplined, or uncreative. But I do teach my kids to use judgment about when to use them because too many people with power over them have what I consider irrational prejudices against such language.
or who believe that a lot of cussing is indicative of immaturity, poor judgement, or bad social skills.
By most linguistic studies of the existence and usage of cussing, these are untrue. The only one that gets credit is "bad social skills", which is primarily focused on the inability to adapt to a social situation that is different from the accustomed. I will grant that the inability to adapt is a poor social skill.
Poor judgement and immaturity have nothing to do with cursing (I will however grant that most people use the concept of "judgement" in ways that are not it's definition. If you intend to mean judgement as a measuring of your words, then I suppose you could call it poor judgement, but please bear in mind that this is not what the word judgement means).
In general, when I hear a person use four-letter words indiscriminately, my impression of that person goes down, and quickly.
This is a judgement made by the recipient. I would like people to realize that your judgement of others does not make you correct.
On a personal note, my impression of people who judge others is one that usually goes down. This is hypocritical and judgmental of me, but I recognize that as something I should work on, and also recognize how ironic it is. ^.^
Real-life example: I *NEVER* hire anyone who swears during a job interview, or who I overhear cussing while I'm eavesdropping on applicants' conversations with my admin staff. Even if they are the best-qualified applicant. Even it it's for positions with no public presence.
This... seems like you are using your personal judgements of others as a measure when put in a position of control. This is dictatorial and irresponsible with the position you've been given. When in the responsible job of hiring, the quality of the applicant to perform the job at hand should be your only concern (yes, the applicant's ability to socialize with his coworkers still counts as his ability to perform his job, so I'm not saying there's NO place for it).
That said I agree it is your own responsibility to leave if you cannot accept the rules of a house but just because it's the rule doesn't make it reasonable it just makes it the rule. And that casting someone out of your presence for their style of speech may be overreacting.
So, let's say we're gaming together and I have a tendency to be satirical and swear a lot because it's my style of speech. Even though I don't really mean anything by it, if my manner of responding to just about everything you say with, 'shut the f#@k up, Donny' because I find that line funny in The Big Lebowski, someone may find it funny. Maybe it's funny the first couple of times, but after twenty-odd times, it's probably getting old. Maybe if I came back with the retort, "get the f#@k out, Donny", will the c(l)ue card will show its hand?
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I kind of disagree about the difference between handling and not allowing it to spoil your fun I'd say handling something properly means being capable of having it not spoil your fun when you encounter it but whatever.
Then we will have to disagree on this. I don't think it's reasonable or realistic to say that, as an adult, you should always be free of any negative emotional reaction to others words, no matter what those people say, as long as they avoid rape and racism.
Anything less than that, and cursing can cause you to have less fun.
Also I can only think of one religious curse off the top of my head and at least in my experience it's one of the least offensive curse words.
Wow. I mentioned that I cuss like an injured sailor, so maybe I'm just foul-mouthed beyond your experience. But I can come up with half a dozen off the top of my head -- which obviously I can't post here due to forum rules. (As this is , effectively, Paizo's "house.")
If I get to count each major variation as a seperate curse (the difference between "Thor Smash It!," "Thor Smash It With a Hammer!" and "Thor Smash it In The Crotch," to give some analogy curses as examples of what I am talking about) would bring me to dozens at least.
Many of which are specifically forbidden in at least one religion.
I don't tend to think of playing games with friends or playing games in general as polite company but that's a case by case sort of judgment to make.
Here I agree, it's a case-by-case basis. And if a person you only see when you are at their house to game asks you not to curse, pretty clearly they want you to be in "polite company" behavior.
I still think it's somewhat unreasonable behavior it's like throwing someone out for using any other slang word.
I strongly disagree. Swearing has been shown to have a different physiological reaction in both user and listener than other words spoken with the same vehemence. At the causal geek (rather than scientific) level, Mythbusters showed it expanded pain tolerance.
To quote the very first thing that popped up in a quick google search "Laboratory tests show that taboo words activate brain areas associated with negative emotion, which are largely centred in the right hemisphere, and that this process is involuntary."
Words that can cause an involuntary negative emotion are not just like other slang.
If we were having a discussion about whether or not it was reasonable to throw someone out of your house for using the word y'all or sup or chill would your opinion change? Would it be acceptable to use traditional insults instead of modern curses such as fool, madman, or wretch?
