Yeah, I'm back...
So I have decided to go with a greatsword wielding Paladin for my first PFS Character. I had thought about a TWF Paladin but based on the advice I got here and my own reflection it is sub-optimal and it is in my nature to optimize. So, I have what I think is a good start for a Two Handed build but I am looking for some advice on how to scale feats, stats, etc.
Here is what I have
Name: Domallius Veneloric
Class: Paladin - 1
Race: Human
STR 18
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 7
CHA 15
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus: Greatsword
Skills: Diplomacy, Craft (Armor) (for day job), Perception.
Thanks in advance!
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Here is what I have
Name: Domallius Veneloric
Class: Paladin - 1
Race: HumanSTR 18
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 7
CHA 15Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus: Greatsword
Skills: Diplomacy, Craft (Armor) (for day job), Perception.
Go Power Attack instead of either Weapon Focus or Toughness. You can re-grab either of them later, and it's a better Feat.
As you go up in level, you'll also want Furious Focus. Beyond those two, your Feat choices are really up to you...whatever you choose will be pretty effective.
Skill-wise, as you level, I'd not waste a lt of ranks on Craft. It doesn't hurt to throw one rank in (though I'd grab something else at 1st personally) but the Gold from it is always gonna be loose change, so don't invest a lot in getting it. Instead, grab a rank in Knowledge (Religion), Sense Motive, and other class skills that are appropriate thematically, and where a rank can't hurt.
Trait-wise, I'd grab Reactionary, and whatever else strikes your fancy. I mean really, it's a simple build to make pretty much optimal.
Gear-wise, you want Full Plate as soon as possible, obviously.
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I don't think it's necessary to dump wisdom down so low. You are also removing the possibility of using Unsanctioned Knowledge with only a 10 int. I would change your point-buy as follows: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 14.
I would also suggest swapping Weapon Focus for Power Attack, as it has a lot more bang right now. If you want a neat trait, Blade of Mercy will let you do non-lethal damage with any slashing weapon.
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I don't think it's necessary to dump wisdom down so low. You are also removing the possibility of using Unsanctioned Knowledge with only a 10 int. I would change your point-buy as follows: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 14.
I would also suggest swapping Weapon Focus for Power Attack, as it has a lot more bang right now. If you want a neat trait, Blade of Mercy will let you do non-lethal damage with any slashing weapon.
Why such a high dex? I would have made that the dump stat (if I had to have one) since Im going to be covered head to toe in armor. As of now, with an 8 wis, one good sleep spell or charm person is going to have the biggest sword in the room out of play for the pc's.
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Why such a high dex? I would have made that the dump stat (if I had to have one) since Im going to be covered head to toe in armor. As of now, with an 8 wis, one good sleep spell or charm person is going to have the biggest sword in the room out of play for the pc's.I don't think it's necessary to dump wisdom down so low. You are also removing the possibility of using Unsanctioned Knowledge with only a 10 int. I would change your point-buy as follows: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 14.
I would also suggest swapping Weapon Focus for Power Attack, as it has a lot more bang right now. If you want a neat trait, Blade of Mercy will let you do non-lethal damage with any slashing weapon.
12 is perfect for full plate. With a belt of physical perfection, it will be perfect for mithral. Wis to 8 at level one is fine because at level two his will save will be +4.
I don't think it's necessary to dump wisdom down so low. You are also removing the possibility of using Unsanctioned Knowledge with only a 10 int. I would change your point-buy as follows: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 14.
I would also suggest swapping Weapon Focus for Power Attack, as it has a lot more bang right now. If you want a neat trait, Blade of Mercy will let you do non-lethal damage with any slashing weapon.
What spells would you suggest?
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I second that a Day Job isn't worth spending your precious few skill points on in Pathfinder Society. If you really want it for flavor (I do have some PFS characters with Profession and such), I would recommend one rank and then going in a different direction. If you are attached to the idea of a Day Job, think about taking performance and taking advantage of your high Charisma. I could see a Poet Paladin, or perhaps a great Orator. You could be Roy Rogers, the Singing Paladin.
