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Basically, I'm trying to find out what would be the highest AC you would expect any player to get if they just where not going to outright break their character, so nothing build dependent and core rules.
Since I was trying to not think too hard about it, since thinking too hard would then end in min-maxing. I'm also trying not to include any "special occasion" ac items as well.
What I'm getting is about 46 AC if you just some guy in heavy armor. +5 Mithril Full plate, has a 12-13 dex and cats grace +4 item of some sort. A +5 heavy Mithril Tower shield. +5 ring of protection, +5 natural armor item. and the base +10
Dex +3, Armor +14, Shield +9, Deflection +5, Natural armor +5, +10 base.
So with class abilities and feats you could easily get that higher.
Now I know AC becomes worthless after a while due to save or die, touch attack spells, or spells and abilities that just don't even care about armor, but a character could get this around level 12-13 if we went by just wealth. Granted, you don't really have a good weapon, but you would be a great wall. So this is probably min-maxing still. Even so, this would be something you would expect somebody to do.
Going by the monster creation chart, the monster should have a bonus of around +22 at level 13 to a +30 at 20...
As a player, when I pulled off a high AC character, the DM would always then start throwing more a more contrive monsters that could hit through my armor. "GHOSTS EVERYWHERE, AMBUSHED BY NINJAs, MORE MAGES!" As a DM, I admit I have at times boosted monsters just so they could even hit the player to give them a sense of challenge, it was usually a "boss" character though, and that was after several attacks still missed the character. I had one story where one player character had been attacked 20 times by range attacks. (50 AC at level 7...) 3 of which actually landed, 2 of which was completely deflected by abilities like deflect arrows, and the final one being a crit from the boss, which massively damaged the character. The player, despite taking the brunt of the punish of the entire room by himself swore that I made his character worthless because I was just going to hit him anyway....
So AC, how high can someone get it without cheesing? How high should you except players to get it as a DM. How high should you get it as a player?
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First, define the terms cheesing and breaking so that we know how far we can go.
AC never becomes worthless. There are just as many save-or-lose effects and touch spells available at low levels as there are at high levels. Although I often find that having an AC of larger than 20 to 25 + your level is pretty much unnecessary.
Also, +1, KMA.
First, define the terms cheesing and breaking so that we know how far we can go.
Hmm, well since this is a broad term that changes from people to people, I might have some trouble myself. :p
Like in my example, I didn't use any of those wacky races that might get a +x bonus to y defense, and I tried to avoid actually using any classes, so just by wealth, which is something you should expect a player to have at that point, nothing exotic that require a very specific amount of requirements or blatantly exploiting a loop hole that most people would never even know about. Assuming that everyone is in a reasonable level of understanding how the game works.
For example, having a character who has 4 18s on dex, int, wisdom and charisma, and then become a ex-monk battle dancer duelist. for all the ability score AC.
Having a chain of feats from 5 different books that may never have even considered the other books even existing. However, something like Combat Expertise + fighting defensively + dodge + greater shield focus is fine.
Assuming a mage character does not walk around pre-buffed from head to toe all day simply by virtue of duration, "I've heard the spell permanency being used outside the intended spells somehow...", and would have to attempt to make those buffs in combat.
Assuming your character doesn't have 4 18s.
I'd say the highest non-cheese AC is the average of the rest of the group + 10. Past that point, the player is going for ridiculous and creatures will be vastly different over- or under-effective, depending on who is being targeted.
With this non-cheese Ac are you saying no bizarre races in the new books like the Ratkin?
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You can easily get to an AC of 53 at that level with only core material. Showing here:
Human Monk 20
Ability Scores: Str 18 (24); Dex 18 (24); Con 18 (24); Int 14; Wis 18 (24); Cha 10
The starting 1st level ability scores were Str 14 (+2 from human for at total of 16); Dex 14; Con 14; Int 14; Wis 14; and Cha 10: a 25-point buy. If you want a 20-point buy, drop Int to 12 and Cha to 8. Doesn't affect AC.