I think I answered that with my basis for believing their is a scientifically proven difference in the involuntary reaction humans have upon hearing the words.
That said I agree it is your own responsibility to leave if you cannot accept the rules of a house but just because it's the rule doesn't make it reasonable it just makes it the rule. And that casting someone out of your presence for their style of speech may be overreacting.
We seem to agree at the core. to me, however, it's not being cast out because of a speech pattern. It's being cast out due to disrespecting the host by failing to go along with clearly communicated rules.
If the OP had told his hosts "I'm not comfortable changing my speech for your comfort. If that's a requirement, I won't be able to attend any game in your house." and then told the GM "I don;t feel it's fair for je to be unable to play over someone else's speech preferences, can we plan at lcoation X instead?" I'd have felt the OP was behaving reasonably. Instead, the OP admits he kept cursing, after being asked not to (and presumably without giving a refusal to follow such a guideline).
And THAT, the failure to respect the rules of the house after deciding to attend on occasions after those rules have been clearly outlines, is rude.
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or who believe that a lot of cussing is indicative of immaturity, poor judgement, or bad social skills.By most linguistic studies of the existence and usage of cussing, these are untrue. The only one that gets credit is "bad social skills", which is primarily focused on the inability to adapt to a social situation that is different from the accustomed. I will grant that the inability to adapt is a poor social skill.
My sociology notes from studies tell me that primary reason for intense cursing is limited vocabulary that is caused by poor education or low usage of more expanded vocabulary for extended time*. Most people who swear a lot use these words as "poor man" substitutes while expressing themselves because their limited vocabulary does not contain terms they could recall fast enough to use in conversation.
*I recall once on a session when friend was swearing more than usual - when called on that by his wife he apologised and they both noted that he has such bouts after his long week or two week shifts at production line when he works together with lot of physical workers that had only a basic education and adjust to their mode of speech.
Poor judgement and immaturity have nothing to do with cursing
Immaturity has to do a lot with swearing in case of kids and teenagers who start swearing thinking that by using words adults forbid them to utter they are showing they are adult themselves. Many people automatically assume that the same applies to adults. Actually for some people it is true - some adults believe that swearing is sign of adulthood too.
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Real-life example: I *NEVER* hire anyone who swears during a job interview, or who I overhear cussing while I'm eavesdropping on applicants' conversations with my admin staff. Even if they are the best-qualified applicant. Even it it's for positions with no public presence.This... seems like you are using your personal judgements of others as a measure when put in a position of control. This is dictatorial and irresponsible with the position you've been given. When in the responsible job of hiring, the quality of the applicant to perform the job at hand should be your only concern (yes, the applicant's ability to socialize with his coworkers still counts as his ability to...
Though I agree with many of your points on language and profanity, expecting people in a business setting to uphold what is generally held to be accepted and expected levels of courtesy and decorum in a business setting is not only understandable, it's a responsible way to run the public-facing side of a company. Given that nowadays even a lot of background positions have to communicate with business associates outside of the company (via email, or with vendors etc.) it's also acceptable to expect an employee to know how to comport themselves in an appropriate manner when the circumstances call for it.
I don't understand how the OP thought it was ok to dig into the host's fridge every session because it they said it was ok that one time. I don't even dig into my parents' fridge without asking every time.
Not to diss on your parents, but this is very unusual. The OP may or may not be guilty of imposing on his hosts, but some hosts really are glad to share their bounty with guests. I think GrenMeera will back me up on this one.
Anecdotally, I've never met a parent who wanted to be asked permission from their own children to help themselves. Unless it's a young kid making a mess, or a high kid with the munchies clearing the whole fridge out. In fact I have friends with parents who would laugh at me if I were to ask permission to grab a drink or whatever. "Since when do you need permission? Haha!" This may be atypical too, but it's not rare IME.
Above all else, I feel like this whole thing just sideswiped me. I was never given any indication that my behavior was being a problem beforehand (aside from the one time about the milk and the very occasional "can you not curse at the table?").
It happens to the best of us. :)
It's very possible that you took too much for granted in your host's home, though I'm not going to make a judgment, not having been there. And frankly I think a lot of people here are mentally filling in the details with their own experiences, and then making snap judgments of you with entirely too much gusto.
