Theologian is fine as is but it does not seem such a great benefit for a MT :
- Ability to cast domain spells is less interesting for a MT, the interesting spells are arcane spells you can not usually cast but by going MT you can already cast most interesting spells by virtue of your wizard class spell list.
- Casting two levels higher is nice, but couldn't you already do that by selecting the Magical Knack trait twice for different classes ?
Admitedly the latter is a non-issue in campaigns I play and DM because we use a simple Magic Rating system. Add up your usual class levels that add to CL, non-caster levels add 1 for every 2 levels. So a MT would simply cast at his full character level and a fighter 4 wizard 6 would cast at a CL of 8. Not sure if your group likes houseruling, but I find this a particulary good one.
Join a spellcasting guild (Inner Sea Magic) and get a Fame score of 35. That will net you the Esoteric Training perk (obtainable by level 7 in many cases), which increases one spellcasting class' caster level by +3, and another by +1. Stacked with Magical Knack, you end up with a full caster level for most of your career. Throw in an orange prism ioun stone, and you actually come out ahead with level +1 caster level in both classes!
I kind of wanted to try a Druid/Wizard with an animal companion to help me get through the tough levels. He can stay relevant with a Boon Companion and Awaken as we get up there after which he can take his own levels. I was actually thinking of doing a constrictor snake with Lore Master or Barbarian levels.
Caedwyr you almost ninjaed me. I highly recommend the Magister to anyone who is looking to re-work the mystic Thuerge. It is what the MT always should have been and it does it in a way that is reasonably well balanced and far more flexible. That and you get to do it from level 1 without the kind of major growing pains the MT has.
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Unfortunately, since he's looking for something usable in PFS, the Magister wouldn't be an option for him.
My thoughts are along the lines that the limits of PFS material will continue to make the Mystic Theurge a very difficult class to play as is.
There are a couple ways to boost caster level to help offset the loss, however the biggest penalty is slowed access to spells.
If you can't find a way into Mystic Theurge by 4th level, it's going to continue to feel like a weak choice.
Personally, I'd suggest going druid/wizard for the MT. I'm a big fan of the menhir savant archetype for a MT. With the menhir savant, you've at least got one potentially big blast a day.
If you go wizard3/druid3 for entry, magical knack trait for wizard, and then popping that savant ability, your wizard level will be 5+ (3+wis mod/day). If you've got good blasting spell, you could knock your caster level up to caster level 10 for one spell (assuming a 14 wisdom). You could stretch it out instead, of course.
There's also the feat that boosts your effective druid level for wildshape, which can provide a nice bonus.
But you'll still be hurting on spell levels a lot, though.
4th level entry makes Mystic Theurge a LOT more reasonable.
Unfortunately, since he's looking for something usable in PFS, the Magister wouldn't be an option for him.
Well the OP said he used PFS rulings, not neccesarily the FPS restrictions on material since this is apparently a homegame. But OP it would be helpful if you could clarify wether or not you are willing/able to use 3rd party material. Because really the magister solves all the problems of the MT in a nice neat little reasonably balanced package.
My thoughts are along the lines that the limits of PFS material will continue to make the Mystic Theurge a very difficult class to play as is.
I would definately agree with that assesment.
I kind of wanted to try a Druid/Wizard with an animal companion to help me get through the tough levels. He can stay relevant with a Boon Companion and Awaken as we get up there after which he can take his own levels. I was actually thinking of doing a constrictor snake with Lore Master or Barbarian levels.
In addition to Boon companion, go half elf (or human) and put your skill focus in Knowledge: Nature and take Eldritch Heritage for the sylvan bloodline power, by fifth level your character can have a companion with a power level equal to your level, then you can buff your companion with cool ass wizard and druid buffs and your companion will stay relevant.
Its possible that a gm would allow Know nature instead of Know religion for entrance into the MT class.
