I don't see why it would not work. RAW it does say "replaces laughing touch". It also says it counts as a bloodline arcana. I think the naysayers just don't like the fact that the power has been turned into a feat.
Honestly I don't like it either, but the rules are what they are.
Boon companion maxes out at character level which in this case is lower than the caster level if he uses the Robe of arcane heritage so that is a wasted feat.
He will get an animal companion one level higher than his actual sorcerer level with the robe. Is it cheese? It might be, but it is legal, and the GM will have to decide if he will allow it or not since not all rules that can be combined should be combined. This is a case where what is ok will depend on the group. Personally I would not allow the sorcerer to bypass the druid, and I would cap it at the sorcerer's character level, just like boon companion does.
I'm not sure that you are interpreting the FAQ (it's not errata) right. He says "there may be". At that point in time, he was well aware of the eldritch heritage feats, so there would be absolutely no reason to say "there may be" if you could access an archetype's abilities with them.
If this is for PFS, assume no.
It is -5. Good catch.
So let's say his actual sorcerer level is 10, but he is a level 5 druid for the animal companion.
The robes make him a level 14 sorcerer for the effect of bloodlines, making him a level 9 druid for the animal companion, but he is still only an actual level 10 sorcerer.
Boon companion only boost you up to your character level. His sorcerer level for the bloodline might be 14, but his character level is still only 10 so his druid level is now 10 so he seem to pull even.
Unless I did something wrong I don't see how he is passing his character level because boon companion specifically calls out character level.
I would cap it at the sorcerer's character level, just like boon companion does.So character level -2?
doesn't sound unfairI was actually looking at an Animal domain Theologian with EH. A bit curious if that means 2 companions or 1 ridiculous one.
If capped to being a class feature that maxes at druid(20) there might be some interesting things to do in terms of multiclass.
I think animal companion levels stack from different classes unless you have something like the archetype that says you get more than one. There was a thread on that recently IIRC.
I see what everyone is saying now. The feat normally only replaces bloodline power, but sylvan replaces 2 things, an arcana and a power. FAQ time.
Hmmm, with the horse master feat and 4 levels of cavalier, can he get any mount with eldritch heritige?
Why wouldn't boon companion and a robe of arcane heritage work? Boon companion brings it up to your character level, and thent he robe helps you increase it further.
It doesn't make sense to do it the other way (the robe increases it, the the feat doesn't ncrease it as much as a result).
When it comes to things like this the order of operations is ALWAYS beneficial.
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For those who claim it is illegal based on being archetyped, this statement shows intent that wildblooded variants are allowed as valid selections for EH.
FAQ
Spoiler:
Quote:Sorcerer: Does a sorcerer with the sage bloodline (page 72) use her Int or Cha to determine uses per day of arcane bolt?
The sage sorcerer uses her Int to determine the number of daily uses of her bloodline powers, including arcane bolt. Therefore, whether arcane bolt lists Int or Cha, the sage sorcerer still uses her Int.
The bloodline power lists Cha because that's the standard terminology for sorcerer bloodlines (because all other sorcerers use Cha), and because there may be a way for a non-sorcerer to gain access to that bloodline power, in which case it should be based on Cha (like other sorcerer bloodline powers) instead of Int.—Sean K Reynolds, 07/14/11
i dont see that as intent, but just him covering his own @$$. saying "there may be a way" is not saying "THIS OTHER THING ABSOLUTELY WORKS" .
the bloodline only exists as an archtype. only sorcs can take sorc archtypes.
Boon companion always comes in never allows you to bypass character level. That is why.
Boon Companion adds up to 4 meaning it is not a set number.
Even if you add boon companion first so that you are at max, and then add the robe second then boon companion would just have a value that keep you at character level.
I will use my previous example, but add them in a different order
So let's say his actual sorcerer level is 10, so he is a level 5 druid for the animal companion.
Boon companion at this point only boost you up to your character level. His druid level as started is 5, but now it is 9 due to the feat
The robes add another 4, but boon companions language is still set so that it can not be used to let you bypass character level.
In short it's value is always added with consideration to everything else. That is the only way it can not allow you to bypass character level which is the RAW and RAI of the feat. Either way you get a level 10 druid for the purpose of the animal companion.