Inherent bonuses: +2 Str; +2 Dex; +3 Con; +2 Wis
Level bonuses: +2 Dex; +1 Con; +2 Wis
Hit Points: 243
Normal: +29/+24/+19 (2d10+12)
Flurry: +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17 (2d10+12)
Power Attack: -6 on attack rolls (2d10+24)
CMB: +34 (+36 Disarm; Grapple; Sunder; Trip)
CMD: 70 (72 vs. Disarm; Grapple; Sunder; Trip)
CMD w/Ki: 74 (76 vs. Disarm; Grapple; Sunder; Trip)
Initiative: +11
Speed: 90 feet
AC: 44 (36 touch; 36 flat-footed)
AC w/Barkskin: 49 (36 touch; 41 flat-footed)
AC w/Ki: 48 (40 touch; 40 flat-footed)
AC w/Barkskin & Ki: 53 (40 touch; 45 flat-footed)
Saves: +26/+26/+26
Feats: Blind-Fight; Combat Reflexes; Defensive Combat Training; Deflect Arrows; Dodge; Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike); Improved Disarm; Improved Grapple; Improved Initiative; Improved Sunder; Improved Trip; Improved Unarmed Strike; Medusa's Wrath; Mobility; Nimble Moves; Power Attack; Spring Attack; Stunning Fist (DC 27; 21/day); Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Skills: Acrobatics +32 (20 ranks); Climb +21 (5 ranks); Craft (Carpentry) +15 (10 ranks); Escape Artist +27 (10 ranks); Intimidate +18 (10 ranks); Knowledge (History) +17 (10 ranks); Knowledge (Religion) +17 (10 ranks); Perception +32 (20 ranks); Perform (Dance) +22 (15 ranks); Ride +17 (5 ranks); Sense Motive +32 (20 ranks); Stealth +32 (20 ranks); Swim +21 (5 ranks)
Magic Items: Amulet of Mighty Fists +5; Belt of Physical Perfection +6; Winged Boots; Bracers of Armor +8; Circlet of Persuasion; Cloak of Resistance +5; Gloves of Swimming and Climbing; Goggles of Night; Handy Haversack; Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6; Dusty Rose Ioun Stone; Pale Green Ioun Stone; 20 x Potion of Barkskin +5 (2 hours per potion); Ring of Freedom of Movement; Ring of Protection +5; Monk's Robe; Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone); Vest of Escape
On-hand Wealth: 10,550 gp
Inherent Bonuses (included in stats above): +2 Str; +2 Dex; +3 Con; +2 Wis
Everything allowed by the rules-as-written, and included in the CRD. It could go higher with APG, UC, UM, and other material, but why? And it could go higher if you were willing to sacrifice Str and Con to boost Dex and Wis.
Master Arminas
And then there are tactical AC benefits: dodge bonuses (say from fighting defensively, or dwarves against giants, or Mobility), cover (against people without some feats), insight and luck bonuses from various magic items...
It's not impossible to make yourself normally unhittable.
This is when the grapplers come out to play. Grab someone, pin him, coup de grace with a spearthrust through the eyehole of the helm...
The monk has the best overall defenses. However I think the magus can get high 60's low 70's if built right.
The monk has the best overall defenses. However I think the magus can get high 60's low 70's if built right.
Your kidding right? How are you figuring that?
The monk has the best overall defenses. However I think the magus can get high 60's low 70's if built right.Your kidding right? How are you figuring that?
The former or latter?
I think a better question is 'how high can you get your AC and still be relevant in damage output'?
Well, the monk I posted above is no slouch in the damage department: AC of 44-53, depending on whether or not barkskin is up and he spends a point of ki.
At the same time, when flurrying, and he attacks at +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17 for 2d10+12 damage per hit. He can power attack for -5 to hit and another +10 damage. Crits on a 19-20.
I think that is relevant for everything except an utterly tricked out concept like AM BARBARIAN.
Master Arminas
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Why not use Snake Style?