When not gathering the three feats needed to make an awesome animal companion I recommend Improved initiative, spell focus transmutation and or conjuration, Varsian tattoo and arcane armor training if you can craft or have access to someone who can craft magic armor.
Outfitting yourself and your pet with magical armor can increase your destructive power, and give you a great armor slot that you can mount a huge amount of protective enchantments on it.
I also recommend a bonded object strongly, dagger is my favorite because of the dueling enchantment and the difficulty of sundering a enchanted dagger but rings and amulets also kick ass.
I am not sure how set you are on cleric, but here are some thoughts on MT in general.
MT typically suffers from two drawbacks:
1. Painful levels where you have to survive and actually have a way to contribute to the party until you start your double progression
2. Strong, or at least thus felt, limitation on the spellcasting power of 9th-level caster combinations (wizard/cleric, druid/sorcerer, ...)
I think the limitations and "difficulties" imposed on MT are intentional and very sensible. In the end at level 20, you can end up with level 8 spells in two classes at the same time, which is really powerful. So this is not, in my opinion, "terrible" or "sucks" or "should be fixed", but is well-balanced and alright. So #2 is adequat and you either should accept it or play another class/prestige class.
Personally I see #1 as the bigger problem. Unless you start at a high level, it can be very difficult to actually reach those levels. Furthermore, you will likely feel inadequate and as if you do not contribute enough during your career and the rest of the party will have to pull you through.
One possible way to address these issues, if you do not want to accept them, is to leave the discard high-level casting power, or at least equal progression, and to either
a) focus on one of your spellcasting classes first until you reach a comfortable power level, then "dip" and progress further in both classes' casting power, or
b) go for a non-9th-level-caster combination.
Examples for a) would be cleric 7/wizard 3/MT 10, wizard 10/cleric 3/ MT 7, etc.
Examples for b) would be rather diverse and "wild":
- ranger 7 / wizard 3 / MT 10: level 4 ranger spells, level 7 wizard spells, BAB 13, many class features and quite survivable
- inquisitor 6 / magus 4 / MT 10 / 1 lvl left: lvl 6 inquisitor spells, level 5 magus spells, bab 12, many features (can be expanded with feats), good saves, quite survivable
- bard 4 / oracle 4 / MT 10 / oracle 2: bard spells level 5, Oracle spells level 8, bab 12, many features (like cast in armor)...
Anyway, this is just my personal opinion. I consider #1 to be stronger detriment than #2, and the above way could be one to address that :-)
Has there been any official errata or ruling for the Magical Lineage + Heighten Spell combination granting early entry into Mystic Theurge? If not then this would be PFS legal.
Also, I would highly recommend the Empyreal bloodline for sorcerers. It does delay entry by 1 level which I understand is counter productive to the purpose of the thread. However, I believe what it lacks in delayed entry it makes up for in ability dependancy. And if you use both methods then it isn't really delayed entry.
or sorcerer/oracle, sorcere/paladin, bard/oracle...
lots of fun combinations. empyreal is great, though, especially if you should do a monk dip ;-)
Has there been any official errata or ruling for the Magical Lineage + Heighten Spell combination granting early entry into Mystic Theurge? If not then this would be PFS legal.
I believe the developers said this didn't work, but I don't recall it being in any official capacity.
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Another thought is using cleric/ synthesist. Also delays you a level and your spellcasting is a bit limited, but summoner gets early entry to a lot of good spells and with four levels of synthesist you can have a fairly decent protective 'suit' with some nice defensive and maneuvering powers (Or you can load up on skills).
Ok... maybe that's a stretch.
Has there been any official errata or ruling for the Magical Lineage + Heighten Spell combination granting early entry into Mystic Theurge? If not then this would be PFS legal.I believe the developers said this didn't work, but I don't recall it being in any official capacity.
i have also seen this somewhere once. it is all based on unclear wording in the metamagic section, i'm pretty sure it would not work at pfs.