You might instead consider taking the trait that makes UMD a class skill and taking advantage of your Charisma there. You could have wands of enlarge person later for a nice precombat buff. Shield would be a great spell for a two handed Paladin.
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Keep in mind also on the day job front that you can in fact day job with Diplomacy for five prestige points. If you're going to keep it maxed out anyway, feel free to grab some extra cash for it.
If you were to drop Craft and drop your intellect down to 7, you wouldn't be able to take Unsanctioned Knowledge (which is by the way an amazing feat), but you would be able to raise your strength score a bit.
Phazzle, any chance that we can see what you came up with?
Not sure what you are asking. There is a stat block in the first post.
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I'm going to second Mergy's mention of Unsanctioned Knowledge. It's an amazing feat, one which I don't think I could ever skip out on.
As an alternative to Oath of Vengeance, I often consider Oath against the Wyrm, mostly for spell selection (Enlarge Person, Fly, & STONESKIN), but the abilities aren't that bad, either.
Stat-wise, I would recommend:
Str. 16, Dex. 12, Con. 10, Int 13, Wis. 10, Cha. 16(including +2 Human)
I really don't see the need for any Constitution Modifier for a Paladin. It's nice for Fortitude saves, but with 16 Charisma instead of 14, you get an extra use of Lay on Hands at level 2, which is more average HP/day than that Constitution bonus, and continues to scale higher. The Dex. bonus helps bolster your weakest Paladin save AND grants you higher initiative and AC. Int. 13 qualifies you for Unsanctioned Knowledge, and with no Dump Stats and a higher Charisma, your saves stay decent across all levels.
This is the build I generally use, and it works throughout all levels. Str. 16 is plenty high starting off, and you still get that great Smite Evil bonus when you need it. Take Power Attack + Furious Focus, or Power Attack + Weapon Focus, and you're good to go.
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I'm going to second Mergy's mention of Unsanctioned Knowledge. It's an amazing feat, one which I don't think I could ever skip out on.
As an alternative to Oath of Vengeance, I often consider Oath against the Wyrm, mostly for spell selection (Enlarge Person, Fly, & STONESKIN), but the abilities aren't that bad, either.
Stat-wise, I would recommend:
Str. 16, Dex. 12, Con. 10, Int 13, Wis. 10, Cha. 16(including +2 Human)
I really don't see the need for any Constitution Modifier for a Paladin. It's nice for Fortitude saves, but with 16 Charisma instead of 14, you get an extra use of Lay on Hands at level 2, which is more average HP/day than that Constitution bonus, and continues to scale higher. The Dex. bonus helps bolster your weakest Paladin save AND grants you higher initiative and AC. Int. 13 qualifies you for Unsanctioned Knowledge, and with no Dump Stats and a higher Charisma, your saves stay decent across all levels.
This is the build I generally use, and it works throughout all levels. Str. 16 is plenty high starting off, and you still get that great Smite Evil bonus when you need it. Take Power Attack + Furious Focus, or Power Attack + Weapon Focus, and you're good to go.
I would say constitution over dexterity for a paladin, because of lay on hands. You want a large pool of hit points to draw from so that you aren't brought down before you can heal yourself.
I would also say strength over charisma. Charisma helps out saves, lay on hands, and attack rolls while smiting; strength covers attack rolls and damage rolls all the time. The paladin isn't a primary spellcaster, and if you want to go into melee, you should prepare his stats for it.
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I would say constitution over dexterity for a paladin, because of lay on hands. You want a large pool of hit points to draw from so that you aren't brought down before you can heal yourself.
I would also say strength over charisma. Charisma helps out saves, lay on hands, and attack rolls while smiting; strength covers attack rolls and damage rolls all the time. The paladin isn't a primary spellcaster, and if you want to go into melee, you should prepare his stats for it.
At this point it's pretty much a matter of personal preference. I've never needed above a 16 for pretty much any class to start off, and I feel that the trade off (better saves, more lay on hands, smite AC bonus, better social skills) is easily worth it to have a perfectly serviceable strength of 16. But, again, to each his own. I may not think it's worth it, but I can admit that it's still a great build, just with a different goal in mind.
