I think this should be moved to the advice or PFS section. I have heard PFS is difficult, but I can't say for sure. I guess talking to PFS players is better.
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I think PFS is a fine way to not only meet new people who also play Pathfinder, but a fine way to meet new people who also play Pathfinder AND are willing to help you into all aspects of the game :)
As far as difficulty/experience, I'd say it actually sets a baseline that home campaigns aim to 'exceed'. The GM doesn't have to make up his own adventures, the players don't get hit with CRs beyond their wealth-by-level power, etc. (aside from playing up.. but if you go 'hard mode', well that's on you!) if anything, PFS scenarios are often bemoaned as being too easy/unchallenging.
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It really depends on your DM and your fellow players how difficult the games are. There are some scenarios that are on the board with a killer reputation, that I went into with 2-3 clerics, and because it was undead-heavy, we took maybe one hit as a party.... the clerics were out of channels by the end though.
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Well I'd suggest checking out a PFS event. Whether you play or GM makes little difference, but being new to the game I'd start by playing a few scenarios before taking the leap to try GMing them.
Not only will you get to meet new people.. you'll be able to observe GMs and learn tips from their styles, and if you explain that you're new to Pathfinder but excited to learn, it's been my experience that people will be quite accepting of your experience level and if anything be over-eager to offer advice.
Encumberance & other minutae is often outright ignored in PFS, as 'character sheet audits' take time and time is a very precious commodity in PFS... slots are expected to assemble, introduce one another, get set up, play the entire adventure, and resolve after-game issues (buying loot, getting cures, etc) all within a 4 hour block.
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PFS is not difficult. The vast majority of our group is new players and non-optimizing players. I'm probably the worst of the bunch and I'm fairly conservative. The only 'problem' I see with PFS is the lack of filters on who can play in organized play. This means you are going to bump into play styles and people who you wouldn't normally want to play with in your home group. That can be irritating on occasion, it can also be fun and interesting.
My favorite thing about PFS is that it is a great way to meet gamers, in fact I can't think of any better way. Even if you don't plan on being involved in organized play much (or you try it and don't care for it), you might consider PFS and just so you can socialize with other gamers. Our current home group is largely people who met up playing in PFS.
Finally, every PFS group I've been in has a different micro-culture. If you find one group boring or frustrating and there are other groups in the area, consider trying one of the other nearby groups.
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PFS is a great way to join the community and play the game. I would suggest find a group you can play with first, play a character to reaffirm your understanding of the core rules and also the extra rules imposed by PFS.
Once that is under your belt, ask to GM a PFS scenario, preferably low level (i.e. for level 1 to 2 characters) and when you do be upfront about your level of experience GMing PF.
In terms of knowing encumbrance and how other classes work etc, I would tend to assume players know how their characters work but say up front "I trust you to let me know how your classes work, but if you're unsure we can look it up" the player should have the books that detail every aspect of their class, so don't worry if you don't have Ultimate Magic as if a player is playing a Magus, they should have the book with them.
I have just GMed my 4th PFS session under PF rules (I GMed under 3.5 rules in season zero) and I still haven't read the PF core rulebook all the way through, so I am still unsure of how some classes work. I did have someone playing a Samurai and I did have to be explicit when he stated his character was challenging an NPC "OK, tell me how that works".
I am also upfront by saying "I am currently playing in a D&D 4e game, run D&D3.5 normally, and only play Pathfinder in PFS, so I may confuse a few things or get a rule wrong - if I do, and its not a big deal, let it go and maybe tell me at the break, however if its a big deal call me on it"
In the session I ran I did make a mistake thinking that someone grappling in PF could make an AoO* and someone reminded me of the rule (pointing at my own condition cards!) and it all moved on.
*In my defence I know in 3.5 you can't make AoOs when grappling as you don't threaten, but I remember noticing that in PF you do threaten when being grappled and thus can give flanking bonuses. What I forgot was although you PF allows you to threaten it still prohibits AoOs.