Ogre: Actually, you know... I have never considered the summoner route for MT, much less the synthesist. It is unique. I like it. Actually, one of the biggest concerns for a MT is the low spell DCs and the summoner doens't generally have to worry about that. Plus the cleric spells seem like they would make for great buff spells. I think it would synergize decently enough.
Regarding Heighten Spell + Magical Lineage: I can accept that it doesn't work despite that I believe that it currently does/should by RAW. A ruling, even in a non official capacity would go far enough to convince me. I have yet to see this, though. I do admit that my forum searching fu might not be up to snuff though.
Having a single spellcasting attribute is never worth another level of waiting for the prestige class to start. Also losing out on sorcerer shinys and the piss poor spell selection sorcerers get make it counter productive for a theurge.
A 3rd level wizard/3rd level cleric or druid/2nd level theurge would have 4/4 o level spells, a minimum of 3/3 1st level spells, 2/2 2nd level spells and 1/1 1st level spells, not including attribute bonuses, school focus and domain spells.
A 4th sorcerer/3rd cleric or druid/1st level theurge however has the following: -(6 known)/4 0 level spells, 6(4+1 known)/3 1st level spells and 4(2 known)/2 2nd level spells.
while you gain a slight advantage in arcane spells per day that does not change the fact that you are an 8th level primary caster who can only cast a tiny amount of 2nd level spells. Whats more you are stepping on the big advantage theurges have: Variety.
Quick question, what spells does a wizard theurge have in his spellbooks?
Answer: All of them.
Because he is several levels behind in casting he can afford to fill his spellbook with every spell that he does not have a moral or theological objection to casting, even redundant spells that his divine half already has and he can afford them because he's three levels ahead of when he should have gotten them. This means the theurge can with a little bit of time or a swish of his bonded object can call upon whatever circumstantial spell that is useless in most situations but kicks incredible ass in this one situation.
Sorcerer or oracle Theurges give up their awesome bloodline powers even more limitations on their spells per day.
Actually, one of the biggest concerns for a MT is the low spell DCs
My 2 cents: This was the BIG problem of the MT when I played one. You can't focus on two stats to the same degree, especially with point-buy, so you won't have the high DCs. This means you'd be better off to go the supportive route. Focus on healing, buffing and restoring and only cast offensive spells if they have no saves or have good effects regardless of a save (Scorching Ray, Grease, Summon X those kind of spells).
However, contrary to an alternative supportive caster (normally a cleric or bard) you are totally worthless in (melee) combat. You don't wear the armour, you don't fight well. This means a MT in the party means one less 'tank' and one more squishy. In my party we only had one capable melee combatant: a fighter. Our party flanks were constantly open for enemies to get to the squishies. In retrospect I should have summoned a lot more. So think about how you are going to fill that hole.
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Wizard thuerge rocks
It's not that simple, particularly not within PFS.
At 12th level a MT with the Empyreal bloodline is going to have a 28 Wisdom (17 start, +3 from levels, +6 headband*). That gives him 6 bonus first level spells and four bonus spells for every other level (combined for both classes). The DC for spells the pure wisdom caster is going to be Spell Level +9.
Even if you figure a fairly min-maxed build Wizard MT with starting stats (7,10,12,19,17,7) then bumping WIS and INT once and adding a Headband +4 INT/ WIS you would get a 24 INT and a 22 WIS, which gives you spell DCs of Level +7 and +6... Bonus spells based on casting stat are similarly lower, particularly at the higher levels. (only 1 bonus spell per level for 3 level + spells)
As for having every single spell in his spell book, I don't think you understand PFS very well. He would have to pay for something like 200 scrolls to get all the spells from 1st through 5th level. Even if he just focused on the good ones thats a lot of scrolls. Particularly when you figure that thuerges don't get two free spells per level as they advance. The Sorcerer based thuerge can buy stuff with all that gold... like pearls of power or metamagic rods (like lesser quicken for the ~16 third level spells he has in his arsenal).
Also keep in mind, while the sorcerer spell list is pretty limiting for a normal sorcerer, the thuerge can lean on the versatility of the cleric's spell list which seriously limits that handicap.
