Some of you folks might remember a comic book character by the name of Star-Lord. His signature weapon was the Element Gun, a device that could draw on any of the 4 elements, which he'd usually use to bash around his foes.
In a sequel comic, a man finds Star Lord's sentient ship, over a decade since the title hero has disappeared and takes upon his mantle. As the plot develops he needs to break into a super secure fortress.
So he decides that his strategy would be to drop something on it... Something like a comet. Not having any handy nearby he decides to create his own. Using the Element Gun in space he draws tremendous amounts of Earth and Water to create his own big rock embedded snowball, he keeps drawing the matter even after Ship warns him that the original Star Lord never drew so much at a time. Ignoring her he continues until he gets his comet and uses it to smash through the fortress as planned, succeeding in his short term goal.
Some time later, they answer a distress call on a planetary region that for some reason is undergoing major tectonic upheaval and other sorts of strange natural disasters. When he lands, the novitate Star Lord learns that this is where the Element Gun draws it's elements from, via the use of superscience matter transporters placed in various areas, and that his overuse of the weapon has caused the disasters here.
Moral of the story?: The classic trope is that misuse of magic comes back to bite you in the end. Now the mechanists in our community will immediately jump in and say that nothing in the rules provides for any such consequence. This is where you the world creator has to step in. The use of a create water orison isn't exactly rocket science. Surely it would have occurred countless times that such magics could be used to irrigate deserts, water crops, and such. The fact that despite that it's not in common practice must imply that there is a reason for not doing so. Any world with magic, will have people who misuse it... and...
Element Gun is Super Science, Magic is Magic :P
Star Lord is not Doctor Strange.
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Element Gun is Super Science, Magic is Magic :P
Star Lord is not Doctor Strange.
Need I mention Clarke's Law and it's reverse?
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!
Star Trek technology is essentially magic wrapped up in chrome and plastic. Science Fiction in general. is but one subgenre of Fantasy.
Element Gun is Super Science, Magic is Magic :P
Star Lord is not Doctor Strange.
Need I mention Clarke's Law and it's reverse?
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!
Star Trek technology is essentially magic wrapped up in chrome and plastic. Science Fiction in general. is but one subgenre of Fantasy.
Science that try to sound "feasible" still answers to fundamental laws of physics like conservation of mass/energy. For example Star Trek technology uses General Relativity to replicate faster-than-like speed - that is Star Trek ships don't actually go faster than light, they bend the spacetime to traverse an effectively shorter distance, and this does not contradict what we know of physics, we just don't know HOW to do it yet.
Magic can say f##& it all and follow its own, unrelated, set of rules.
And that's the difference between a Doctor Strange and Mr Fantastic
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Element Gun is Super Science, Magic is Magic :P
Star Lord is not Doctor Strange.
Need I mention Clarke's Law and it's reverse?
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!
Star Trek technology is essentially magic wrapped up in chrome and plastic. Science Fiction in general. is but one subgenre of Fantasy.
Science that try to sound "feasible" still answers to fundamental laws of physics like conservation of mass/energy. For example Star Trek technology uses General Relativity to replicate faster-than-like speed - that is Star Trek ships don't actually go faster than light, they bend the spacetime to traverse an effectively shorter distance, and this does not contradict what we know of physics, we just don't know HOW to do it yet.
Magic can say f%$& it all and follow its own, unrelated, set of rules.
And that's the difference between a Doctor Strange and Mr Fantastic
At the time Star Trek was WRITTEN, there was no such science, not even in theory. To those of us who knew physics, it was hard to restrain a laugh every time Geordi LeForge threw out the term "Heisenberg Compensator".
At the time of TOS, even the numbers didn't make sense. Warp Factor was meant to equate to Warp Number cubed times the speed of Light. Which meant that Warp 1 was C, and even at Warp 2, the Enterprise's normal crusing speed, it would still take years to travel most distances in space. So I redefined Warp Factor as the measure of Drama level.
It's worth noting that 'stopping to take on water' is used as a plot hook in the second book of S&S as well.
