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Okay, so I'm dusting off an old stalwart, a Two-Handed Fighter - a Falchion-wielding Weaponmaster - and I've been eyeballing his feats somewhat. Basically I have everything exactly the way I like them except for three slots where I'm torn...
Figure Human, high Strength and Constitution, everything else where it needs to be.
Feats:
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Spring Attack
4th - Combat Expertise
5th - Whirlwind Attack
6th - Lunge
7th - Weapon Focus: Falchion
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: Falchion
[Retrain Cleave to Furious Focus]
9th - Weapon Specialization: Falchion
10th - Critical Focus
11th - Dazing Assault
12th - Greater Weapon Specialization: Falchion
13th - Staggering Critical
14th - Vital Strike or Step Up or Improved Sunder
15th - Improved Vital Strike or Following Step or Sundering Strike
16th - Stunning Assault
[Retrain Dazing Assault to Greater Vital Strike or Step Up and Strike or Greater Sunder]
17th - Stunning Critical
18th - Iron Will
19th - Improved Iron Will
20th - Toughness
Now don't give me any grief over Whirlwind Attack - its quite simply the best decision I've ever made for a Fighter. Being able to attack everyone within 10' at full BAB at 6th level is a thing of beauty. Doubly so if you can add Dazing or Stunning Assault to it. No, what I need help with are the feats in bold print.
I actually like the Vital Strike line because I always want to be able to make standard action attacks really count, and the Weaponmaster's critical abilty can do that - plus my GM is a little more permissive when it comes to when the feat is actually usable. The Step Up line is immensely appealing in theory but I can honestly say that I can't remember a game off-hand where it would have been useful. Not saying it never happened, just saying I've never thought to myself 'if only I had Following Step'... The Sundering line is also interesting - being able to Sunder when I crit for free and possibly eeking a little extra damage out of it as well sounds really nice, but in most of the BBEG fights at that level there either won't be weapons to Sunder or they'll be enhanced to the point that Sundering is unlikely, as is damage carry-through.
Any advice?
That looks like a really nice build. I'm tempting to try to steer my own current fighter towards that build now, just to try it out.
In regards to what feats to choose, I'd probably go with the Step Up line. I haven't got any real experience with Sunder, so I don't know if that's good at those levels, but vital strike with a Falchion just doesn't seem that WOW to me. You do 8d4 instead of 2d4, which adds an average of about 15 damage, if I'm reading it right. Even at max (all 4s) it's only 24 extra damage, which isn't even affected by crits. That's not all that much at that level, is it? Just my thoughts. I haven't played a campaign at that high levels yet, so I don't really know.
That looks like a really nice build. I'm tempting to try to steer my own current fighter towards that build now, just to try it out.
In regards to what feats to choose, I'd probably go with the Step Up line. I haven't got any real experience with Sunder, so I don't know if that's good at those levels, but vital strike with a Falchion just doesn't seem that WOW to me. You do 8d4 instead of 2d4, which adds an average of about 15 damage, if I'm reading it right. Even at max (all 4s) it's only 24 extra damage, which just isn't affected by crits. That's not all that much at that level, is it? Just my thoughts. I haven't played a campaign at that high levels yet, so I don't really know.
Thanks - as far as the first 12 levels I absolutely couldn't design a Fighter any better. You'll note that I don't have Improved Critical in there, but the preponderance of Keen weapons led me to the decision to skimp on the feat since they don't stack. And the truth is, if you don't expect to go higher than 12th level then I'd reccomend considering a Greatsword instead - all of the ancillary critical benefits come later.
FWIW, there are pre-reqs to consider if you go this route, particularly among the attributes. This is what I did:
Attributes:
Str 16 (+2 Racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th)
Dex 13
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 13 (+1 at 20th)
Cha 7
Looking over my stats now, it seems that it's not really possible (unless I somehow convince my GM to give me Combat Expertise without 13 int).
My stats (at lvl 5) are 16, 13, 16, 10, 10, 8 (which I think was PB 20 and a custom race with -2 dex, +2 con, +2 wis).
It'll just have to wait to my next fighter.
Yeah, its a tough fit with a 20 point buy.
I think sunder is iffy. If you really need to sunder something, you can just eat the attack of opportunity, especially if you have a rocking AC. I guess you've been okay so far, but I would personally get iron will and improved sooner. I would also get sickening critical and critical mastery so that I could attempt to stagger and sicken on the same hit.