@james maissen: One of the main aspects of PFS is the changing nature of the party. You may never know what kind of characters will be at the table, so it's best for every person to be prepared. Unsanctioned Knowledge provides a way for the Paladin to be ready for a wide variety of situations, while freeing up caster spell slots for other things if they are present. It's a win/win/win. (and where are you getting 7 attribute points from? I count 3.)
*peeks at thread title*
Its totally against the paladin code to have two hands.
:p
-S
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A falchion may end up being a better weapon for you than the great sword, especially when smiting. Its not a huge deal though.
This is a great suggestions. By level 6-8 you can make this keen and will dominate encounters, especially when smiting.
But I say get power attack early. Seeing people gape as you mash things to bits dealing 2d4+9 damage (with falchion) at 1st level never gets old :)
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Lots of good feedback in here already, and I haven't really worked on paladins too much, but I will give a piece of generic PFS advice:
Avoid having an 18 at 1st level.
It's almost always better to have a 17 (from a 15+2 racial) and then use your 4th level stat boost to hit 18 than to start with an 18.
And that's about all I can say. Good luck, and have fun!
Toughness is basically worthless for a Paladin. You can heal yourself as a swift action, which will heal 3.5 hit points per 2 levels. Toughness is 3 hit points at 1st level. Lay on hands you'll be doing at least 3 times per day. If you need more hit points, extra lay on hands is the feat to take.
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Toughness is basically worthless for a Paladin. You can heal yourself as a swift action, which will heal 3.5 hit points per 2 levels. Toughness is 3 hit points at 1st level. Lay on hands you'll be doing at least 3 times per day. If you need more hit points, extra lay on hands is the feat to take.
Strongly disagree. Your pool of hit points is what lets you use lay on hands. You want that pool as large as possible. By all means get both, but don't skip on the amazing feat for the one that lets you heal yourself a few more times.
I definately prefer playing two-handed Paladins. Otherwise, it can be difficult to pick up larger objects.
Thanks for all of the input. I am not too hot on Unsanctioned Knowledge. I appreciate the point about versatility but I dont want to waste time in combat casting spells and I dont want to dump that much into Int. I want the character to be a front line damage dealer that can take a ton of punishment while dealing out insane amounts of damage and ridiculous amounts of damage when smiting. I see the point about boosting STR to 18. Point taken. DEX also seems like it is a bit less important as well as CON. That gives me quite a lot to play around with. So...
STR 17
DEX 10
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16
Feats: Weapon Focus (Something), Power Attack
The above gives me a lot of healing from LoH without the disadvantages of dumping stats and great saves. At second level my saves will be 7/3/6 and I will have 20 hit points and 4 LoH/day. I will have a respectable attack bonus and will be putting out a great deal of damage +5 (XdX + 7) when power attacking.
Later on down the line I can decide where to put my higher level feats.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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STR 17
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16
I must have missed your race choice, but if you're human/half-XXX, then move your +2 from CHA to STR. Saves you a point:
STR 17 (15+2)
DEX 10
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16
Now your CHA and STR are exactly what they were in your post, but your CON is higher. That's 1 more point of damage needed to kill you, and your 8th level stat bump can take CON to 14 and retroactively increase your HP.
That's only 19 points.
Good catch. I did it quick. You see where I am going with it
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one bit of advice, dont use a great sword use a glave-gusarme and combat reflexes. i deal an insane ammount of damage at low levels capitializing on aoo's and positioning.
the damage is only 2 points different, so if you care about dealing more attacks, for better damage over all, i would change from greatsword to the glave-gusarme.
now i would move 2 points from my con to my dex for ac, reflex, and one more aoo per round. the reason why i say con is "less important" is because you have access to swift action healing at level 2. that means you technically have more hp then any other person in your party.
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Well the advice given here has been good, though it has gotten a bit nit-picky into the area of optimization.
I currently have an 8th level GreatSword wielding Paladin in PFS and all I will say is that you might actually want to back off the optimization a little. My paladin has rarely ever been challenged. Heck I get excited if he ever takes enough damage to justify a lay on hands.