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Why wouldn't boon companion and a robe of arcane heritage work? Boon companion brings it up to your character level, and thent he robe helps you increase it further.
It doesn't make sense to do it the other way (the robe increases it, the the feat doesn't ncrease it as much as a result).
When it comes to things like this the order of operations is ALWAYS beneficial.
Your effective druid level is based on your sorcerer bloodline level so you need to figure out what your sorcerer level is before druid level is even a relevant number. Once you know what your effective druid level is you would apply any feats or abilities which affect your druid level.
Regardless I don't think it matters. The sylvan bloodline replaces more than just the first level power so I don't think it qualifies for Eldritch Heritage at all.
With resepct, I disagree, Wraithstrike. The rules have never functioned in the way you describe, not for several editions.
As far as I'm concerned, in the example provided, Boon Companion has NOT increased the effective ability above your character evel--the robes did--and therefore no rule has been broken.
Boon companion is written to give you the max level possible without bypassing character level with regard to your effective druid level.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were four levels higher, to a maximum bonus equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
As you can see it is not a set number. It is a number that depends on the other numbers. Taking the feat before or after you buy the robe is not a factor.
Nothing RAW or RAI supports this feat giving you a number that bypasses character level.
Magical lineage doesn't work like that despite similar wording (you can still use an orange prism ioun stone and similar effects to end up with a CL higher than your charactetr level). Practised Spellcaster from v3.5 (and similar feats/abilities from that and this edition) have similar wording and don't function like that.
The internal logic behind the established mechanics becomes inconsistent with every similar established rule/ability if you follow your interpretation.
With all this precedent saying it doesn't work the way you describe, I have to ask: Why do you believe this works any differently?
Nothing RAW or RAI supports this feat giving you a number that bypasses character level.
Except that most people would apply a permanant bonus gain from feats before the bonus from an item that can be removed. So you are correct in that the feat alone could not raise the level past HD, but you use the feat to get the level close and then use the robes to go over. At this point given the feat, money and item slot commitments I consider it fair.
Magical Lineage does not have a higher end cap. It has a lower end cap The ioun stone had no cap either.
I am failing to see the connection between something that says you can only go this high, and things that don't have a limit.
PS:I will have to look up the wording of practiced spell caster. I will return shortly.
edit: I never did run practiced spellcaster that way. Looking at it, and boon companion you may have a point RD. They basically read the same way.
edit2:See Orge's post above also has a strong point. The feat adds to your druid level which is your sorcerer level -5 or -1 after the item. That is what I was looking at before while the practiced spellcaster feat from 3.5 is a direct conversion.
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I have the opinion that Eldritch Heritage shouldn't let you pick any Wildblooded abilties as Wildblooded is an archetype, not a bloodline.
Another way to put it is that Sylvan is a modification of the Fae bloodline powers, not its own thing. It would be like a prestige class that gets, say, bardic performance, swapping it out for a bard archetype's variant on performance.
(Actually, I think while if you are not a Wildblooded sorcerer that you can't acces any of the Wildblooded stuff with Eldritch Heritage; but, if you are a Wildblooded who takes the feat, you must use the modified bloodlines as the archetype changes all of them. I'm fairly certain this interpretation disagrees with the devs though.)
As for stacking Boon Companion and the robe, sure, knock yourself out. By the time you're likely to have the robe animal companions begin to really lag in effectiveness anyway.
Boon companion at this point only boost you up to your character level. His druid level as started is 5, but now it is 9 due to the feat
It boosts your effective PRESENT class. Lets say that you're a single-class member of Class X. And Class X gives you Druid minus 5 level animal companion. The boon feat will boost your present class but since you're not a multi-classer, it has no effect. Your companion remains at Druid-level minus 5.
The Boon Companion feat was aimed at multi-classers, not those trying to munchkin around the limits of a class itself.
That's not correct. SKR has commented on this in the past:
That's an actual text change of the RAW if I remember correctly.
Bard-Sader's quoted comment describing how Boon Companion could be written clearer is a change from the RAW. That's moot.
And yes, you can take the feat if you're a single-classed ranger. It's actually pretty sweet deal.
Currently we don't have a place to post FAQ/update material for books other than the Pathfinder RPG hardcovers, so I can't attach this to a permanent FAQ, but consider this an official ruling on this question.