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Another option: the PFS home game. Because PFS does have some limits on the heavier aspects of the system like item crafting and high level/permanent effects, it makes a pretty good home campaign. With a home game you are not time restricted as you are in a con or game store session, so you can have plenty of time to explain rules as you go. You can hand pick your scenarios to make a more cohesive storyline, and the scenarios are cheap, ready made and balanced adventures, balance being one of the hardest skills for new GMs to master.
This also gives you, the more experienced and game-hungry player, the opportunity to take a character or two outside of the group to meet other players.
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Even non-caster melee types can be complex. What's my bonus to hit when I'm fighting defensively.. power attacking.. and using two hands? Lots of complexity even if you don't have to worry about all the stats that come with spells.
The good news is PFS people have in my experience been pretty tolerant and helpful with people learning the rules.
And for slowing the game down, I wouldn't worry. It's rarely if ever the 'n00bs' who have to figure out their modifiers who are to blame... they're eager and attentive and on the ball. Unlike 'that guy' playing on his iPhone and has to be told twice it's his turn, or the who couldn't be bothered to figure out what spell he'd cast while everyone else was doing their actions and makes everyone wait on him while he shuffles through books, etc etc etc.
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I think you seeking answers that can't really be found on these boards.
Can it get that bad? Sure. Have I ever experienced it? No.
You just have to try it. Get the core rules, make a core character out of it, following the organized play rules (which really aren't difficult--they just limit some options) and give it a shot. There is nothing wasted, other than 4 hours if you decide not to do it. But if you have one bad table experience, don't let it spoil you to Society, the next could be the best experience you've ever had?
What area of the country do you live in? Do you know of a group running near you?
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I'll add an "I agree" to those who recommend just diving into PFS. Don't worry about understanding other people's characters - just make sure you understand your own. Pick a class, read about it in the Core Rulebook (or on the prd), and make a character. Browse the forums for advice - mostly classes have optimization guides that will teach you how to make a more effective character than at least 50% of PFS players. But don't feel like you have to be heavily optimized to be useful, either.
As for easiest class to play, I'm actually going to vote for cleric on that one. It's probably tougher to create a cleric than a fighter or barbarian, because you have to pick a deity, domains, and spells. But from a playing perspective, you'll be standing in the back firing a crossbow once in a while, and healing the rest of the group in combat. By the time you have the more powerful spells that can do more, you'll have had time to get used to the idea. And you can't have too many healers in a group, so you'll definitely be useful.
The easiest class to build and play with minimal knowledge is probably barbarian, though. Just grab a greatsword, bow and arrows, some light armor, and go rage in people's faces. You'll learn more details as you go, especially if you play with an experienced PFS group - I'm sure you'll get tons of advice. I pick barbarian over fighter as easier to start, just because you don't need to know about all the feats as a barbarian. You've got rage powers instead, but that's a shorter section of the book to read through. Again, look for threads here on the forums for some basic advice on good feats and rage powers, and you'll have no problem making an effective barb.
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Pathfinder Society Organized Play offers many things, such as what people wrote above: a chance to meet new people, to learn new play styles, and to see some of the "trickier" rules in action. For one who learns better by experience than by reading, it could be a great way not only to learn the full rules set, but also to pick up ways to teach the rules to others in an easily-digestible and quick way.
I think you'll find that most PFS GMs are very comfortable with new players, and a game store event will even have pre-generated characters and PFS registration numbers to help get you right into the action. What's more, you can take that great experience you had at a public event and transfer it directly to your home group by playing the introductory series entitled "First Steps," which familiarizes players with the setting, the Society, and the game mechanics. These are available for free on this Paizo site.
A PFS GM runs games so that everyone has a good time, and I'm sure that you'll have a great time wherever you live.
Edit: Playing a wizard isn't too complicated at lower levels, as you will have a chance to experiment a great deal with spell selection and discover what works really well for yourself. For me, sorcerers, bards, and other spontaneous spellcasters can be trickier to build just because you must select your known spells wisely. I agree with an earlier post that a cleric can be a fantastic learn-more-as-you-go class that is always welcomed at a table.
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Society play is actually pretty simple. Because you start at first level and are only responsible for your own character you can start out with very limited understanding and still have fun and contribute. You can then increase your knowledge as you level. For example who cares how combat expertise works if your character does not have it, focus on the Power Attack that you do have and you will be fine.