Truth is that if you optimize too much in PFS you easily blow passed the power level and if you are not careful decrease the level of fun.
Just food for thought.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Well the advice given here has been good, though it has gotten a bit nit-picky into the area of optimization.
I currently have an 8th level GreatSword wielding Paladin in PFS and all I will say is that you might actually want to back off the optimization a little. My paladin has rarely ever been challenged. Heck I get excited if he ever takes enough damage to justify a lay on hands.
Truth is that if you optimize too much in PFS you easily blow passed the power level and if you are not careful decrease the level of fun.
Just food for thought.
This can be true. I think perhaps moreso for a greatsword-style paladin. It's really easy to optimize damage for a greatsword: have full BAB and use Power Attack. Done!
Meanwhile, the paladin gets to use heavy armor and has fantastic defensive abilities.
Oh look, now you have both offense and defense!
With that in mind, you might consider aiming for group-friendly optimization, like being able to rid your allies of debilitating afflictions, or being good with social skills, etc.
I would suggest Furious Focus over weapon focus (at least initially). At first level Power Attack is -1 while weapon focus is +1 for a net of +0. Furious Focus does the same thing (cancels the penalty of Power Attack) and will serve you better in the long run (as well as not limiting you to a single type of 2handed weapon yet). - Gauss
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I recently started a 2H Pally (Oath of Vengeance) for PFS and thought I'd glom onto this thread with a Q or 2:
1) Thoughts on radiant charge? (Pretty much for end-of-day or scenario-ending combats)
2) I'm thinking of going up the chain to Cleaving Finish--the main idea being to focus on dropping a baddie and then getting to spread the love. Practical? Come up enough with 2H melee type to be useful?
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I recently started a 2H Pally (Oath of Vengeance) for PFS and thought I'd glom onto this thread with a Q or 2:
1) Thoughts on radiant charge? (Pretty much for end-of-day or scenario-ending combats)
2) I'm thinking of going up the chain to Cleaving Finish--the main idea being to focus on dropping a baddie and then getting to spread the love. Practical? Come up enough with 2H melee type to be useful?
i played this about 1 year ago, it demolished everything. reach weapon + combat reflexes + improved cleaving finish is just nuts.
James Maissen:
I ran the numbers and made a nice huge post about it...and just LOST IT ARGH!!!
Premise:
Strength 17 (upgrades by level (as normal) and enhancement: +2@5, +4@11, +6@14)
Charisma 16 (upgrades by enhancement: +2@8, +4@12, +6@14)
Weapon (Greatsword) enhancement (MW@2, +1@4, +2@8, +3@11, +4@13, +5@16)
Feats:
Power Attack and Weapon Focus OR Furious Focus @1
Vital Strike tree @7, 11, and 17
Devastating strike @13
Imp. Critical @9
Remaining Feats: 3, 5, 15, 19
I wont bother reposting all the numbers I had posted Ill just summarize:
Without smite Furious Focus+single attack wins on levels 4-20 (up to 19.95DPR) and ties levels 1-3.
Without smite Furious Focus+full attack wins on levels 4-5, 8-10, and 12-20 (up to 5.16DPR) and ties levels 1-3, 6-7, and 11.
WITH smite Furious Focus+single attack wins on levels 4-12(up to4.9DPR) and ties on levels 1-3 and 13-20.
WITH smite Furious Focus+full attack wins on levels 4-5 and 8-10 (up to 2.04DPR). Ties on levels 1-3 and 6-7. Loses on levels 11-20 (up to 11.34DPR).
Summary: Weapon Focus is only superior from levels 11-20 when using smite. Clearly though having both is better still and I would reccomend taking Weapon Focus at level 5 if not 3.
- Gauss
Edit: Reason for the results: When the accuracy for single attacks hits without furious focus 95% then the two are equal. Full attacks are more complicated but in general the first attack is the lionshare of the damage until you get into smite territory which dramatically increases the effectiveness of the remaining attacks.
Edit2: Yes, I know alot of people prefer other 2handed weapons to the greatsword. However, it is pretty standard so I use that as the normal baseline.