SKR's actual post, however, is pretty clear.
In my eyes:
1. You can take the AC with EH.
2. Even with Robes and Boon companion you can only end up at a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level.
So with 3 feats you can have a -1 level AC. With an additional item we get that up to 0.
The problem is that a normal Sylvan Sorcerer would get a +1 level AC with those robes.
But blame that one on the supplement inflation.
re: the Wildblooded thing, I think it's pretty straight-forward that RAW, you need the archetype to get 'Sylvan', it isn't a Bloodline that you can choose. I thought that was a superfluous distinction until now, but lo and behold, and actual game balance reason why that difference should count. I had thought that perhaps Wildblooded Sorcerors would be the only ones who could take Wildblooded Eldritch Heritage Feats, and they would in fact be compelled to do so, but Archetypes modify things gained from your class, and the Eldritch Heritage Feats are not gained from your class, even if they replicate stuff that you CAN gain from A class level.
If you want to allow this in a home game, I highly suggest requiring the higher level Eldritch Heritage Feats before the 1st one (granting an Animal Companion) kicks in. Seems pretty obvious balance wise.
Wildblooded is not an archetype of a class but the archetype of a bloodline and thus creates a new bloodline. As long as everything an Archetype changes is changable in your condition (which invalidates most dual archetypes) it is valid to apply it.
And taking the Fey Bloodline, slapping the Archetype on it and then taking some powers out of it is perfectly valid.
By your arguments it would be illegal for Inquisitors or Druids to take a Subdomain because by your argumentation it doesn't change the Domain but the Cleric, which is obviously not the case.
Sorcerer archetypes are bloodline archetypes. They modify the bloodline. The bloodline archetypes are bloodlines, just as much as a Zen Archer Monk is still a Monk. If a feat or prestige class had the requirement 5th Level Monk, you'd not say a Zen Archer couldn't qualify because he's not a Monk. By the same token, the archetypes for the sorcerer bloodlines are archetypes to the bloodlines, and are thus, still bloodlines. Anything else is kind of silly, as you're then saying that an Empyreal or Sage sorcerer doesn't have a bloodline, since the archetype removed his bloodline. Blech.
Sorcerer archetypes are bloodline archetypes. They modify the bloodline. The bloodline archetypes are bloodlines, just as much as a Zen Archer Monk is still a Monk. If a feat or prestige class had the requirement 5th Level Monk, you'd not say a Zen Archer couldn't qualify because he's not a Monk. By the same token, the archetypes for the sorcerer bloodlines are archetypes to the bloodlines, and are thus, still bloodlines. Anything else is kind of silly, as you're then saying that an Empyreal or Sage sorcerer doesn't have a bloodline, since the archetype removed his bloodline. Blech.
Well there certainly are Sorcerer Archetypes.
Look at Crossblooded Sorcerers or Razmian PriestsBut the Wildblooded ones are Bloodline Archetypes ;)
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Wildblooded is not an archetype of a class but the archetype of a bloodline and thus creates a new bloodline. As long as everything an Archetype changes is changable in your condition (which invalidates most dual archetypes) it is valid to apply it.
And taking the Fey Bloodline, slapping the Archetype on it and then taking some powers out of it is perfectly valid.By your arguments it would be illegal for Inquisitors or Druids to take a Subdomain because by your argumentation it doesn't change the Domain but the Cleric, which is obviously not the case.
I have two problems with your interpretation here. Here is the very picky/pedantic one: What the heck is a Bloodline archetype? Where is that described in a book? it seems like you are making up terms to defend your position.
The less pedantic, more logical argument is this: By your own interpretation, you still couldn't use the feat to take Wildblooded abilities because the feat doesn't give you all the class abilities that are replaced, which is needed to select an archetype.
You don't need to use a cleric archetype to select subdomains; if you did, your example would be more relevant.
Imagine a feat that gave you smite evil as a paladin of your level -3 once a day. What you are arguing amounts to this feat also letting you select "weal's champion" becasue that ability replaces smite evil for the Holy Tactician.
Short version: Wildblooded is a sorcerer archetype, not a list of new bloodlines.
