So I'm thinking of taking a stab at a Summoner and I just wanted some advice. Now I understand what the their pet does (in the car so I don't want to take a stab at spelling it) but really what have people done with their summoner's actions. I looked through the spell list and noticed some good buff/debuff but is that all they really have? I'm just wondering if I'm missing a way to do damage as the actual Summoner. As if now I only see using a weapon or UMD as the only options. Also if anyone has builds I would be interested, I searched for a Summoner guide on here and did not see one.
Thanks
um...summons?
Summoning more, is to me one round maybe two of combat. It is significant but can not be all of your actions lol
The only way to do damage as the summoner is to take the Synthesist archetype. Otherwise the summoner acts as a support/buff character for their Eidelon. When the Eidelon isn't around they buff the party and summon monsters to support combat.
Essentially the summoner is a Conjuration specialist sorcerer with the addition of a supercharged druid animal companion.
Given the option I'd rather play a wizard conjurer with the master summoner SLA or at least some way to make his summons 1 min/lvl.
Past what Wargamer said I'd say pick up a crossbow.
Yeah the buff role was sorta the role I saw it but I was curious if people saw something I did not. So take augment summoning and then go where ever?
If you want options other than supporting your eidolon or summoning, you could:
- pick up the Antagonize feat.
- play a halfling with the jinx racial trait and pick feats that turn it into a decent debuff tool. Investing in Widen Spell, Area Jinx and Worst Case Jinx would give you a 10-ft. radius Cha-based burst that provides a decent debuff (-1 penalty to saving throws and minimizing any variable of a beneficial effect). You could even just take Worst Case Jinx and use it as a single-target debuff, considering you won't get much mileage out of Widen Spell.
- dip into another class, although giving up eidolon power isn't recommended.
You basically waste space until you can cast either haste or slow.
If you spent the feat on martial wep proficiency couldn't you make a decent archer. Not optimized at all but decent. Unless people have more suggestions on what to spend feats on
If you spent the feat on martial wep proficiency couldn't you make a decent archer. Not optimized at all but decent. Unless people have more suggestions on what to spend feats on
or elf or half elf with the weapon familiarity racial trait.
I run a Halfling Master Summoner, and I tend to keep my eidolon out as a small super-stealthy scouting skill monkey... so round 1 I'll summon into the midst of combat, round 2 I'll cast Haste, round 3 another summon if necessary or one of the pit spells... the entire time my eddy is using a wand of magic missile or scorching ray and after the third round I'll join him.
Even before I could cast Haste or Slow, I saved the group from TPK's at least once a session through summonings, sometimes steadily summoning every round.
The only way to do damage as the summoner is to take the Synthesist archetype. Otherwise the summoner acts as a support/buff character for their Eidelon. When the Eidelon isn't around they buff the party and summon monsters to support combat.
Essentially the summoner is a Conjuration specialist sorcerer with the addition of a supercharged druid animal companion.
Wrong. Very very wrong. I play a plain old Summoner with 16+ strength, and he does more damage than everyone else... This is just the summoner, not the eidolon (I use a Lance, ride my eidolon, then charge.)
At the lowest levels, you can spam Acid Splash -- it does relatively low damage, but it attacks touch AC rather than full AC.
Buffing your eidolon is the best use of most of your spells, but some of them can also be used on the party tanks. From 5th level on you should be ready to cast Evolution Surge (Lesser) to give your eidolon the ability to do bonus energy damage to whatever you are fighting as soon as you know what you are fighting and can pick an energy type that the enemy is vulnerable to (or at least not immune or resistant to).
Consider Enlarge Person if you have a Medium sized warrior with decent strength. Consider Reduce Person if you have a Small caster who makes a lot of ranged touch attacks (or if you are one yourself). Consider other buffs as appropriate to your party.
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Wrong. Very very wrong. I play a plain old Summoner with 16+ strength, and he does more damage than everyone else... This is just the summoner, not the eidolon (I use a Lance, ride my eidolon, then charge.)
Wrong. Very very wrong.
A real summoner lets his lances wielding eidolon ride him!
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Personally, I play a gnome Master Summoner with the Extra Summons feat, and I pepper the battlefield with lots of smaller minions. When I feel I have enough (usually two rounds of summoning 1d3+1 elementals), I start dropping Create Pit spells around the battlefield, or UMD with a wand of Magic Missle.
Some of the other options that I've went over with a normal summoner is to grab a decent melee weapon and start flanking with your eidolon. If you give it the reach evolution you can stay within it's reach while flanking so you still get the shield bonus to ac/saves. Arcane Strike is available to you, and you get haste earlier than anyone else. Round 1, haste yourself, your eidolon, and if you have enough targets left, your party, and then move into position with your eidolon (which can make at least one attack this round if you have him delay until after you). Round 2 and onward you just tag-team. Teamwork feats are a good way to go, especially outflank.
