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I was looking at the capabilities of counterspells, and as it stands, it seems woefully ineffective and situational. I understand it's a matter of trying to add depth to spellcasting, but why not just ready an action to fling a fireball, lightning bolt, scorching ray, or any other decently powered spell at the enemy casters face?
You don't need to make a spellcraft check this way, you damage the caster, AND the damage dealt by the spell sky-rockets the concentration check to something the target would have to roll REALLY high on (are natural 20's on a concentration check an auto-success?).
Am I just missing something here? Has this discussion already popped up?
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Because what if you don't want to blow up the fighter or paladin you have standing near that other caster?
I think Natural 20s and 1s are auto successes or failures on attacks. You can roll a 20 and still fail a skill check to my knowledge.
Then I'll cast a ranged touch attack on the target, which shouldn't risk the friendlies at all. And I don't think a Concentration check is a skill check.
In all the years I've played 3.x/Pathfinder, I've never seen someone counterspell. I don't recall anyone even mentioning they passed up the opportunity and as a caster, I can't recall ever having the opportunity. (Though I don't remember anyone taking the improved counterspell feat either.)
The only good rules in DnD/PF I have seen for counterspelling come from the Spell Duels section of Ultimate Magic. My group has adopted them wholesale as counterspelling rules in normal play.
It still hasn't seen the light of day, but the rules are much better if anyone decided to build a counterspeller.
As it currently stands, its only really useful if you /know/ they can and will cast some devastating spell that you can stop.
Like a mass heal or heal or something they can get past your abilities to hit them or something.
By and large though you have no way of knowing what spells they have prepared or can cast so its far more likely you "read an action" to do nothing that round.
I'd far rather it be an immediate action to counterspell that also took up your entire round of actions.
That at least would give you the option of doing it, without the (incredible) chance of readying an action to twiddle your thumbs that round.
-S
are natural 20's on a concentration check an auto-success?
Nope.
Anything with auto-success on a 20 will say it's auto-success on a 20.
Saving Throws specify. Attack Rolls specify. Stabilization and recovery checks specify, etc.
As for counterspell, it's handy when you really don't want a guy to cast a spell. Your attack has to damage him to disrupt him, maybe he's got defensive spells up. He might absorb your lighting bolt, or deflect your ray. It's pretty easy to get a high Spellcraft skill.
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Counter spelling is a handy GM tool, where the Villain has been spying on the PCs for some time. He can then shut down some of the major spells from the caster and have the party captured and tied up as he monologues about his plan for world domination.
Then I'll cast a ranged touch attack on the target, which shouldn't risk the friendlies at all. And I don't think a Concentration check is a skill check.Because what if you don't want to blow up the fighter or paladin you have standing near that other caster?
I think Natural 20s and 1s are auto successes or failures on attacks. You can roll a 20 and still fail a skill check to my knowledge.
Ranged touch, you might miss. Got Improved Counterspell and a wide variety of schools memorized? You counter the spell--no save, nothing. This is one of those times when an arcane bond is solid gold--1 free counterspell.
This saves the melee team from whatever nastiness the enemy caster had in store, giving them a free turn to slice and dice. One round advantage is often more than enough when fighting a caster.
Besides, it really pisses the other guy off when they try chucking a lightning bolt at you and you just wiggle your finger and say "LOL NO".
Also, high-level mystic theurge loves counterspell--they can still chuck a spell at you while they counter you from two huge spell lists.
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Also, high-level mystic theurge loves counterspell--they can still chuck a spell at you while they counter you from two huge spell lists.
Especially one packed to the gills with Dispel Magic.
Sela Kurn LOVES to counterspell.
Also, high-level mystic theurge loves counterspell--they can still chuck a spell at you while they counter you from two huge spell lists.Especially one packed to the gills with Dispel Magic.
That too. But if they want a guaranteed counter, if they have Improved Counterspell, odds are they have an appropriate spell available with which to do it.