(as an aside, I don't really think it's broken for a GM to allow this in a home game. But, I don't think RAW allow for it.)
Yes 3 Feats for a Animal Cohort while needing alot of Cha for that is really over the top.
We have Leadership which doesn't have any requirements and you even get more powerful creatures with it.
Thanks for pointing out how overpowered the 3 Feat combo would be.
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And just for your information:
There is one spell that gives you a Paladin smite.
There is a feat that gives you a Paladin smite.
Yes 3 Feats for a Animal Cohort while needing alot of Cha for that is really over the top.
We have Leadership which doesn't have any requirements and you even get more powerful creatures with it.
Thanks for pointing out how overpowered the 3 Feat combo would be.
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.And just for your information:
There is one spell that gives you a Paladin smite.
There is a feat that gives you a Paladin smite.
What feat gives you a paladin's smite?
Channel Smite does not give you smite though. It allows you to put your channel ability into a weapon instead of using it as an AoE.
Yeah it works if you are a sorcerer, but all it does is give you early access to bloodlinepowers. Of course it may be worth it in some games.
Yes 3 Feats for a Animal Cohort while needing alot of Cha for that is really over the top.
We have Leadership which doesn't have any requirements and you even get more powerful creatures with it.
Thanks for pointing out how overpowered the 3 Feat combo would be.
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.And just for your information:
There is one spell that gives you a Paladin smite.
There is a feat that gives you a Paladin smite.
I play almost exclusively theurges and I have to say having a pet to handle your business would be a real help in levels 6-7.
What feat gives you a paladin's smite?Yes 3 Feats for a Animal Cohort while needing alot of Cha for that is really over the top.
We have Leadership which doesn't have any requirements and you even get more powerful creatures with it.
Thanks for pointing out how overpowered the 3 Feat combo would be.
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.And just for your information:
There is one spell that gives you a Paladin smite.
There is a feat that gives you a Paladin smite.
Its called Planar Wildshape.
Works on full HD (so just as a Paladin of your level) and even lets you decide whether you want to smite good or evil. You won't get as many uses a Paladin though. And you will need Quick Wildshape for multiple (effective) uses per combat.I play almost exclusively theurges and I have to say having a pet to handle your business would be a real help in levels 6-7.Yes 3 Feats for a Animal Cohort while needing alot of Cha for that is really over the top.
We have Leadership which doesn't have any requirements and you even get more powerful creatures with it.
Thanks for pointing out how overpowered the 3 Feat combo would be.
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.And just for your information:
There is one spell that gives you a Paladin smite.
There is a feat that gives you a Paladin smite.
So you would spend 3 feats and a -2 on leadership for a good advantage on 2 levels?
Not having an as good buff/feat hooker later will seriously hurt you. And that further dims your perspective on being able to dump Cha. Because with a -4 modifier on Leadership you will most likely fail to qualify for a monstrous cohort (at least the ones close to your level and mostly they don't share your alignmend, too). And if you take a leveled dude you will have to keep a good eye on him until he catched up with your level (a level 2 guy isn't really the star of the show at level 7-8).The only real thing I can imagine that would have a real benefit from that feat would be human/half-elf Sorcerers (or Bards/Oracle that go controlling, but I doubt that really exists). They could spare the feats and probably even have enough Cha to get their level appropriate (CL-2) cohorts later.
ah, that is more like Bestiary smite, I guess?
ok, but less extendable than actually have the Smite CLASS ability
(whether via Feats or Paladin Class Abilities than extend Smite, e.g. Aura of Judgement)
I thought you meant it would give the smite to anyone.
It is not a bad feat, but it is not the paladin's smite. Only half-celestials get the paladins's smite. The other smite is weaker.
ah, that is more like Bestiary smite, I guess?
ok, but less extendable than actually have the Smite CLASS ability
(whether via Feats or Paladin Class Abilities than extend Smite, e.g. Aura of Judgement)
Smite Evil is Smite Evil. No matter where you have it from.
I thought you meant it would give the smite to anyone.
It is not a bad feat, but it is not the paladin's smite. Only half-celestials get the paladins's smite. The other smite is weaker.
Can you point me to it?
In my books and the SRD every celestial creature gets smite evil and fiendish creatures get smite good.
Its just that short because its a simple template after all.