Finally, the dazing assault at level 11 (DC 21) will be going against most likely a +14 fortitude save, so it will only work about 30% of the time, and you have a -5 to attack. With a falchion, you critical hit 30% of the time anyway, so the critical feats are about the same odds for bad effects I think, and there's no penalty.
Also, I think something like dazing assault would be better than vital strike. Your first standard action hit isn't going to kill anybody even with GVS's +15 hit points of damage, but if you can daze them, they don't get to hit you back before you unload on them the next round.
Just some opinions.
I was actually kicking around moving Iron Will up to that 15th spot. My AC is adequate but far from 'rocking'. The truth is that I augment my less than optimized AC with the crowd control from the Assault and critical feats. What I usually do is use Dazing Assault when making a standard action attack OR when Whirlwinding because those attacks are at full BAB. When going toe-to-toe with a BBEG I rely on the crits to do the trick unless his AC is particularly low. There's no reason why you can't use Dazing Assault with Vital Strike incidently.
Maybe something like this:
10th - Critical Focus
11th - Dazing Assault
12th - Sickening Critical
13th - Staggering Critical
14th - Critical Mastery
15th - Iron Will
16th - Stunning Assault
[Retrain Dazing Assault to Greater Weapon Specialization: Falchion]
17th - Stunning Critical
18th - ???
The Sickening Critical feat has nice synergy with the other mezzes due to the fact that you can't save against it and it enforced a -2 on saves during its extended duration.
EDIT: Just noticed that I can't take Toughness with the level 20 slot as its a non-combat feat. If I drop Improved Iron Will that leaves me spots at level 18, 19 and 20 which brings me right back to the question in the OP...
deadly stroke with a stunning critical is just mean. Hey, why don't you just stand there and bleed out your con?
I like Deadly Stroke but I don't have it the feats for it and Intimidating is hard enough without a 7 Charisma (that really needs to be changed IMO).
have you thought about this? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-stroke-combat
deadly stroke may be the way to go as it would allow your standard actions to still hit hard, but they have to succumb to dazing assault first (in your build)
might be worth it depending on how your party is and if you can reliably act first in initiative
Playing around with it... how about this?
10th - Critical Focus
11th - Dazing Assault
12th - Sickening Critical
13th - Staggering Critical
14th - Critical Mastery
15th - Iron Will
16th - Stunning Assault
[Retrain Dazing Assault to Greater Weapon Specialization: Falchion]
17th - Stunning Critical
18th - Dazzling Display
19th - Shatter Defenses
20th - Deadly Stroke
I have to do something with those last three feats anyway. I wonder if I can use Deadly Stroke with Unstoppable Strike...
+5 weapons actually overcome all DR if you look under the damage reduction heading (though that may be only in PFS play)
if it were me, i would start the deadly stroke train earlier, but the way i play is different from you, and that looks fine. no wasted feats, nothing useless, and in about as helpful of an order as you can get em. I would look over your crit feats and see if you want them all at that time, seems like you could get deadly stroke earlier without either staggering or sickening crit (even though those would be the only ones usable with crit mastery until you get stunning crit)
heck, with those crit feats, it may be better just to pump out full attacks and grab something else for the last 3, but that's just something else to think about. I have to play around with a character for a week or so before i can really solidify the build order
Yeah, what I have by level 17 should really be all I need. Sickening Critical will even stack with Stunning to inflict its save penalty, and by then of course, a full action attack chain is going to offer 4 attacks (5 with Haste) so I can't imagine using a Standard Action attack unless I'm forced to.
The problem is that two of those last three feats HAVE to be combat feats, otherwise I'd go Improved Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes & Great Fortitude.
Hey, here's a complaint: as a fighter I have to take Defensive Combat Training (utterly useless) to qualify for Advanced Defensive Combat Training...
Hmmmm - maybe I'll play around with the Blind-fight feats. That might be exactly what I need to round this guy out.
Yeah, that's definitely the way I'm going to go - Blind-Fight shores up an Achilles Heel quite nicely.