Edit: Ravingdork, Sela has a nice portrait.
i have used it with my magician bard, and it has actually been quite effective, however you need to burn a feat in improved counter spell. It is situational and you have know when to use it. Facing a magic user BBEG it can be great. But it is not something for a blaster wizard
I can see DM'ing a NPC that counter spells the party. I used to do it with Dispel Magic spells back in 3.0/5
Now as a Wizard, I would rather blast the enemy with a offensive spell to disrupt the spell or use spell craft to counter with a globe of inv or a protection from energy, something like that I guess.
In the end though, as a PC I would pass up the counter spell unless I'm preparing to fight a BIG BIG BADDY spell caster.
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Ravingdork, Sela has a nice portrait.
He has nice stats and abilities too.
Due to Spell Perfection, all of Sela's feats grant twice their normal bonus to greater dispel magic. Therefore, Spell Specialization grants a +4 bonus and Varisian Tattoo grants a +2 bonus to caster level when casting greater dispel magic.
15 Base CL
04 Spell Specialization
02 Varisian Tatoo
01 Ioun Stone
22 TOTAL CL
This means he is 35% more likely to dispel buffs than your average spellcaster. It also means that he beats most equal leveled casters' spells on a roll of 4 or higher. Saves, resistances, immunities, and spell resistance don't help prevent it.
***
Some notable things about the character:
- He knows every core spell of 8th-level and lower. This makes arcane bond especially powerful as he is literally ready for ANY situation, if only for once a day. It's his get out of jail free card.
- He is an abjurer. I built him like one. He has a lot of resistances. defenses, and immunities. I've built him with as many long term buffs as I could find, most of which are included in the stats. He is also capable of buffing further for long periods of time with his many 10 mins/CL spells (such as heroism and spell turning). Those last over two and a half hours! They are always cast before entering dark scary areas. After all, it makes no sense for an abjurer to not be buffed in advance. It's kind of their thing. Also, he has moment of prescience pre-cast allowing for a free +16 bonus to single attack roll, combat maneuver check, opposed ability or skill check, saving throw, or Armor Class. Another get out of jail free card.
- He has a caster's tattoo. That let's him silence AND still one 6th-level or lower spell once per day as a swift action. It is yet another get out of jail free card.
- He can cast a widened selective greater dispel magic with only a 7th-level slot. An awesome mass debuff that doesn't effect his allies or summons. He could potentially stun-lock a small army of otherwise buffed minions.
***
When I think of Sela in combat, I think of him as a tactical genius (because that's exactly what he is). If ever caught unprepared for any reason (unlikely in its own right), he will start combat by using elemental body IV to turn into a huge earth elemental (essentially, a giant animated stone stature version of himself). He would then earthglide into the ground for near total protection.
While so protected, he would cast needed buffs as necessary, followed by summon monster VIII to conjure a gang of huge earth elementals that also look like giant statuesque versions of him. (Note that elementals don't have a set form and summoning them and making this arrangement in advance is perfectly sensible for a tactical genius.)
He can either join the fray, using his disguise, bodyguards, and once per day silent/stilled greater dispel magic (so as to not give himself away) to get an advantage against his enemies. Alternatively, he can just let his goons wear down the enemy, only appearing when the elementals have been destroyed and his enemies are that much weaker for their troubles.
The only thing that trumps this strategy is true seeing. Short of having that spell, this ought to confuse most enemies for some time--especially if he and his elementals go underground and reemerge in different positions whenever someone is lucky enough to determine which of the animated statues is really him.
***
The penalty applied by the Dispel Synergy feat stacks with itself. If Sela dispels 5 ongoing spells on a target, said target would suffer a whopping -10 penalty to saves against Sela's spells until the end of his next turn (which, since he can quickened greater dispel magic, means he might get in as many as three save or screw spells before the penalty wears off).
The Destructive Dispel feat might similarly force multiple saves against being stunned if he succeeds at dispelling multiple spells on a target.
The former absolutely works. However, the latter is a bit more debatable as it triggers on a successful check, and you only make one check, but have the possibility of succeeding more than once.