James maissen: I did not make a premise based on a single attack. I listed Single without smite, Single with Smite AND I listed full attack without smite AND full attack with Smite. How is that a flawed premise?
- Gauss
A Repost of numbers:
Furious Focus vs Weapon Focus
@1 10.01 vs 10.01
@2 10.01 vs 10.01
@3 10.01 vs 10.01
@4 14.30 vs 13.20
@5 16.17 vs 15.02
@6 16.17 vs 15.02
@7 21.07 vs 19.57
@8 25.88 vs 22.43
@9 25.90 vs 22.20
@10 25.90 vs 22.20
@11 38.08 vs 33.32
@12 41.92 vs 34.06
@13 49.64 vs 40.88
@14 54.72 vs 45.60
@15 54.72 vs 45.60
@16 64.60 vs 51.00
@17 71.25 vs 56.25
@18 71.25 vs 56.25
@19 71.25 vs 56.25
@20 75.81 vs 55.86
Furious Focus vs Weapon Focus
@1 13.20 vs 13.20
@2 14.08 vs 14.08
@3 14.96 vs 14.96
@4 21.12 vs 19.80
@5 24.31 vs 22.88
@6 25.25 vs 23.76
@7 32.13 vs 30.24
@8 41.14 vs 36.81
@9 43.02 vs 38.24
@10 44.10 vs 39.20
@11 57.76 vs 54.72
@12 63.46 vs 60.12
@13 70.30 vs 70.30
@14 73.72 vs 73.72
@15 74.86 vs 74.86
@16 82.84 vs 82.84
@17 90.63 vs 90.63
@18 91.77 vs 91.77
@19 92.91 vs 92.91
@20 98.61 vs 98.61
Furious Focus vs Weapon Focus
@1 10.01 vs 10.01
@2 10.01 vs 10.01
@3 10.01 vs 10.01
@4 14.30 vs 13.20
@5 16.17 vs 15.02
@6 24.26 vs 24.26
@7 24.26 vs 24.26
@8 30.25 vs 28.88
@9 30.00 vs 28.50
@10 30.00 vs 28.50
@11 45.36 vs 45.36
@12 48.00 vs 46.08
@13 55.44 vs 53.46
@14 65.10 vs 63.00
@15 65.10 vs 63.00
@16 72.54 vs 70.20
@17 72.54 vs 70.20
@18 72.54 vs 70.20
@19 72.54 vs 70.20
@20 72.24 vs 67.08
Furious Focus vs Weapon Focus
@1 13.20 vs 13.20
@2 14.08 vs 14.08
@3 14.96 vs 14.96
@4 21.12 vs 19.80
@5 24.31 vs 22.88
@6 40.10 vs 40.10
@7 41.58 vs 41.58
@8 54.45 vs 52.64
@9 57.12 vs 55.08
@10 58.80 vs 56.70
@11 88.92 vs 91.26
@12 100.32 vs 102.96
@13 110.40 vs 115.92
@14 129.36 vs 135.24
@15 132.00 vs 138.00
@16 161.70 vs 171.60
@17 164.64 vs 174.72
@18 167.58 vs 177.84
@19 170.52 vs 180.96
@20 173.88 vs 185.22
What me previous two data posts show are that for a 2handed paladin, not including smite evil, Furious Focus is superior to Weapon Focus. When using Smite Evil Weapon Focus is superior from levels 11-20 for full attacks only.
If there is a problem with my premise (stats, magic items, feats) let me know and I can provide different data based on your premise. Of course, both feats together are superior to either one individually.
- Gauss
Did you include average AC?
Seems like you didnt actually what makes these numberes not really helpful. Average DR and stuff should be considered as well.
90% of all the numbers I see on that board are flawed and do not really show what you're actually looking for.
Break down the numbers of every level for any possible AC and highlight the average AC of each level. In addition to that you should maybe bring the numbers for hasted as well as you fight hasted most of the time at higher levels.
Now find a way to normalize these numbers and you have a short list that can show you everything you want to know on first view.
The closer you are at actual gameplay the more you will help with those numbers. But such a list of flat numbers is not really helpful.