While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent targets you with a melee or ranged attack, you can spend an immediate action to make a Sense Motive check. You can use the result as your AC or touch AC against that attack.
...dump your gold into increasing your Sense Motive skill, it's cheaper than pursuing actual enhancement bonuses to armor/shields.
Level 10:
+10 Ranks in Sense Motive
+3 Class skill
+6 Skill Focus (sense motive)
+3 Wisdom Modifier
+2 Snake Style (feat)
+10 Competence bonus from magic item (Bonus squared x 100 gp = 10,000gp)
Total: +34 Sense Motive bonus @ level 10.
Prereq: Improved Unarmed Strike (feat), Snake Style (feat), 1 rank in Acrobatics & 10k gold.
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Why not use Snake Style?
While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent targets you with a melee or ranged attack, you can spend an immediate action to make a Sense Motive check. You can use the result as your AC or touch AC against that attack....dump your gold into increasing your Sense Motive skill, it's cheaper than pursuing actual enhancement bonuses to armor/shields.
Because you can only dodge one attack per round?
And it eats your immediate action, which in turn eats your swift action for your next turn. No ki points for bonus AC, speed, or attacks. No sir, don't care for it. Too situational.
Master Arminas
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Because you can only dodge one attack per round?The question was about reaching the highest AC, not sustaining it.
Well you're wrong in both parts then? Snake style isn't ac?
This is when the grapplers come out to play. Grab someone, pin him, coup de grace with a spearthrust through the eyehole of the helm...
How does any of that set up a CdG?
My Pal 8/Ranger 10 from shackled city game ended up with AC 43 normal and it climbed to 50 when smiting a favored enemy.
Abilities: Dex 16, Cha 20 (26) (with gauntlets of ogre [from before converting to PFRPG], headband of Mental Super 6) (20 point buy)
AC Is as follows: 10 +3 dex + 1 dodge [feat] + 14 armor [+5 glamered mithral full plate ] + 4 deflection [ring pro] + 1 insight [dusty rose ioun stone] +3 natural armor [amulet] + 7 shield [+4 spiked heavy mithral shield and Shield Focus feat]
She could also afford to fight defensively for another +3 AC [acrobatics] when needed and not sacrifice too much on hitting.
Her dex was maxed against the armor, as you can see she was short +1 on ring, +1 shield and +2 natural which could have helped.
Of course touch was lousy at 19.
If you did include class abilities and temporary modifiers. As a ranger she had Favored enemy +6 with evil outsiders and Favored Defense feat (+3 Dodge AC bonus). As a paladin she added cha bonus +8 deflection when smiting (didn't stack with ring) Taking her to AC 50 against some of the nastiest bosses in that game. She also had a unique Shackled City Item called the Serpents Eye which cast Foresight Spell 1/day giving +2 insight AC (didn't stack with ioun stone) for a 51 AC smiting a favored enemy.
I never sacrificed damage or other usefulness in order to reach that point.
During the end of the Shackled City she was near hittable and a terror dealing damage to their enemies as they were pretty much all evil outsiders.
We had a monk with 45 AC and a Fighter with 42 AC also, but I don't have their breakdowns.
This is when the grapplers come out to play. Grab someone, pin him, coup de grace with a spearthrust through the eyehole of the helm...How does any of that set up a CdG?
Grapple him. Pin him. Then someone else CdGs him.
Being pinned in no way allows CdG attempts.
They need to be
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.
The use of held in the opening sentence doesn't simply mean holding someone down.
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'Core' Fighter 20
AC 10 +14(full plate) +7(Dex) +7(shield, maybe with 'Dancing' property) +2(Shield Focus feats) +1(Dodge) +6(Expertise) +5(Amulet of Natural Armor) +5(Ring of Deflection) +1(Dusty rose prism) +5('Defending' weapon) = 63 (52 in full offense mode, w/o Expertise&Defending)
Potions and other wondrous items might boost it beyond that.
My only char that has gone 1 to 20 had 42 AC (TWF rogue).