Final build:
Feats:
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Spring Attack
4th - Combat Expertise
5th - Whirlwind Attack
6th - Lunge
7th - Weapon Focus: Falchion
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: Falchion
[Retrain Cleave to Furious Focus]
9th - Weapon Specialization: Falchion
10th - Critical Focus
11th - Dazing Assault
12th - Sickening Critical
13th - Staggering Critical
14th - Critical Mastery
15th - Iron Will
16th - Stunning Assault
[Retrain Dazing Assault to Greater Weapon Specialization: Falchion]
17th - Stunning Critical
18th - Blind-Fight
19th - Improved Blind-Fight
20th - Greater Blind-Fight
Remember, Whirlwind Attack is a full attack action, and you can take a 5 ft step at any point during an action. I find a lot of groups don't realize this and short change their fighters out of hitting as many enemies as they should be able to. :)
Of course, Lunge also works w/ WWA to affect a bigger death radius.
I do think you should scrap some of those weaker critical feats, though. And get improved critical, rather than relyng on keen (in case you find a nicer non-keen falchion). Also, if you're getting Furious Focus, I strongly suggest Dreadful Carnage. You said your charisma was 7, but... with maxed skill ranks in Intimidate (you can just start pumping them in around the time you get the feat instead of spending into it from the start, if you want) you'll still have a fair chance of demoralizing enemies. And a 30 ft demoralize effect as a free action every time you drop a foe is pretty sweet.
If you're going to have Stunning Critical, you may actually want to keep Dazing Assault over Stunning, just for more diversity in status effects you can inflict. Also, iirc less monsters are immune to dazing.
Have you thought about the penetrating strike and greater penetrating strike? Blowing through up to 10DR per hit is pretty nice - up to 40DR when you have 4 attacks. I'd say it was better than Iron Will at that late in your levels as you can get Penetrating at 14 and plug in the greater version at 16ish. There are nice magical items (cloak of resistance +5) and some traits that help with WILL saves if that was what you were worried about.
The other thing is you have 3x critical specials and can only apply up to two at a time with the critical mastery, so you really don't need all 3, just pick the stunning and it's prereq of staggering, then you have some nice effects right there.
Yeah, that's definitely the way I'm going to go - Blind-Fight shores up an Achilles Heel quite nicely.
Final build:
Feats:
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Spring Attack
4th - Combat Expertise
5th - Whirlwind Attack
6th - Lunge
7th - Weapon Focus: Falchion
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: Falchion
[Retrain Cleave to Furious Focus]
9th - Weapon Specialization: Falchion
10th - Critical Focus
11th - Dazing Assault
12th - Sickening Critical
13th - Staggering Critical
14th - Critical Mastery
15th - Iron Will
16th - Stunning Assault
[Retrain Dazing Assault to Greater Weapon Specialization: Falchion]
17th - Stunning Critical
18th - Blind-Fight
19th - Improved Blind-Fight
20th - Greater Blind-Fight
Looks good, but you cannot take Spring Attack until 4th level.
@ StreamOfTheSky: That's excellent point about the 5' Step. I haven't considered Dreadful Carnage but I'm already pencilling it in for my Dragon Disciple. Dibersity of status effects is also a good point, though it won't free up any more feats for me.
@ ElCrabofAnger: Yeah, Spring Attack and Combat Expertise is supposed to be flip-flopped.
@ ub3r_n3rd: I took Freed Slave as one of my traits for a +1 Will save bonus. I'll take a second look at the Penetrating Strike feats - I keep forgetting that creatures in PF get damage resistance a lot earlier and a lot more frequently than old-school D&D.
As far as the critical feats, Staggering is the pre-req for Stunning so it has to stay. Sickening Critical comes MUCH earlier, allowing me to combine critical effects three levels earlier and - equally important - reduces the target's saving throw against the other effects. Stunning and Staggering can't really effectively stack - if I could swap out Staggering Critical later I would, but I can't so I'll be keeping all three.
You could trade Sickening Critical out at 16th for something else (like another critical feat) if you're keeping Dazing Assault and thus no longer utilizing the swap at that level.
Actually, I'd just drop Critical Mastery entirely... You're basically paying two feats (Critical Mastery and Sickening Critical) to also sicken someone on a crit as your feats currently stand, as opposed to "only" staggering or stunning them. Toss both and you have more room for other feats you want. Then since you're not really using it until 13 when you get Staggering Crit, you could shift Critical Focus up to your 12th level feat slot.
EDIT: Also, have you seen Butterfly's Sting? Depending on if that's an allowed source and the right party make up (ideally teamed w/ a scythe user :) ), that could be interesting, too. Hand off your crit to the next guy. It's available VERY early, doesn't even require Critical Focus. And it's not a combat feat...it's an odd duck.