Given that there is an NPC class (adept) with Create Water on its spell list, water should be an issue only if you lose your divine spellcaster or you need more water than your caster can conveniently provide.
Either the writers of adventures should take that into account, or the rules developers should impose a daily limit on how much water a single caster can create.
LazarX the answer to why it isn't done, in my opinion at least, is who would actually bother. A druid wouldn't he might upset the balance of nature and that's not good. Only a handful of clerics would have a deity who might even approve of such measures but doubtful as for even a small desert your having a huge number of clerics doing little else. Wizards doubtfully would find a reason. And if anyone actually did try those above mentioned druids would likely want a word with you.
This is a pretty hot topic and has been since 3rd edition (in my experience). Personally, though the wording is a bit fuzzy - because let's be honest, if the wording of the RAW wasn't so muffed up, this would be a very, very short discussion - I allow all of the casters who had Cantrips/Orisons to use them pretty well infinitely. First off, the 0 level spells aren't exactly game breaking, and second it gives those that have had to cast all of their spells in a given day and don't have the chance to rest something to contribute. True, a lot of divine casters are basically meat-shields with less calories when they run out of magic, but Wizards and Sorcerers are boned when they deplete their spells. At least with some creative playing, the Cantrips can still be useful.
In 3.x cantrips and orisons were not unlimited. This is a specific change that Paizo made for Pathfinder.
Note that wizards can cast an unlimited number of 0-level spells per day. The number on Table 3–16 indicates the number that can be prepared each day.
There is some variation of this statement in every other class in the Conversion Guide that has 0-level spells.
That explains why food is so expensive! All those clerics and druids running around preventing famine (has a famine ever been described in Golarion?) are costly!
In a completely non-serious rebuttal to the infinite casting of Create Water to make an oasis in a desert--ignoring the fact that not all ground is arable soil--consider evaporation. Have you splashed the cement around a pool on a scortching day in Colorado? You can watch it disappear. A quick Google search taught me that in 100 degree F air (ignoring the effect of variables like atmospheric pressure and humidity), water evaporates at 1.7 gallons per round (6 second). So by the time the 3rd level cleric has watered his fourth square meter of land, the first square meter he watered has mostly evaporated.
Blake's Tiger, could you cite your source regarding the rate of evaporation?
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Blake's Tiger, could you cite your source regarding the rate of evaporation?
Sure, if you really want it.
F. Reif, Fundamentals of Statistical and Thermal Physics, McGraw Hill, 1965
Yes, there are half a dozen or more variable that affect the evaporation speed, including but not limited to: temperature of the water, temperature of the water at the air-water interface, wind speed, humidity, air pressure, and since we're talking about evaporating off of a sutface, the temperature of that surface and how it is heated (or not) by the sunlight. Which is why this was not a serious rebuttal. Mixing real world thermal physics with a fantasy game ruled by d20s isn't going to get me anywhere. :)
It's worth noting that 'stopping to take on water' is used as a plot hook in the second book of S&S as well.
Which is completely ridiculous so I
A quick Google search taught me that in 100 degree F air (ignoring the effect of variables like atmospheric pressure and humidity), water evaporates at 1.7 gallons per round (6 second).
That is.... ludicrous. That's not right -- that's not even wrong. That's like saying a roadrunner travels at 250 meters or a house has an area of 67 Sieverts; the units don't even make sense.
Moral of the story?: The classic trope is that misuse of magic comes back to bite you in the end. Now the mechanists in our community will immediately jump in and say that nothing in the rules provides for any such consequence. This is where you the world creator has to step in. The use of a create water orison isn't exactly rocket science. Surely it would have occurred countless times that such magics could be used to irrigate deserts, water crops, and such. The fact that despite that it's not in common practice must imply that there is a reason for not doing so. Any world with magic, will have people who misuse it... and...
*Rumplestiltskin voice* Magic always comes at a price, dearie!