I was looking at the capabilities of counterspells, and as it stands, it seems woefully ineffective and situational. I understand it's a matter of trying to add depth to spellcasting, but why not just ready an action to fling a fireball, lightning bolt, scorching ray, or any other decently powered spell at the enemy casters face?
You don't need to make a spellcraft check this way, you damage the caster, AND the damage dealt by the spell sky-rockets the concentration check to something the target would have to roll REALLY high on (are natural 20's on a concentration check an auto-success?).
Am I just missing something here? Has this discussion already popped up?
No, you are correct. Counterspelling is fail. Book of Harms + Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, or Lightning Bolt is counterspelling done right.
Ravingdork, Sela has a nice portrait.He has nice stats and abilities too.
** spoiler omitted **...
I used something similar, but I went with a Thassalonian specialist and shadowcaster on it as well -- the PC's hated that guy.
I wouldn't rely on damage to disrupt a spell caster. Stone Skin alone knocks the dc down. Interposing hand gives cover. I would much rather counter the Dominate spell that will turn the melee guys against me.
Unless they are wearing a brooch of shielding, or have a lesser globe of invulnerability up, are protected by blur or displacement, or have any one of many different options at their disposal that negates your attack.
In that case, counterspelling might well be your only option, other than sucking up the bad guys spell.
Master Arminas
Unless they are wearing a brooch of shielding, or have a lesser globe of invulnerability up, are protected by blur or displacement, or have any one of many different options at their disposal that negates your attack.
In that case, counterspelling might well be your only option, other than sucking up the bad guys spell.
Master Arminas
Point of Interest -- Blur and displacement do jack-all against magic missile.
Point of Interest -- Blur and displacement do jack-all against magic missile.Unless they are wearing a brooch of shielding, or have a lesser globe of invulnerability up, are protected by blur or displacement, or have any one of many different options at their disposal that negates your attack.
In that case, counterspelling might well be your only option, other than sucking up the bad guys spell.
Master Arminas
But the more commonly cast shield, or an amulet of shielding, stops it cold.
Point of Interest -- Blur and displacement do jack-all against magic missile.Unless they are wearing a brooch of shielding, or have a lesser globe of invulnerability up, are protected by blur or displacement, or have any one of many different options at their disposal that negates your attack.
In that case, counterspelling might well be your only option, other than sucking up the bad guys spell.
Master Arminas
True, but I expected someone to reply, well I hit them with scorching ray! LOL
Master Arminas
Point of Interest -- Blur and displacement do jack-all against magic missile.Unless they are wearing a brooch of shielding, or have a lesser globe of invulnerability up, are protected by blur or displacement, or have any one of many different options at their disposal that negates your attack.
In that case, counterspelling might well be your only option, other than sucking up the bad guys spell.
Master Arminas
True, but I expected someone to reply, well I hit them with scorching ray! LOL
Master Arminas
"I don't always blast as a counterspell measure, but when I do I prefer Dragon's Breath or Wail of the Banshee."
I had a Faerun 3.5 shadowcaster/wizard/noctumancer (in his background, he was a spell duelist from Halruaa) that specialized in this very thing. He kept the party alive a lot longer than they would have had the spells gone off, and he countered a lot of spells. Plus he himself was extraordinarily resilient.
Counterspell when you know what's coming, and you can't let it happen at all, because the results would be devastating (dominate the fighter, mass heal the enemies, etc.). It's a defensive maneuver through and through.
Point of Interest -- Blur and displacement do jack-all against magic missile.Unless they are wearing a brooch of shielding, or have a lesser globe of invulnerability up, are protected by blur or displacement, or have any one of many different options at their disposal that negates your attack.
In that case, counterspelling might well be your only option, other than sucking up the bad guys spell.
Master Arminas
True, but I expected someone to reply, well I hit them with scorching ray! LOL
Master Arminas
How's maximized shout or cone of cold sound? Can maximize either spontaneously 1/day thanks to Book of Harms. :3
Point of Interest -- Blur and displacement do jack-all against magic missile.Unless they are wearing a brooch of shielding, or have a lesser globe of invulnerability up, are protected by blur or displacement, or have any one of many different options at their disposal that negates your attack.