But from what you say, it's also very possible that your hosts made the classic geek mistake of avoiding confrontation until they just couldn't take it anymore, and then deciding that you're a horrible guest. Your hosts may or may not be oversensitive and nitpicky as well, but again, without having been there...
Anyway, even if your hosts are the most oversensitive, nitpicky and worst hosts in the world, you can't control their actions. The only person you can control is you, so I suggest saving this experience to your mental hard drive. And if you join a more fun campaign in the future with similarly sensitive hosts, you'll be able to decide whether accepting their sensitivities is worth it, before anyone starts thinking about booting anyone from the group.
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I also thought this was a troll post - if so brilliant!
If not, I can't stop laughing. Are you the Kramer of rpg? Seriously, you didn't chip in for pizza three times in a row and yet you ate pizza.
You drank their milk (do they have kids?) for a whole year and finally they got the courage to ask the DM to tell you to stop. I find it weird that you were drinking milk at all during the game. During my games I usually by some cheap soda and tell my players to help themselves to it. If one of them helped themselves to the rest of the contents of my fridge I would be put off. Who drinks milk at a game? What are you five? I would never expect one of my players to start drinking milk at a game - it is something I use for cooking and for cereal so they are essentially sending me back to the grocery store prematurely.
You brought snacks that only you liked and then you stopped bringing them at all - were you partaking in their snacks after you stopped?
Finally, you cursed (again do they have kids?) and you seem unable to stop.
Recap: Ate their food, drank their milk, and cursed when asked not to. Bye bye.
My players bring drinks, snacks, and usually pay for my share of the pizza (as I am hosting and DMing). I never even asked them to do that. They even asked what snacks would I like. I love them fellers.
I don't think it's reasonable or realistic to say that, as an adult, you should always be free of any negative emotional reaction to others words
ALL words contain the possibility of negative emotional reaction. Language is an attempt to convey thought and emotion between people, but perspective will be a factor in any instance.
Swearing has been shown to have a different physiological reaction in both user and listener than other words spoken with the same vehemence.
You are very correct. It should be noted that the intensity of the reaction is individual and only considered patterned between people of the same cultural background.
In agreeing with gnomersy, I'd like to point out that language can and will cause emotional reactions, and many times negative ones. The ability to control your actions as a response to emotional stimuli is known as emotional maturity. Responding with anger or hostility towards spoken words is not an appropriate response for a human adult that is emotionally healthy.
My sociology notes from studies tell me that primary reason for intense cursing is limited vocabulary that is caused by poor education or low usage of more expanded vocabulary for extended time*. Most people who swear a lot use these words as "poor man" substitutes while expressing themselves because their limited vocabulary does not contain terms they could recall fast enough to use in conversation.
All of this is correct, but what I was referring to is psychologically a level deeper. WHY is there limited vocabulary? Most of this is due to the common usage of words by those around you. If raised in an area with large groups of people using the same language, it often becomes an instinctual response for the subject as well. The vocabulary becomes limited because the limits exist in the environment.
Though I agree with many of your points on language and profanity, expecting people in a business setting to uphold what is generally held to be accepted and expected levels of courtesy and decorum in a business setting is not only understandable, it's a responsible way to run the public-facing side of a company. Given that nowadays even a lot of background positions have to communicate with business associates outside of the company (via email, or with vendors etc.) it's also acceptable to expect an employee to know how to comport themselves in an appropriate manner when the circumstances call for it.
Oh, I agree fully in fact! The reason why I said what I did is because the original poster said that:
Even it it's for positions with no public presence.
This generally removes the public presence aspect that you were referring to. I even added a stipulation about co-worker interaction in my post specifically to try to avoid confusion.
I think GrenMeera will back me up on this one.
Since you name dropped me, sure... I'll back you up! ^.^ I particularly agree with your last statement as well, but I wasn't trying to spread myself too thin and make those same arguments quite yet.
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or who believe that a lot of cussing is indicative of immaturity, poor judgement, or bad social skills.By most linguistic studies of the existence and usage of cussing, these are untrue. The only one that gets credit is "bad social skills", which is primarily focused on the inability to adapt to a social situation that is different from the accustomed. I will grant that the inability to adapt is a poor social skill.