Granted, I'm no physist, so I can't defend the rate. The rate they calculated was 1.1 kg per square meter per second, but who's going to understand that? So I tried to convert it into something a little more common (maybe they didn't mean 1.1 kg of water per exposed square meter of water per second like I thought, I have no idea).
But I still think hordes of level one clerics watering fields with Create Water is why food costs so much in the game! :)
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The water disappears after 24 hours. It says so in the Spell. It's magic. Not physics.
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Granted, I'm no physist, so I can't defend the rate. The rate they calculated was 1.1 kg per square meter per second, but who's going to understand that? So I tried to convert it into something a little more common (maybe they didn't mean 1.1 kg of water per exposed square meter of water per second like I thought, I have no idea).
That's exactly what it means, but you can't calculate that into 1.7 gallons per round in any meaningful way. Evaporation has to be (mass or volume) per (time) per (area) in order to mean anything. Who's going to understand "1.1 kg per square meter per second" you ask? Anyone who understands evaporation at all will understand that. Anyone who doesn't understand that literally doesn't matter if you're talking about measuring a rate of evaporation. They're not part of the discussion if they don't understand it; they're just spectators.
To do some quick estimation: 1.1 kg of water is about a liter. 4 liters is about a gallon. A square meter is about 10 square feet. There are 25 square feet in a 5ftx5ft pathfinder unit square. So 1.1 kg per square meter per second is about .25 gallon per 10 square feet per second, or about .625 (i.e. 5/8) gallons per 25 sqft per second. That's a little more than half a gallon per second, whereas create water is creating 2 gallons of water per caster level every round. And that's at a very hot temperature, and ignores evaporative cooling (even if a field is 100 F to begin with, the dirt won't remain 100 F with that much water evaporating out of it every second). So... in conclusion, we probably don't need to worry about how much water is evaporating out of the dirt as the cleric is casting his spell, in the unlikely event that a cleric is being used to water crops to begin with.
Cool.
This is totally tongue in cheek: wouldn't anyone who understands evaporation be able to convert gallons/sq. meter/round to kg/sq. meter/second?
I was talking about the conversion of a desert to an oasis, though, and the Sahara averages around 100 F, not temperate farming.
But it would be just as valid to say that created water doesn't evaporate under any circumstance.
Magic.
Yes, cantrips are unlimited, at will casting. Yes, some of them do trivialize certain situations that can sometimes be dramatic in the real world (shipwrecked on an island, trapped in an underground maze with limited light sources, etc). However, my strategy is to not rely on these things to create tension or challenge. If they do, bonus.
The water disappears after 24 hours. It says so in the Spell. It's magic. Not physics.
But that 24 hours is simply a maximum in case it is left in its container and not consumed or otherwise altered. Created water is not immune to normal evaporation, so there is no guarantee that it will last 24 hours. Also, it is fairly commonly accepted that the water does not disappear if somebody drinks it -- otherwise, you could cause somebody to die of thirst by giving them nothing to drink but created water.
Although an interesting thought has occurred to me -- what happens to the water when it leaves the body of somebody who drinks it? How much water could you save if you created water, had people drink as much as they could without risking water intoxication and then urinate into another container, which is then purified with Purify Food and Drink? Now the limiting factor would be how much water a human being can safely process in such a manner.
This is totally tongue in cheek: wouldn't anyone who understands evaporation be able to convert gallons/sq. meter/round to kg/sq. meter/second?
I'm not sure what's tongue-in-cheek about that. Yes, of course, as long as they can do the math and know the conversion factors between the units.
Yes, cantrips and orisons can be cast over and over again for infinity. However you've only got 3, maybe 4 of them you can pick. So for example you might pick Dancing Lights, Ray of Frost and Resistance. You can keep casting 1d3 Cold damage over and over again all day.
You cannot however swap through all of your cantrips/orisons infinitely and just cast any of them over and over unless you're a non-prepared caster.
As for the whole Create Water/end deserts thing, there are tons of arguments for and against this. Bottom line: in Golarion there are deserts. In PFS there are deserts. I suppose that means that that infinite Create Water doesn't work to destroy deserts in the default setting, but it could in yours.