In that case, counterspelling might well be your only option, other than sucking up the bad guys spell.
Master Arminas
True, but I expected someone to reply, well I hit them with scorching ray! LOL
Master Arminas
"I don't always blast as a counterspell measure, but when I do I prefer Dragon's Breath or Wail of the Banshee."
** spoiler omitted **
I lol'ed. :P
EDIT: Sela needs a pointy hat.
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After going through the back-and-forth points, it does seem there would be reason to cast a spell to actually counter another, rather than up the concentration DC via blasting.
However, I still can't help but feel disgusted over the lack of action economy of casting a spell just to null the efficacy of another. A 1:1 trade off just doesn't seem to be the best sort of action.
Of course, this can all be dependant on the situation: countering a maximized, intensified, empowered fireball with a non-metamagic'd fireball seems like a good trade off.... you CAN do that, right?
Volkspanzer, something I've seen at other tables (I've not had the chance to use it yet but would if given the opportunity) is allowing AoO attempts to be traded out for counterspell attempts.
And to your question: Yes, yes you can, and you will piss the other caster off and I fully approve.
It's possible to counter spell - destruktive dispel and you might even do more than just stop the spell being cast - but if you a caster with blur, mirror image and globe of invulnerability - just cast a greater dispel on him so the melee guys can hit him. They might take him down, or force him to cast on the defensive - which in parthfinder isn't something you just do (at low to midt level anyway)...
Volkspanzer, something I've seen at other tables (I've not had the chance to use it yet but would if given the opportunity) is allowing AoO attempts to be traded out for counterspell attempts.
How exactly does that work?
Counterspelling Metamagic Spells: Whether or not
a spell has been enhanced by a metamagic feat does not
affect its vulnerability to counterspelling or its ability to
counterspell another spell (see Chapter 9).
And the only caster I have every see using the counterspell RAW was a warlock in 3.5 with voracious dispelling.
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Volkspanzer, something I've seen at other tables (I've not had the chance to use it yet but would if given the opportunity) is allowing AoO attempts to be traded out for counterspell attempts.
And to your question: Yes, yes you can, and you will piss the other caster off and I fully approve.
This brings another question to mind: is the DM required to tell you if the spell you're (that you've ascertained through Spellcraft) about to counter is metamagic'd, and how it has been metamagic'd?
I currently have Improved Counterspell and at lvl 10 i've yet to use it. However, in the campaign we've been playing, there have been very few genuine magic users, barring the daemon that ate me last game.
Volkspanzer, something I've seen at other tables (I've not had the chance to use it yet but would if given the opportunity) is allowing AoO attempts to be traded out for counterspell attempts.How exactly does that work?
You a wizard, you see another person casting a spell -- you haven't used your AoO for the round. You give up your AoO and instead attempt to counter the spell the other guy is casting with a spell of your own just like normal.
All it does is give you the attempt instead of an AoO in the round.
Volkspanzer, something I've seen at other tables (I've not had the chance to use it yet but would if given the opportunity) is allowing AoO attempts to be traded out for counterspell attempts.How exactly does that work?You a wizard, you see another person casting a spell -- you haven't used your AoO for the round. You give up your AoO and instead attempt to counter the spell the other guy is casting with a spell of your own just like normal.
All it does is give you the attempt instead of an AoO in the round.
Abraham, I like that idea. I may just steal it for my game--it gives primary casters a reason for AoOs.
Master Arminas
I played a druid with Improved Counterspell in 3.5.
It came in really handy when we were fighting rakshasa. They would try to fireball or lightning bolt us, and I would counterspell with a flame strike.
I also just realized that was a better tactic than just hitting them WITH flame strikes because they had super high SR. And probably fire resistance up.