Further the senarios are not designed with the assuption of power players being the norm, so many senarios seem fairly simple to complete.
Finally, although I know experiences vary, I have never been at a table that was anything but helpful and understanding with "new" players. You can always find and sit next to the "rules lawyer' at the table. They are always happy to show their knowledge of the rules by advising you.
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Another option: the PFS home game.
I would like to second this recommendation. Try it out at home with friends with whom you are already comfortable, then think about moving on to playing PFS Organized Play at a game store event or elsewhere.
There is a lot to be said for taking small steps. There's no rush, and if you get to try out a PFS game once or twice, and see what the games are like and how they are written, it may make it more comfortable for you (and possibly other friends) to get into PFS. Also, this would alleviat the time requirement for running a fast game.
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Thank you everyone! I think I have a better idea of what to expect, and though cautiously, am more optimistic about it. I don't know what class to play yet, but this thread did eventually "talk" me through to that I might be looking for an event running the appropriately named "First Steps" scenario, so that's good to know!
My apologies if you mentioned this and I missed it, but roughly where do you live? If you're in the Phoenix metro area I'd be delighted to run for your group -- I'll even come to you.
Oh, and: Holy Wall of Text, Batman! :P
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Another option: the PFS home game.I would like to second this recommendation. Try it out at home with friends with whom you are already comfortable, then think about moving on to playing PFS Organized Play at a game store event or elsewhere.
+1 this. That is essentially what we do and we have 6-7 players show up every week with four rotating DMs, but we defiantly fall under this category. MegaCon is coming up in a couple weeks and our whole crew is going- for many it will be their first exposure to "public" PFS play. We have one player who has expressed concern she doesn't know the rules well enough to play PFS at a con but it would be a shame if fear would keep her from experiencing PFS "in the wild" as it were. :-) I can understand her worries- I still recall my first PFS game where I was still learning PF rules and having another player rudely and arrogantly lecture me on "ready" versus "delay". Although it could have put me off of playing at cons altogether, I am glad for all the fun and friendly players out there who more than make up for the bad apples.
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Right. Some GM's (and players) struggle with the idea that the character, being a professional in their field, would know things that the player may not.
For example, the player may forget to recover a weapon dropped in combat...the character would not.
A player may not be a actor or be very social, but if the character has a Charisma of 20+, don't expect the player to be able to recite a dissertation worth of an uber-high Diplomacy modifier.
Oftentimes, there is a level of reverse meta-gaming where the character knows more than the player. We shouldn't punish the player/table/game for that.
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I didn't mean to de-rail this thread... as I said, there are really good, nice, fun folks who make convention play a blast. (Even after said incident, two of the other players at the table came by and apologized on his behalf- they didn't want to see me turn away from PFS based solely on that experience.)
Bottom line, OP, please give it a try! There are some good times to be had in PFS play.
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On the way home she states that she doesn't want to every play her cleric again (Her RP maxed, personality build, pregant, AAsumer Cleric of the god of beer, that she couldn't stop talking about the week before the Con). She'll just go back to playing Sorcerers and Wizards, what she knows how to do. Because "they made me feel so STUPID, I didn't know what to do."
Oh no! Please, encourage her to play that character again, I've actually been waiting to hear stories of that character, and had rather hoped to run into her at a con some day! Don't let a bad play experience ruin such an amazing character concept!
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'll speak up as nosig's "authority guy" in question. I was a player at the table.
I'm very sorry I made your wife uncomfortable. Please pass along my apologies to her.
I was taking pains to avoid running her character for her, telling her what her cleric should do. (I've seen several situations of one player bossing around everybody at the table I discourage that as a GM, and I try hard not to be that guy as a player.) It was a tense situation, with my PC surounded by ghasts, helpless to prevent a coup de grace, and nobody else able to affect them. I wasn't sure whether her cleric had some archetype that wouldn't allow her to harm undead, or if she just didn't want to, and I handled it poorly.
Having said that, I don't believe I will be the last person that expects a player to know the basics of a class by the time her character's third level.