A small character can't put out as much damage early, but you can go the mounted combat route and always get shield ally. Maybe dip into fighter for one level for the proficiencies and the bonus feat.
So just wondering, why do people take master Summoner over regular? I mean isn't the real benefit of the Summoner the pet
Master summoner is the strongest type of summoner when it comes to group play.
He can simply do everything - a one man show if neccessary.
Can you give me examples? Just trying to expand my knowledge
So just wondering, why do people take master Summoner over regular? I mean isn't the real benefit of the Summoner the pet
You can 'break' the eidolon if you want to using the evolution points wisely... for me, summoning creatures - for minutes/level and as a standard action - is the most powerful class ability in the game. At 17th level I can summon 36 to 54 Augmented Elder Elementals a day before I use any of my buff or battlefield congtrol spells... that's just killer.
And for the record, having access to a free scout who's stealth and perception are off the charts, has darkvision and can communicate telepathically from 1st level? Yes, please... and as a reward I'll let him have a wand of fireballs to compliment all those Fire Elementals I keep summoning.
Can you give me examples? Just trying to expand my knowledge
When I get off of work I'll pop back on and give you just a few examples of the way I've game-changed for my group, even at lower levels. Honestly, I feel like the standard Summoner gimps himself a little because of an over-reliance on their eidolon.
My summoner is a dwarf and wields a hammer. He does as much damage as the Eido (that may change with second level). I did have to buy a crossbow though. An elf summoner can have a good bow-twanging goodness. 'Just a weapon' is a decent option.
Master Summoner lets the player bring a ton of critters. That means lots of flanking, lots of attacks and lots of damage. If you like to roll dice this is a good option. Also his lots of critters come in with the improved summoning bonus long before a regular summoner can qualify for it (OK a human could get it as quickly, but then again a human master summoner would have that and another feat. :)
My summoner is a dwarf and wields a hammer. He does as much damage as the Eido (that may change with second level). I did have to buy a crossbow though. An elf summoner can have a good bow-twanging goodness. 'Just a weapon' is a decent option.
Master Summoner lets the player bring a ton of critters. That means lots of flanking, lots of attacks and lots of damage. If you like to roll dice this is a good option. Also his lots of critters come in with the improved summoning bonus long before a regular summoner can qualify for it (OK a human could get it as quickly, but then again a human master summoner would have that and another feat. :)
A lot of people don't recognize the defensive value of a summoned creature. Every attack they absorb - whether it hits them or not - is an attack the PC's don't have to endure... fewer damaging attacks, fewer critical hits, fewer conditions to save against, fewer opportunities to be flanked and so on. We've had a fighter hold a doorway with my summoned creatures filling the gaps literally against an army while everyone else fell back, healed and made their escape. Just another example of saving the party from a TPK. As for myself, I got to 8th level before I took damage in combat.
I only summon elementals (for RP purposes), but that still lets me send earth elementals through castle or cavern walls or have them erupt out of the ground, lets me have air elementals fling archers from tower tops or capture enemy spellcasters in whirlwinds, rip down sails and masts and so on... the uses for them are literally endless.
So just wondering, why do people take master Summoner over regular? I mean isn't the real benefit of the Summoner the pet
It is a matter of what you want to play. I personally prefer the standard summoner because I want to have the most powerful "pet" possible.
Yeesh, I never noticed that the Master Summoner could pop his summoning SLA while his eidolon was present. No wonder they are considered the most powerful archetype.
Yeesh, I never noticed that the Master Summoner could pop his summoning SLA while his eidolon was present. No wonder they are considered the most powerful archetype.
Well, to be fair their eidolon is so severely gimped that he's essentially combat ineffective except as a flanker... unless you invest in some UMD as I do. And of course while the gimped eidolon is out, you can only have one Summoning spell active.
Master summoner is the strongest type of summoner when it comes to group play.
He can simply do everything - a one man show if neccessary.
So what's the difference between a Master Summoner and a Broodmaster?
So what's the difference between a Master Summoner and a Broodmaster?Master summoner is the strongest type of summoner when it comes to group play.
He can simply do everything - a one man show if neccessary.
One is arguably the strongest while the other is arguably the weakest. Broodmasters have a handful of very weak eidolons... Master Summoners have an almost unlimited number of much more powerful creatures at their disposal.
I always thought a fun character to run would be a Broodmaster-style Rogue who filled his brood with skilled evolutions and then used them to pull off jobs.
I always thought a fun character to run would be a Broodmaster-style Rogue who filled his brood with skilled evolutions and then used them to pull off jobs.
Nice :)
Though UMD does bring some nice options in as well. fire elemental fire ball much? (and summon monster III can be wanded :)
So for a cohort what would people suggest? The master or regular, the main character being a gunslinger
I always thought a fun character to run would be a Broodmaster-style Rogue who filled his brood with skilled evolutions and then used them to pull off jobs.Nice :)
Yeah, maybe give him a level of Bard, let him pose as a street performer with minor illusions at his disposal while he cases a joint... it'd be a solo-type character with only occaisional combat, but could be a lot of fun to play.