At the end of the day they're 0-level. Say that out loud. ZERO level. They are meant to be so weak that they don't even rate a positive number for their level. One of them even says it has no practical use in combat (Prestidigitation). Rather than try to figure how to break the world on the back of a single cantrip, perhaps there are better uses for such strategic minds.
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Regardless of how much water (or food, or sunlight, or air, or disease-curing, or resurrection magic) can be created magically (or via other supernatural means, such as natural gates to the elemental planes or whatnot), I assume that the game world as written exists as described *despite* the presence of such magic, and that's it's 'built-in' to the setting.
So a desert nation / area is a desert *despite* the presence of water-creation magic, and would be even worse, if that magic didn't exist.
Instead of assuming that the designers of the setting didn't know about create water, purify water or create food & drink when they designed the setting, I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and run with the notion that the setting works as presented *with* those magics in play, and that areas that one might assume would be radically changed by those magics, are only existing as they do *because* of those magics.
Perhaps it's a side-effect of growing up reading Marvel Comics, where you'd win a 'no prize' for not just pointing out an inconsistency, but for offering an explanation for how it could be reconciled, but I prefer to find possible solutions for questions as to where the 1000 years of accumulated snowfall goes in Irrisen (it's not 1000 years of winters, plural, it's 1000 years of the same winter, relentless and unending, timeless and fey!), or why Rahadoum, described by gods-propagandists as cursed by the gods, is the greenest and most fertile land in it's entire latitude, according to the map.
As for infinite cantrips, I'd love to see a bizarre wizard / sorcerer / whatever archetype that used higher level spell slots entirely to cast massively enhanced versions of the cantrips they've mastered, and cannot actually cast higher level spells. There was a 3rd party 3.X book that had a 'Master of Small Magics' along that theme, and it could be neat, if freaky, to have a 6th level Sorcerer who was casting enhanced (far beyond metamagic) versions of acid splash or daze, instead of fireball or haste.
Simple solution for me...
I just won't have it.
Always having water, light, food, the ability to detect magic often ruins a good story.
So for me there will be no infinite cantrips. Period.
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Simple solution for me...
I just won't have it.Always having water, light, food, the ability to detect magic often ruins a good story.
So for me there will be no infinite cantrips. Period.
A: Thread necro, from 3 years ago.
B: In which case you are no longer playing Pathfinder, but a different game. This is the Paizo Pathfinder Rules Forum, where the actual rules, not homebrew rules, are being discussed. Homebrew, which you are espousing, has its own forum.
Simple solution for me...
I just won't have it.Always having water, light, food, the ability to detect magic often ruins a good story.
So for me there will be no infinite cantrips. Period.
RAW is RAW mate.
The rules say you get infinite of those, that is it.
There is value in talking about the rules one dont undestand and such , but in this case i think everyone agrees about what is written there.
Now I got curious to how the OP, with his interpretation, handled Sorcerers and such, for which you only have the number of known cantrips but no limited slots per day.
I guess I'll never know.
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There seems to be a substantial number of people indicating that you can cast cantrips/orisons an infinite number of times a day,
Notice that certain 3.5 cantrips/orisons are not present in Pathfinder, such as Cure Minor Wounds? It's because that such an orison WOULD be infinite healing in this system.
Cantrips/0-level spells aren't reusable simply because they're prepared in your 0-level spell slots. If you want more you can put them in your 1st level spell slots and cast those all day as well.I just want more input on this, it never even occurred to me that this might be the case.
First off I hesitate to even comment as this is such an old thread. If you want to start a new one, I would suggest you do that to ask your questions.
That being said, here is the rule (as has been already quoted but ignored for some reason):
"Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below)."
The words "are not expended when cast" is pretty much straightforward and means that you can cast them once per round for ten rounds a minute and 60 minutes an hour up until you get fatigued and then you can continue to cast them but you will be a tired caster. So flood the world several gallons of water at a time or clean up the world a Prestidigitation at a time, it is within the rules and really not a big deal.