At even numbered levels when the wizard thuerge has higher level spells it's pretty close but at the odd numbered levels the empyreal sorcerer is going to seriously outgun the wizard in every way.
What Ogre said.
Seriously, the Empyreal Sorcerer/Cleric Mystic Theurge is better than the Wizard based one in most ways. The limited spell selection of the Sorcerer doesn't hurt much as you can pick up a lot of the non-arcane spells from your cleric side. Also if you are human you can take the alternate favored class bonus of an extra spell known/level.
The biggest advantage though is avoiding MAD. You wont need Int or Cha for this character and the only physical stats you need is a decent Con for HP and Fort saves and Dex for AC, Ref saves and making sure your ranged touch spells hit. You get to get to your +6 Wis item faster than the Wizard. As Ogre pointed out you don't have to spend money on scrolls but you also don't have to spend money on scribing those scrolls or taking the time out required to do so. In fact, you don't need to worry about a spell book at all. ...which is good. ...because Mystic Theurge doesn't give you spells known/level on your wizard side.
Another suggestion: take arcane armor proficiency so you can wear armor. Get mithril chain mail which you are proficient in thanks to cleric levels. Either that or take a level of Monk and futher capitalize on your outrageous Wis.
Wizard thuerge rocksIt's not that simple, particularly not within PFS.
At 12th level a MT with the Empyreal bloodline is going to have a 28 Wisdom (17 start, +3 from levels, +6 headband*). That gives him 6 bonus first level spells and four bonus spells for every other level (combined for both classes). The DC for spells the pure wisdom caster is going to be Spell Level +9.
Even if you figure a fairly min-maxed build Wizard MT with starting stats (7,10,12,19,17,7) then bumping WIS and INT once and adding a Headband +4 INT/ WIS you would get a 24 INT and a 22 WIS, which gives you spell DCs of Level +7 and +6... Bonus spells based on casting stat are similarly lower, particularly at the higher levels. (only 1 bonus spell per level for 3 level + spells)
As for having every single spell in his spell book, I don't think you understand PFS very well. He would have to pay for something like 200 scrolls to get all the spells from 1st through 5th level. Even if he just focused on the good ones thats a lot of scrolls. Particularly when you figure that thuerges don't get two free spells per level as they advance. The Sorcerer based thuerge can buy stuff with all that gold... like pearls of power or metamagic rods (like lesser quicken for the ~16 third level spells he has in his arsenal).
Also keep in mind, while the sorcerer spell list is pretty limiting for a normal sorcerer, the thuerge can lean on the versatility of the cleric's spell list which seriously limits that handicap.
At even numbered levels when the wizard thuerge has higher level spells it's pretty close but at the odd numbered levels the empyreal sorcerer is going to seriously outgun the wizard in every way.
** spoiler omitted **
So in one incredibly narrow style of play a sorcerer theurge has a small kinda sorta advantage.
If you define "incredibly narrow" as "broadly accepted as evidenced by the posts of several experienced people here" and "small kinda sorta advantage" as "the large advantage of not having to keep two casting stats high thus not suffering from MAD and able to keep their DCs up while not having to spend a ton of money on expensive spell books and magic items to supliment their stats" ...then, yes.
On the early entry thought line,
A first-level Inquisitor with the Fate inquisition from Ultimate Magic can cast Augury (2nd level cleric spell) 1/day at first level. Does this qualify a Wizard 3/Inquisitor 1 for MT?
No. You get it as a spell-like ability. You need to be able to cast second level spells from your spell list, i.e. 2nd level inquisitor spells as an inquisitor, 2nd level bard spells as a bard, second level wizard spells as a wizard... :-)
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No. You get it as a spell-like ability. You need to be able to cast second level spells from your spell list, i.e. 2nd level inquisitor spells as an inquisitor, 2nd level bard spells as a bard, second level wizard spells as a wizard... :-)On the early entry thought line,
A first-level Inquisitor with the Fate inquisition from Ultimate Magic can cast Augury (2nd level cleric spell) 1/day at first level. Does this qualify a Wizard 3/Inquisitor 1 for MT?