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Before you say "Holy wall of text!" This is sort of my introduction to the forums... I've posted in a few rules debates even though I'm a newb just because I love logic and debates, even if I'm not expert ;) but I don't really know anyone and am brand new to this.
So, hi Pathfinder folks! I'm looking for some advice on how/when to get involved in PFS or if I even should. My d20 experience is quite limited, as I never had friends who were into it when I was younger. I tried 4E a while back, but the experience both with the system and the people I was meeting was not good so I didn't continue. Recently I found out about Paizo from a coworker and decided to stick my big toe back into the d20 pool. I definitely like what I see in PF a lot more... I won't go into why right now, but despite having limited d20 experience I have lots of video game RPG experience and am an avid reader and casual writer of fantasy fiction so I know what I like/don't like.
I am still *very* new to d20 and to Pathfinder. I GM for my wife and buddies, but anyone who wasn't my good friends would probably have little tolerance for my capabilities with the rules as a GM. I'm a newb and they are even newbier than newbs. I've read a LOT of the PRD and SRD online, but because of the skillset of my player base, the only experience I've had actually playing and putting the game into practice at the table is GMing the Beginner Box. My players really can't handle the full rules, so I got that and introduce a few new rules a session from the PRD, but that will take an eternity.
I really do know a lot more rules from the full rules myself than Beginner Box, but I hesitate to purchase all the rules books or join PFS. I learn best by doing, not reading, so my present level of experience makes me very intimidated to play in a PFS organized game. I feel like I might be sitting there trying to figure out what all is happening and taking way too long to take actions, and making lots of honest mistakes.
I don't have any friends who are less casual...
First let me say Welcome. for some of us, like myself, I stared playing this game when i was in middle school, around sixth grade, around 12 years of age. When we first stared out neither I nor my friends had much of anything figured out but we had fun. We learned as we played, as we made mistakes, etc.
for me the game was a spring board for my curiosity. It encouraged me to dive into other subjects like history, (to learn about knights and castles etc), Mythology( to learn about dragons and hydra's etc) Statistics( to learn about how the dice worked, and through D&D i wanted to read more. so having grown up with the game, its sometimes hard to realize how dense and daunting the "game " can be to pick up and learn cold.I guess i would ask are you having fun and spending time with your friends? if the answer is yes, then great. If you enjoy the beginner box, and your friends are having fun, why worry, enjoy the game! Pathfinder Society Organized Play, can be an excellent way to get in touch with the "gamer" comunity...and to learn how to play, by playing and meeting new people.
I havn't played allot of the newer computer "role playing" games like skyrim that i am hearing about, but i have played WoW for a couple of years. part of the genius of a game like Wow, is that it allows millions of people partake in the same story and quests, with thier character.
Part of the genius of a role playing game like Pathfinder, is that it enables lots of people to tell their own stories using the common framework of the game.
If you will, a game like Paizo allows you to make your own races, classes, spells, and quests. This game allows you to write the story and make the instance so to speak.
one of the limitations of a computer role playing game, is that the computer more or less has to follow a script.....with a RPG like Pathifnder, you write your own script.
anyways enjoy!
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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nosig,
It's been my experience that last-slots for a convention are oftentimes harder than the rest of the convention. People are a little crispier, and if they've leveled their characters or bought items during the con, there might be several fresh abilities that they're less familiar with.
But mostly, it's the crispiness. (We play all day Saturday. We play the SPecial, which goes till 1 in the morning. We go to sleep in an unfamiliar bed. We get up in time to check out and eat breakfast. After all that, we try to be at our best in a PFS scenario, having fun and making sure the other players have fun, too.)
I look forward to playing with you at some future convention. Maybe not on Sunday.
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Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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On a good note - I've got her to agree to try her cleric again tonight (local game day, and most of the group will be friends that she knows well). In fact, she's thinking about taking her Stat Points for 4th and 8th level in DEX, which would mean her PC would "give birth" after making 8th (where she would loose her Dex penility. She said something like "How long does pregnacy in PF last? about 8 levels...).
Of course, she could get herself knocked up again...