If the DM does not like it, he can send a water elemental lord to make the culprit stop siphoning off water from wherever it comes from or Mr Clean can show up to have the Prestidigitation crazed caster end his cleaning spree or whatever. That is not the subject of the rules forum.
As the rules stand, yes, 0 level spells, call them cantrips or orisons, can be cast as many times as a caster wants as long as he has an action to do so.
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If the DM does not like it, he can send...Mr Clean...to have the Prestidigitation crazed caster end his cleaning spree or whatever.
Never has such a magnificent scenario been put together to keep spellcasters in check.
Besides, cantrips are so paltry it shouldn't break anyone's game to be able to cast them all day long.
True.
But it really freaks out some of the 3.5 DMs who hate you 'can cast Detect magic all day long". Generally they also banned Warlocks.
Can we get an official ruling/faq entry/ errata on this? Infinite casting of anything seems rediculous. By one threads Calculations a lvl 4 caster could create minimum 11,520 gallons of water a day. A half dozen threads are stating the Spells Per Day table does not limit the number of times a cantrip can be cast in a day, only how many you can have prepared.
There already is- it's called "The Rules".
This is a pretty hot topic and has been since 3rd edition (in my experience). Personally, though the wording is a bit fuzzy - because let's be honest, if the wording of the RAW wasn't so muffed up, this would be a very, very short discussion -
No, there is no rule that so worded can't be mis-understood.
Cantrips/0-level spells aren't reusable simply because they're prepared in your 0-level spell slots. If you want more you can put them in your 1st level spell slots and cast those all day as well.I just want more input on this, it never even occurred to me that this might be the case.First off I hesitate to even comment as this is such an old thread. If you want to start a new one, I would suggest you do that to ask your questions.
That being said, here is the rule (as has been already quoted but ignored for some reason):
"Cantrips: Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from a prohibited school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below)."
The words "are not expended when cast" is pretty much straightforward and means that you can cast them once per round for ten rounds a minute and 60 minutes an hour up until you get fatigued and then you can continue to cast them but you will be a tired caster. So flood the world several gallons of water at a time or clean up the world a Prestidigitation at a time, it is within the rules and really not a big deal.
If the DM does not like it, he can send a water elemental lord to make the culprit stop siphoning off water from wherever it comes from or Mr Clean can show up to have the Prestidigitation crazed caster end his cleaning spree or whatever. That is not the subject of the rules forum.
As the rules stand, yes, 0 level spells, call them cantrips or orisons, can be cast as many times as a caster wants as long as he has an action to do so.
True, but what Waltz seemed to be saying that Isonaroc seemed to want clarified (if I'm misrepresenting either of you, then I apologize) was that orisons and cantrips qualified as infinite-use whether they were 0-level or not. I.e., is a metamagically-enhanced Quickened Ray of Frost still a cantrip even though it's no longer a 0-level spell?
Of course, your rules quote would seem to already have the answer. "Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells" has "cantrips" and "0-level spells" analogous to each other. As in, if it's no longer a 0-level spell (via, say, a metamagic feat), then it's no longer a cantrip, either. And is no longer subject to a cantrip's infinite-use rule.
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True, but what Waltz seemed to be saying that Isonaroc seemed to want clarified (if I'm misrepresenting either of you, then I apologize) was that orisons and cantrips qualified as infinite-use whether they were 0-level or not. I.e., is a metamagically-enhanced Quickened Ray of Frost still a cantrip even though it's no longer a 0-level spell?
Of course, your rules quote would seem to already have the answer. "Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells" has "cantrips" and "0-level spells" analogous to each other. As in, if it's no longer a 0-level spell (via, say, a metamagic feat), then it's no longer a cantrip, either. And is no longer subject to a cantrip's infinite-use rule.
Basically what I wanted to know was "is a 0-level spell still able to be repeatedly cast if it's prepared in a higher spell slot."