How about a cleric with the Wards subdomain, who can cast Arcane Lock (sor/wiz 2) from a 1st level domain slot?
How about a cleric with the Wards subdomain, who can cast Arcane Lock (sor/wiz 2) from a 1st level domain slot?No. You get it as a spell-like ability. You need to be able to cast second level spells from your spell list, i.e. 2nd level inquisitor spells as an inquisitor, 2nd level bard spells as a bard, second level wizard spells as a wizard... :-)On the early entry thought line,
A first-level Inquisitor with the Fate inquisition from Ultimate Magic can cast Augury (2nd level cleric spell) 1/day at first level. Does this qualify a Wizard 3/Inquisitor 1 for MT?
No, you gain that as a first level spell for your cleric, it effectively becomes a cleric 1 spell.
There is no legal shortcut to enter MT like that, I am pretty sure of that ;-)
Frustrating; qualifying for MT at lvl 4 would make it a good prestige class in one fell swoop.
I am rather glad about it. It would be completely overpowered and eliminate the need for many others.
There are still enough - IMO - good ways to enter MT, I refer to one of my previous posts in my thread. Just not the "oh my god I so rock and rule with dual casting classes at full progression and no hard way to earn it" type of class that many apparently wish for :-)
It is a good class and does well what it was designed to do.
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I think how good MT is depends largely on your expectations. If you are playing in a campaign that essentially ends at 12th level such as PFS, it is very tough to make the Thuerge fun and enjoyable because you spend levels 5-9 pretty far behind the curve and don't really catch back up until right about character 'retirement' age.
I'm not saying it can't work in PFS, but there are going to be some frustrating levels in-between where everyone else is tossing fireballs and flame strikes and you are tossing second level spells. Your suggestions for going higher level in the base class are solid, but if you go seven levels in one class before switching then you are only going to be Thuerge for 2 levels and you could arguably emulate the abilities of your 'lesser' class using feats, class abilities, or even items without the huge sacrifice in core character power.
For example:
Frustrating; qualifying for MT at lvl 4 would make it a good prestige class in one fell swoop.
Only issue I have with the early entry is that a spontaneous full caster will be getting their highest level spells at the same time as a early entry prepared Mystic Theurge.
If it were up to me, I would recommend that a MT wait until level 5 before entry.
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I wouldn't say it's overpowered. The only benefit to being a MT is having a ton of spells. Where you lose out is on class abilities. All of your fun combo classes you listed get most of their oomph from class abilities that the MT does not get.
Your bard/oracle/MT will suck at performances, have an incomplete mystery, lag behind on bardic skill abilities, and cast at lower strength than either of the base classes. With two spontaneous casters, you're not exactly rolling in spells known, either. Your BAB will suck, limiting your usefulness in physical combat.
Paladin/Sorc/MT is going to make you wait until lvl 11 to get that first level of MT, and your Sorc bloodline abilities will be 8 levels behind at that point, not to mention that you'll be casting as a 5th level sorc (yay 2nd level spells) at 12th level. Your BAB will suck and you won't be wearing armor, and your HP will be low, so no melee either.
The other combos you listed suffer from the same problem: You have both greatly diminished casting ability and greatly diminished access to class features, with a tiny bit of diversity in spells known to make up for it. I just don't see a way to make this good.
Compare MT with Dragon Disciple, which can actually be really good for bard/paladin/oracle/sorcerer mashups. A pal X/sorc X/DD X can choose to be focused on either casting or physical fighting, and do it very well - and have weak casting or fighting to boot. I'm playing a Bard/Paladin/DD at the moment who's a great skill monkey and frontline fighter, with a dash of utility casting.
I really don't think sacrificing class-defining class abilities AND casting progression is worth picking up low-strength casting from another class.