This brings another question to mind: is the DM required to tell you if the spell you're (that you've ascertained through Spellcraft) about to counter is metamagic'd, and how it has been metamagic'd?Volkspanzer, something I've seen at other tables (I've not had the chance to use it yet but would if given the opportunity) is allowing AoO attempts to be traded out for counterspell attempts.
And to your question: Yes, yes you can, and you will piss the other caster off and I fully approve.
Ask your GM, answer hazy.
Sela needs a pointy hat.
He's a grand vizier. His very large vizier's hat suits him is just fine thankyouverymuch. ;)
Volkspanzer, something I've seen at other tables (I've not had the chance to use it yet but would if given the opportunity) is allowing AoO attempts to be traded out for counterspell attempts.How exactly does that work?
You disarm the opposing spellcaster of his focus, holy symbol, or material component with your AoO. :D
Volkspanzer, something I've seen at other tables (I've not had the chance to use it yet but would if given the opportunity) is allowing AoO attempts to be traded out for counterspell attempts.How exactly does that work?You a wizard, you see another person casting a spell -- you haven't used your AoO for the round. You give up your AoO and instead attempt to counter the spell the other guy is casting with a spell of your own just like normal.
All it does is give you the attempt instead of an AoO in the round.
Abraham, I like that idea. I may just steal it for my game--it gives primary casters a reason for AoOs.
Master Arminas
This is pretty much how Spell Duel Dueling Counters work from Ultimate Magic. It just costs an Immediate Action instead of an AoO, so no swift action spell the next turn. I really like it as a mechanic (though I haven't been able to use it in-game yet).
I've counterspelled in exactly one encounter during the time I've played my sorcerer. I'm level 12. The circumstances under which I felt counterspelling was the best option were as follows:
1. My sorcerer is Fey bloodline specializing in compulsions. The thing we were fighting seemed immune to all my compulsion spells.
2. The thing was huge size and had a high CMD, rendering my pit and battlefield control spells useless.
3. The thing also had SR so my blasting spells weren't reliable.
4. The thing was casting a Quickened Confusion spell every round, which was what I spent my time countering every round. I think I ended up countering it 3 or so times.
So, yeah...
What I've really wanted was something to make my dispelling more effective. I wish there was a feat that gave me a bonus on my dispel checks because I'd seriously consider taking it.
What I've really wanted was something to make my dispelling more effective. I wish there was a feat that gave me a bonus on my dispel checks because I'd seriously consider taking it.
If such a feat existed I'd instantly take it.
--Lord Arthur Higgenstrom III, counterspelling sorcerer
Spell Specialization. It adds +2 to your caster level with dispel magic or greater dispel magic (take your pick), which then raises your caster level check to dispel stuff. If you then get Spell Perfection, that bonus doubles. See my master dispeller, Sela Kurn, above. His caster level gets a whopping +7 bonus whenever he casts greater dispelling due to feats and magic items. What's more, everyone he debuffs gets stun-locked AND suffers major penalties to their saves against his next couple of spells. Thanks to Spell Perfection, he can also Quicken his greater dispelling, allowing him to one two KO most high level encounters that rely on magic.
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Spell Specialization. It adds +2 to your caster level with dispel magic or greater dispel magic (take your pick), which then raises your caster level check to dispel stuff. If you then get Spell Perfection, that bonus doubles. See my master dispeller, Selek, above. His caster level gets a whopping +7 bonus whenever he casts greater dispelling due to feats and magic items. What's more, everyone he debuffs gets stun-locked AND suffers major penalties to their saves against his next couple of spells. Thanks to Spell Perfection, he can also Quicken his greater dispelling, allowing him to one two KO most high level encounters that rely on magic.What I've really wanted was something to make my dispelling more effective. I wish there was a feat that gave me a bonus on my dispel checks because I'd seriously consider taking it.
If such a feat existed I'd instantly take it.
--Lord Arthur Higgenstrom III, counterspelling sorcerer
*Goes and looks to see what Spell Focus: Abjuration applies to on his list...*
Thanks!
Spell Focus (abjuration) does have its uses.