First off I hesitate to even comment as this is such an old thread. If you want to start a new one, I would suggest you do that to ask your questions.
1) Old thread or no, it's active again, so I don't see what the hang up is.
2) You didn't actually address my issue.|
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I'd have absolutely no problem letting a player use a L1 spell slot to prepare a L0 spell to use ad infinitum. It isn't going to break the game, and they're essentially giving up more powerful abilities for the chance to cast more frequently. There are 22 cantrips. I see no reason they couldn't prepare them all. You want to put a L0 spell in a L3 slot instead of prepping fireball? Knock yourself out. I'll take your d3 of damage any day of the week.
Basically what I wanted to know was "is a 0-level spell still able to be repeatedly cast if it's prepared in a higher spell slot."
"These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again."
"These spells", not "these spell slots" (besides, Sorcerers and such don't even have spell slots for cantrips).
You can put them anywhere; level 0, level 5, level 2015, under your armpits, on erupting calderas, in granny's stew, inside your closet with a Babau, buried with your pirate treasure... they still are never expended, by virtue of their own nature.
When Pathfinder first came out, I had a druid fall into a pit without the party. After failing 10 climb checks in a row, she realized she had unlimited castings of Create Water and ranks in swim. She filled the pit with water and swam out.
As fas as I know, everybody else has been using 0 level spells as if they can be cast as often as the player wants.
Basically what I wanted to know was "is a 0-level spell still able to be repeatedly cast if it's prepared in a higher spell slot."Yes a cantrip is defined as "zero level spells" not as "spells prepared in a 0 level spell slot."
So if you prepare acid splash in a 1st level slot, it's still a zero level spell in a 1st level slot, so it's still a cantrip because only the first part of that is the definition.
A HEIGHTENED cantrip would only be able to be cast once, since that actually raises the effective level of the spell. But that's the only reason I can think of. Note that other metamagic, though, would not stop it from being still infinite. You can prepare a quickened, dazing acid orb and cast it infinitely many times by RAW using just one 7th level spell slot.
That isn't true under Paizo's rules.
The rules as intended and as they should be interpreted are that you only get to cast 0 level spells at will. Once they're prepared with higher level spell slots, they follow all the rules for how higher level spell slots work.
Allowing all cantrips to be cast at will despite that spell slot you used to prepare the spell is an interesting house rule, though.
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JJ saying stuff in a thread =/= rules.
The actual text seems very very clear that only heighten spell changes the spell level, and every other metamagic definitely does not change spell level, and cantrips are definitely defined as their level not their slot.
Not seeing any iffy grammar or any other wiggle room there in the RAW.
Fine. But Jason's thread statements did = rules back in 2009. Follow the thread I linked to a bit further and you will find this.
Folks, James is right on here.
If you use a higher level slot, for any reason, be it because it is modified with metamagic, or you just prepared it in a higher slot, it is consumed when cast, just like any other spell. Only when it uses a 0-level slot, it is not consumed.
There is some poor wording there that I am going to correct the next time I am able.
And please folks.. play nice.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Okay, maybe I misunderstood the issue. If you are asking what a Quickend Create Water spell is, then the answer is it is a 4th level spell and as such takes up a 4th level slot and the caster may only prepare/cast as many of those as he has 4th level slots.
The word Cantrip or Orison does not make it an infinitely castable spell. The fact that it is a 0 level spell is what makes it infinitely castable.
The same is true of any 0 level spell that has metamagic applied to it that takes it into a 1st level or higher slot.
Maybe I am still misunderstanding this but I hope nobody is suggesting a Maximised Acid Splash is still a 0 level spell and hence I can cast as many as I want in a day. That is not what the rules even come close to saying.
PS the reason why thread necromancy or reviving of old threads is not a great idea is that many of the original posters may not be around or aware that comments are being made or that they are being asked questions, etc. it is just usually best form to start a new thread and ask your questions in your way. That way they can reference the older dead threads but not have to revive them. Either way it is no skin off my back but I was just answering the retort to my comment on reviving the thread.