Just as a courtesy to your group I would stick to a straight Summoner unless they are okay waiting for your to resolve the actions of all your summoned monsters or if you and them are okay with them taking the reigns on controlling some of the summoned monsters. Even with the straight summoner assuming a party of four starting out you now effectively have a party of six with three of them being you.
TL;DR talk it over with your group.
Just as a courtesy to your group I would stick to a straight Summoner unless they are okay waiting for your to resolve the actions of all your summoned monsters or if you and them are okay with them taking the reigns on controlling some of the summoned monsters. Even with the straight summoner assuming a party of four starting out you now effectively have a party of six with tree of them being you.
TL;DR take it over with your group.
I think the spamming of Summoned monsters is an over-used tactic. When running my master summoner I tend to keep my eddy out and summon one monster at a time, placing him to the tactical benefit of my melee combatants whenever its predesessor is destroyed. I'm not one for burning through resources needlessly.
Good point, I don't want to take up all the time. So is eidolon build usually just stack as many attacks as the limit allows. With the extras in fun things like trip
My favorite part of the summoner is the flexibility an evolution pool offers. Not only do you get to choose things like push, pull, reach etc. but you can also define those with tentacles, cat claws, lobster claws, fourteen legs, bat wings cyclops etc. It would be cool if characters could be point buy like this as well (though it does make a level up game difficult). the UM has some sample eido model builds to look at.
I hate it when I can't tell who is responding to who.
Thats actually not true. A pure summoner is the strongest for summons but it weakens your pet which is actually way scarier than summon 1-5
Perhaps, but is it 'way scarier' than 3 or 4 Summons I-V, plus a weakened pet hitting you with wand attacks? Trust me, a Master Summoner wipes the floor with all but the most broken of standard Summoner Eidolons and still has much more versatility.
Good point, I don't want to take up all the time. So is eidolon build usually just stack as many attacks as the limit allows. With the extras in fun things like trip
Um... are you asking about building a standard Summoner because you're worried about a Master Summoners many summoned monsters? If so, please refer to my post on keeping your eddy out and summoning one creature at a time.
As far as building an Eidolon for a standard Summoner, it takes a great deal more thought than simply stacking up attacks, and that's not counting things like allowing for Aspect or a Half-Elf's bonus evolutions. I have one that I love, I use it/her as a recurring villian for my party, and she's plenty powerful without getting into the multiple greatswords + maxed-out natural attacks cheese.
I read somewhere about being able to have your eidolon and SM out long as you cast summon monster (class ability) before you summon the eidolon. Is that just cheese or correct and based off ability to plan?
So just wondering, why do people take master Summoner over regular? I mean isn't the real benefit of the Summoner the petNot always. I've played my summoner various ways. For one module my actual main play was the standard action summons. The Master Summoner improves on that with his ability to spam them. Too many forget that the Eidolon is not the ONLY feature of the class, that you can play the summoner quite effectively and all but ditch the eidolon together. It's just a different play style.
Agreed. Its kind of like saying that Fighters who focus on the bow instead of melee combat are gimped... simply not true.
I read somewhere about being able to have your eidolon and SM out long as you cast summon monster (class ability) before you summon the eidolon. Is that just cheese or correct and based off ability to plan?
I've never read that.
You CAN cast Summon Monster as the spell as many times as you want regardless of whether or not you have your eidolon out, but that is a much weaker and less effective version of it than the class ability - plus you're burning spells lots better used in other ways.
Though UMD does bring some nice options in as well. fire elemental fire ball much? (and summon monster III can be wanded :)
I just realized summon monster III is not on the spell list for summoners. Neither is Summon Monster VI. Is this correct or is the PRD in error? If so my summoner could not actually use a wand of Monster III (without a UMD Check).
EDIT: Ok summon monster spell like ability counts for spell completion, so one could use a wand. One could not 'learn' those three
. (thanks lazerX)
Divide and conquer with their buffs, summons, and imperial legion of minions at their disposal.
Thanks LazarX, that is what I was wondering. It almost sounds like Summoner is something I would rather play as a main.
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As if now I only see using a weapon or UMD as the only options.
A grease spell is a decent bit of control at 1st level. As a summoner, you'll likely want Augment Summoning anyway, so you'll probably have Spell Focus (conjuration), which will make the grease more usable. You might find enlarge person a popular choice, depending on party composition.
At 4th level, haste and glitterdust are good choices.
There aren't a ton of damaging spells, and the ones there are, such as corrosive touch I wouldn't be all that interested in, myself.
Depending on the party, picking up infernal healing as one of your first level spells can provide some handy utility.