All this shows is that CR 17-20 opponents with an attack bonus of around +30 are an utter joke.
Avenger, what is your attack bonus on that AC? lol You are at -11 shifting from attack to defense.
Master Arminas
Skinir magus can easily hit 68 without to much messing about, only neccessary for combatting AM builds. If you look at some of the bestiary's for monsters cr 18-22 they tend to have +3x to their primary attacks so optimal AC's tend to be around 48 ish for 75% miss on main attacks for combat creatures, but then you have to work on saves, cmd, touch, perception, initiative and damage or control to actually make your AC worth while.
Avenger, what is your attack bonus on that AC? lol You are at -11 shifting from attack to defense.
Master Arminas
This is pretty much the exact problem the warlord in our game has. We're level 11 and he's up at around 38 AC or so, but he's made a lot of sacrifices to his offensive output to get there. So in a lot combats he gets ignored by by enemies who instead chose to go after the much more dangerous paladin.
That still doesn't seem right. Combat expertise subtracts from BAB to add to AC. If you are using a defending sword to add to AC, it doesn't add to attack rolls or damage.
Assuming a 36 Str (+13 mod), weapon focus (+1), greater weapon focus (+1), weapons training (+4), his BAB should be +39. +40 if he has the ioun stone that adds an insight bonus to all attacks. I didn't add his weapon because that is going to AC. Using either combat expertise or power attack should make the BAB a +33. Using both would make it a +27.
That presumes that the fighter starts with a 20 Str, puts every level up in Strength, has a +6 Str belt, and has spent 137,500 gp on an appropriate manual for a +5 inherent bonus. And frankly, if his Strength is that high, how is he getting a +7 mod on Dexterity? What am I missing here?
Master Arminas
High AC, to me, is level + 20. Stays competitive until the very highest levels, where saving throws become more essential.
Other than that, you'll need to define, with great precision, what you consider cheese, or there is no chance anyone will get this 'right'.
So AC, how high can someone get it without cheesing? How high should you except players to get it as a DM. How high should you get it as a player?
That is a good question.
Except at the lowest levels, it really just boils down to how much you spend on magic items.
10th Level example:
Standard Character - 62,000gp.
+2 Full Plate 6000
+1 Composite (+5) longbow - 3000
+1 Shortsword - 2000
+1 Shock longsword - 8000
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 - 4,000
Belt of Physical might Str +2, Con +2, - 10000
Amulet of natural armor +2 - 8000
Cloak of resistance +2 - 4000
Heavy Shield +2 - 4000
Ring of Protection +2 - 8000
57K With 5,000 left over for cold iron and silver weapons, potions, and various other consumables.
AC=10+11(plate)+4(shield)+2(na)+2(resist)+1(dex)=30
I would say this is a good AC for level 10. Heavy armor, a shield, decent ring and amulet. It is very easy to bump it up by 3-4 points, but beyond that you start to make sacrifices, and not everyone wants heavy armor and shield. If you look at what a CR 10 monster has for attack bonus, the chart says +18/+13, so I think this seems about right.
The former or latter?The monk has the best overall defenses. However I think the magus can get high 60's low 70's if built right.Your kidding right? How are you figuring that?
The latter.
As a thought expirament I wanted to see what I could come up with:
1 Sorcerer
1 monk
8 fighter (free hand fighter)
10 duelist
with a 15 point buy, using only the +attributes from levels (no tomes or Wish spell)
Armor Class - 48 / 35 touch / 32 flat footed
Armor breakdown
Amulet of Natural Armor +5
Bracers of Armor +8
Ring of Protection +5
Dex bonous +17 (8dex +5int +4wis)
Dodge bonus +3 (+1 from dodge feat, +2 from free hand fighter)
Stats with Belt of Physical Perfection +6, Headband of Mental Superiority +6
Str - 14 (20)
Dex - 21 (27) (+4 from levels + 2 human bonus)
Con - 10 (16)
Int - 14 (20) (+1 from levels)
Wis - 12 (18)
Cha - 8 (14)
Additionally add shield spell for an additional +4 (you could remove the sorcerer level completely and have some slightly cheesy UMD action take place).