Poor judgement and immaturity have nothing to do with cursing (I will however grant that most people use the concept of "judgement" in ways that are not it's definition. If you intend to mean judgement as a measuring of your words, then I suppose you could call it poor judgement, but please bear in mind that this is not what the word judgement means).
I'm not a linguist, so I can't comment on linguistic studies. However, those who can't or won't conform to basic standards of societal norms (i.e. that cursing isn't socially acceptable) are making a statement, consciously or not, that they are the kind of person who nonchalantly breaks societal norms. Ergo, they are displaying poor judgement, immaturity, or bad social skills.
Personally, I find indiscriminate public cussing about as odious a habit as picking one's nose in public. Everybody does it, but there's a time and a place. And, believe me, I'm pretty sure that my opinion is in the majority, at least in my geographic area, of people over 30.
In general, when I hear a person use four-letter words indiscriminately, my impression of that person goes down, and quickly.This is a judgement made by the recipient. I would like people to realize that your judgement of others does not make you correct.
Yes, this is indeed a judgement call. It's called a first impression. Other observed behavior will come into play to alter opinion. And context matters: it's one thing in the locker room at the gym, or at a bar at 1AM, or spinning yarns around a campfire in the woods. It's quite another thing entirely if it's at an Applebees at 6:30 PM and there are a bunch of little kids around. See my nose-picking analogy above.
Real-life example: I *NEVER* hire anyone who swears during a job interview, or who I overhear cussing while I'm eavesdropping on applicants' conversations with my admin staff. Even if they are the best-qualified applicant. Even it it's for positions with no public presence.This... seems like you are using your personal judgements of others as a measure when put in a position of control. This is dictatorial and irresponsible with the position you've been given. When in the responsible job of hiring, the quality of the applicant to perform the job at hand should be your only concern (yes, the applicant's ability to socialize with his coworkers still counts as his ability to...
No, I'm acting in the best interest of my company. I've had to fire staff and then go in damage control mode more than once because of customer complaints of employees swearing on the job (for example, for swearing at a customer he thought was "on hold" but the line was live). Replacing trained employees is expensive and a waste of resources. I can train staff on technical skills easily enough; it's the personal skills (or lack thereof) that I can't train, and would rather just avoid by not hiring people who can't behave themselves in public.
Appropriate use of profanity (i.e. "none") in a professional situation is a very basic litmus test of a whole set of other life skills. It's certainly not the only one, but it's a HUGE red flag.
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This... seems like you are using your personal judgements of others as a measure when put in a position of control. This is dictatorial and irresponsible with the position you've been given.
Hmmm... to be blunt, the above statement is so out to lunch that it calls into question your credibility on anything else you might have posted in this thread.
It is certainly not irresponsible in any way, shape, or form - and anyone who has spent any length of time in a corporate environment would know that Haladir's policy is the correct policy.
customer complaints of employees swearing on the job
Even it it's for positions with no public presence.
These two things contradict one another and unfortunately I was operating entirely under the tent of the second.
At any point if you believe that a person's interactions with others will hinder the company, you are operating under every right and in the best interest of the company to consider it as a factor.
I am still getting the impression that you hold this as a "key" factor and particularly a HUGE red flag. I don't know you or your company, but I challenge you to consider if perhaps you are imposing your own morals into your decisions. You may not be... *shrug* but self evaluation is always a good thing.
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I rather doubt the former. I have an extensive vocabulary, however it is integral that one be understood when speaking. Making use of simpler more commonly known words, and one must admit swear words are widely known, ensures that both I and the person who I speak with understand what I am saying, whereas if I started referring to the player across from me as a brass bottomed strumpet it is fairly certain that while he or she may infer my intention they will not have the same degree of understanding if they lack my vocabulary.
You provide example of quite specific instance when someone with wider vocabulary adjusts to someone of (assumed) limited vocabulary. This pictures the complexities of communication but does not contradict that the cause of swearing is limited vocabulary, but in this case not the one who is speaking but the one who is listening.
In the case of the latter, yes somewhat. However I'd say that is a symptom of immaturity rather than a cause of it. In that case while you may assume that someone is immature due to their word usage it would not be logical to do so. Rather it would be the case that someone who is immature may use swears in the false belief that it makes them more mature, but the use of swears...
That's the point, overuse of swearing is symptom of immaturity. And like any symptoms it can be caused by different reasons than the perceived ones. It would be rather hard to view swearing as cause of immaturity.