You could trade Sickening Critical out at 16th for something else (like another critical feat) if you're keeping Dazing Assault and thus no longer utilizing the swap at that level.
Actually, I'd just drop Critical Mastery entirely... You're basically paying two feats (Critical Mastery and Sickening Critical) to also sicken someone on a crit as your feats currently stand, as opposed to "only" staggering or stunning them. Toss both and you have more room for other feats you want. Then since you're not really using it until 13 when you get Staggering Crit, you could shift Critical Focus up to your 12th level feat slot.
Perhaps I'm misinterpretting the rules, but as I understand them, when multiple effects apply, you decide the order in which they do. As such, sickening will automatically make all saves against Stunning or Staggering suffer a -2 penalty which makes it a valuable addition just for that.
And I'm not giving up my critical to anyone :-P - but I do have a Dervish Dancer who took the feat.
Interesting... something like this?
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack
[Retrain Cleave to Whirlwind Attack]
5th - Furious Focus
6th - Lunge
7th - Weapon Focus: Falchion
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: Falchion
I really like that. I get Furious Focus and Whirlwind Attack quicker. Thanks for the suggestion.
Okay, here is the newest version of the 'final build' :-P
Human - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack
[Retrain Cleave to Whirlwind Attack]
5th - Furious Focus
6th - Lunge
7th - Weapon Focus: Falchion
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: Falchion
9th - Iron Will
10th - Critical Focus
11th - Dazing Assault
12th - Sickening Critical
13th - Staggering Critical
14th - Critical Mastery
15th - Weapon Specialization: Falchion
16th - Greater Weapon Specialization: Falchion
17th - Stunning Critical
18th - Blind-Fight
19th - Improved Blind-Fight
20th - Greater Blind-Fight
Swap stickening critical with dazing assault so you can retrain dazing assault later to stunning assault. I would still think strongly about swapping greater weapon focus and iron will's placement. Your attack is going to generally be stupid high, and dominate person should start showing up around level 9. You will wipe your party if dominated. Lower priority if you have a wizard that likes to spam magic circle against evil.
9th - Weapon Specialization: Falchion
10th - Critical Focus
11th - Sickening Critical
12th - Dazing Assault
13th - Staggering Critical
14th - Critical Mastery
15th - Iron Will
16th - Stunning Assault
[Retrain Dazing Assault to Greater Weapon Specialization: Falchion]
17th - Stunning Critical
18th - Blind-Fight
19th - Improved Blind-Fight
20th - Greater Blind-Fight
I'm actually going to take an earlier reccomendation of keeping Dazing Assault - with Staggering and Stunning criticals, I have the opportunity to apply a variety of conditions in case I come across someone who is immune to one or the other. I took your reccomendation with Iron Will above... kinda. I like to keep my attack as high as possible to accomodate both Dazing Assault and Power Attack as often as possible - and those iterative attacks all count.
I'd still like to find a way to work in Improved Iron Will, but I don't see it happening. Incidently, if you haven't already, browse the Weapon Master and see just how effective he is with Crits...
Heh. At level 20 your criticals have a DC 34 save, so you can stick them to pit fiends about half the time. You would see critical hits 5 rounds out of 6. Your first attack will have a higher bonus than a pit fiend's armor class. Odds are, you could stun lock him within 2 rounds and it would never get to act again.
Keep in mind that with Sickening Critical stacking and taking effect first, those saves are at -2.
That's at the higher levels... at the lower levels, by 4th I can attack every adjacent target (including my 5' step) at full BAB, every target within 10' by 6th - while most other melee types are just thrilled to have recieved their second iterative.
i just want to point out that you have no ranged ability. you should come up with a plan for what happens when you fight a flying enemy.
umd with a wand, magic composit bow (although this will eat into your WBL for little gain) or cross bow. on paper taking feats for ranged effective ness may not seem important, but when that flying teleporting demon shoots the hell out of your main caster/ranged fighter, leaving you to try and exchange blows with it. the only problem is that youre shooting 1-4 times per round depending on your level, but getting shot at 7-8 times a round for almost 4 times as much damage.
other then your ranged weakness, you character is very solid for killing melee.
Yeah - I toyed around with taking Deadly Aim or something similar, but after talking to my group, everyone was fine with my focusing solely on melee... I won't be soloing any adventures and we've got casters and an archer in the group. This guy wasn't designed to be capable of handling every threat, but rather to be the best at what he does. I know that comes with a liability in other areas.