You can fight defensively with combat expertise in melee to have a -9 to hit, +8 to AC.
Boots of Speed to self haste for an additional +1 AC.
+5 Defending Rapier (also enchanted with flaming, shock, and frost, and thundering) which can give you an additional +5 armor.
66 armor class in total at least until the haste and shield expire in 10 rounds (shield could be re-cast).
Additonally you can not take an attack to parry your opponent.
With haste you have an attack array of +35/+35/+30/+25/+20
with damage of:
(1d6+23) +1d6fire+1d6cold+1d6elec
Crit on 15-20 (x2) + 1d8 Sonic (save DC 14 or become deaf) + Bleeding Crital Feat (2d6) + Duelist Class Crit
Apply the appropriate modifiers for hit and damage based on defensive abilities used.
This guy is not ignorable.
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Just off the top of my head and not really trying too hard: 75 AC
Race Dwarf/Class Fighter Tower Shield Specialist
*base* +10
*armor* = +21
+9 full plate
+1 regular Dex
+2 mithral
+4 armor training
+5 enhancement bonus
*shield* = +9
+4 Tower Shield
+5 enhancement bonus
*other gear* = +16
+5 deflection ring
+5 enhancement to natural armor amulet
+1 insight ioun stone
+5 defending weapon
*feats* = +19
+1 Natural Armor from Ironhide
+9 Improved Natural Armor x 9 (3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19)
+1 Dodge
+2 (Greater) Shield Focus
+6 Combat Expertise
Non build specific, I would go with celestial plate armor(+12 AC with a +6 max dex). It is actually 1 point better than mithril full plate +5, and gives you a higher touch AC.
Non build specific, I would go with celestial plate armor(+12 AC with a +6 max dex). It is actually 1 point better than mithril full plate +5, and gives you a higher touch AC.
Where did you find celestial plate armor?
The latter.The former or latter?The monk has the best overall defenses. However I think the magus can get high 60's low 70's if built right.Your kidding right? How are you figuring that?
I'm not going to go through the specific figures but I'll give you an idea. spells, items, prestige class duelist, feats, defender enchantment, etc. Perhaps I'll look back for some builds on how to specifically get high 60's later.
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Another for your consideration:
Elven Duelist with maxed out INT and DEX (at 20pt buy taken through 20th level)
Dodge
Crane Style
Elaborate Defense (Duelist ability)
Three ranks in acrobatics
Fighting Defensively (at only a -1 to hit penalty with the crane style tree maxed out).
This puts you at AC30 (plus you can parry one attack and deflect one attack with Duelist and Crane Style), and that's without *any* equipment. Throw on a headband of vast intelligence, belt of incredible dexterity, bracers of armor, amulet of natural armor, ioun stones, and you could get more than half that again. Also, this is without using up too many of your feats if you multiclass it right, so you've still got plenty of space for offensive feats. That leaves you with above a 55AC, without relying on spells, and without sacrificing much in the way of attack power. And like I said, you also get a potential parry each round and a deflect each round, which is worth almost as much as the AC itself.
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I'm not going to go through the specific figures but I'll give you an idea. spells, items, prestige class duelist, feats, defender enchantment, etc. Perhaps I'll look back for some builds on how to specifically get high 60's later.The latter.The former or latter?The monk has the best overall defenses. However I think the magus can get high 60's low 70's if built right.Your kidding right? How are you figuring that?
Duelist INT?AC bonus doesn't work with a Shield... Skirnir is a Magus that allows Shield use, Not exactly compatible,
I just started making a Magus/Duelist in Hero Labs for fun, to test your AC theory.For the record, I'm hardly a Min/Maxing theory-crafter. I'm traditionally the DM, so players showing with ACs in the 40,50 etc... Well, that usually makes me feel less than bad about filling the encounters with Infernal-Acid secreting Army Ant Swarms.