The best kind of MT in my mind is the wiz/clr, who don't really have a ton of class features to lose. Wiz3/Clr3/MT 6 is at least a reasonable character, casting 5th level spells from both class at 12th level. With this kind of character, however, your caster level checks and save DCs will suffer (due to MAD). Enemies making the saves or eating your spells with SR negates your entire shtick, but at 12th level you're doing ok, and at level 20 you'll be doing ok as Wiz3/Clr3/MT10/X3.
Without early entry at 2/2, none of the spontaneous class combos you like will do well.
I wouldn't say it's overpowered. The only benefit to being a MT is having a ton of spells. Where you lose out is on class abilities. All of your fun combo classes you listed get most of their oomph from class abilities that the MT does not get.
Your bard/oracle/MT will suck at performances, have an incomplete mystery, lag behind on bardic skill abilities, and cast at lower strength than either of the base classes. With two spontaneous casters, you're not exactly rolling in spells known, either. Your BAB will suck, limiting your usefulness in physical combat.
Paladin/Sorc/MT is going to make you wait until lvl 11 to get that first level of MT, and your Sorc bloodline abilities will be 8 levels behind at that point, not to mention that you'll be casting as a 5th level sorc (yay 2nd level spells) at 12th level. Your BAB will suck and you won't be wearing armor, and your HP will be low, so no melee either.
The other combos you listed suffer from the same problem: You have both greatly diminished casting ability and greatly diminished access to class features, with a tiny bit of diversity in spells known to make up for it. I just don't see a way to make this good.
Compare MT with Dragon Disciple, which can actually be really good for bard/paladin/oracle/sorcerer mashups. A pal X/sorc X/DD X can choose to be focused on either casting or physical fighting, and do it very well - and have weak casting or fighting to boot. I'm playing a Bard/Paladin/DD at the moment who's a great skill monkey and frontline fighter, with a dash of utility casting.
I really don't think sacrificing class-defining class abilities AND casting progression is worth picking up low-strength casting from another class.
The best kind of MT in my mind is the wiz/clr, who don't really have a ton of class features to lose. Wiz3/Clr3/MT 6 is at least a reasonable character, casting 5th level spells from both class at 12th level. With this kind of character, however, your caster level checks and save DCs will suffer (due to...
Well, problem with your reasoning is this: If the class features really were that more important, then MT and other prestige classes wouldn't really be considered in the first place. Most seem to want to enter it really early though, so spells >>> class features for them.
Also, I gave those sample class combinations to ensure better survivability and less pain while you wait to get into MT. ALso to give some people an idea how you can use that class differently than 9 levels divine/ 9 levels arcane caster.
It's very simple for me:
You want great power: Eat the lag, go through the valley of tears until you become MT, then rock.
You want versatility: Really easy prerequisites allow you to pick it up at almost any time.
So I keep my opinion on this matter: The class is well-designed, the trade-offs are worth it. You gotta EARN power like this - and the class makes you do exactly that :-)
I remeber a scholarly priest from DRAGON magazine; I think he used INT instead of WIS for his divine spells.
Is there a character class like that now?
Also, is there a character class that uses WIS for aracane spells.
I suspect either class may make the Mystic Theurge a better option.
Thanks.
No priest like that, no.
But the empyreal sorcerer uses wisdom for casting, making it a natural choice for the arcane side (if you wanna go for full casting). Also great for monks to dip into.. :-)
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There was a class in 3.5 that allowed casting prepared and spontaneous arcane spells. Instead of having a big requirement it had a small entry 'cost' but skipped increasing caster level in one of the classes until it eventually reduced the two caster level to classlevel - 3 at a much higher level. I personally preferred that approach more than the way Mystic Thuerge does it because the hit to power level was gradual and it didn't require a fairly nerfed character at the beginning of the class. I think it required caster level three in one class and only first level of casting in the other. (I'm sure someone will remember this more than I)