However, I was intrigued by this conversation, so I figured I'd give it a look.
-Uriel
I'm not going to go through the specific figures but I'll give you an idea. spells, items, prestige class duelist, feats, defender enchantment, etc. Perhaps I'll look back for some builds on how to specifically get high 60's later.The latter.The former or latter?The monk has the best overall defenses. However I think the magus can get high 60's low 70's if built right.Your kidding right? How are you figuring that?Duelist INT?AC bonus doesn't work with a Shield... Skirnir is a Magus that allows Shield use, Not exactly compatible,
I just started making a Magus/Duelist in Hero Labs for fun, to test your AC theory.For the record, I'm hardly a Min/Maxing theory-crafter. I'm traditionally the DM, so players showing with ACs in the 40,50 etc... Well, that usually makes me feel less than bad about filling the encounters with Infernal-Acid secreting Army Ant Swarms.
However, I was intrigued by this conversation, so I figured I'd give it a look.
-Uriel
The duelist prestige class and kensai archetype stack. I just remember someone posting a ridiculous build working off of that fact that that you basically add your int twice to your ac and have feats and buffing spells to get your ac to insane levels. The build might of had a couple other dips but I'm not quite sure. Even so just going defensive buffs kensai duelist will get you enough ac to basically dodge anything. Also your touch ac will be awesome.
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The duelist prestige class and kensai archetype stack. I just remember someone posting a ridiculous build working off of that fact that that you basically add your int twice to your ac and have feats and buffing spells to get your ac to insane levels. The build might of had a couple other dips but I'm not quite sure. Even so just going defensive buffs kensai duelist will get you enough ac to basically dodge anything. Also your touch ac will be awesome.
Are you sure that Duelist and Kensai Canny Defense abilities stack? Not that I doubt your expertise, but it just doesn't seem right given that not only is the name the same, but the kensai one even says it is "identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name". I guess the trick lies in the fact that it the duelist one says "per duelist class level" and this is "per kensai class level? If you're right and these do indeed stack, I know exactly what I'm taking as an additional level on the duelist I have in my home game!
I am in the pool that they do not stack.
Master Arminas
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Basically, I'm trying to find out what would be the highest AC you would expect any player to get if they just where not going to outright break their character, so nothing build dependent and core rules.
Synthesist can push 49 ac, naked, with default physical stats, without multiclassing or using feats.
Huge Serpentine
10 base
02 NA (starting)
16 NA (level)
10 NA (evolutions)
05 NA Size
-2 size (Huge)
04 Dex (23-4 = 19)
04 Shield (shielded meld, applies to saves)
_____
49
For a little cheese: add two levels of paladin and 1 level of oracle (lore). Grants +3ac +7 fort, +14 ref, +7 will. (assuming base charisma of 24).
That should put you at a 52ac, before gear. And I've not even touched monk.
A synthesist with a defensive build won't deal much damage, but not much is going to damage him.
Non build specific, I would go with celestial plate armor(+12 AC with a +6 max dex). It is actually 1 point better than mithril full plate +5, and gives you a higher touch AC.Where did you find celestial plate armor?
Celestial Plate is in Curse of the Crimson Throne.
Basically, I'm trying to find out what would be the highest AC you would expect any player to get if they just where not going to outright break their character, so nothing build dependent and core rules.
Synthesist can push 49 ac, naked, with default physical stats, without multiclassing or using feats.
** spoiler omitted **
For a little cheese: add two levels of paladin and 1 level of oracle (lore). Grants +3ac +7 fort, +14 ref, +7 will. (assuming base charisma of 24).
That should put you at a 52ac, before gear. And I've not even touched monk.
A synthesist with a defensive build won't deal much damage, but not much is going to damage him.
Yeah, that's why I don't allow Summoners in my game whatsoever. +33 from Natural Armor alone? Before magic? Not happening. Rocks fall, all summoners die.
Master Arminas