Hey guys, I've been running a homebrew 3.5/Pathfinder game that has been going over the course of 5 years and stretched three campaigns. The first two campaigns worked amazingly well and I never felt burned out for the the 3 years I ran them. In fact, those campaigns went over so well, that my players spread the word and praises for my GMing to the point that I've developed a waiting list for my tabletop games, and now have far more people interested in playing than I can accommodate at one time. I've never really had difficulty running my games in the past, and I realy do enjoy GMing. Even my current campaign was going great until recently.
My current campaign is only 2 sessions from ending (maybe three if the players really draw it out). We've been playing bi-weekly for jut over two years, and all the players have gone from level 1 to now level 16-17. The challenges have varied from encounter to encounter, story to story, and the players have had their fair share of losses along the way, but have managed to come out on top in the end. However, something seemed to change with them in a session a few months ago, and now it's to the point I don't even want to finish the campaign I'm so burned out of them.
The session where it started was when they decided to try and lay a trap for another adventuring party who they'd earned the ire of. Each of the 6 PCs were 14th level, and were going up against a witch, sorcerer and monk, also 14th level and nearly suffered a TPK from the encounter. It wasn't that I was metagaming my players or anything, as I had the enemy party's tactics written down ahead of time. It's that the PCs plan was all-around a very bad plan, poorly executed, and the gish characters (like the magus and paladin) were trying to play to the weaknesses of their classes. This situation created alot of rage on the part of my players, who were lost in solid fogs and being pelted with the witch's debuffs and sorcerer's blasts. The monk didn't even join into the fight until the 7th round of combat, when the fog was finally disabled and he could actually act.
Anyways, I ended that session very early, as the games wasn't progressing anymore, and had resorted to a scream fest of outraged players. People went home with hurt feelings, and I went back to the drawing board, feeling like I'd failed since the golden rule was broken that day - no one had fun with that session. But that's not really the problem. The problem is what came next. Since then, my players can't go a single combat without at least two of them jumping up and arguing about a ruling. The magus seems to have forgotten the difference between Standard and Full-Round actions, the rogue has forgotten how crit confirmations work, the paladin has forgotten how to figure his save DCs; the list goes on an on. The players have seemingly forgotten rules they've been playing with for two years, and have given up on planning ahead, using teamwork teamwork and don't seem to even try to have fun anymore. My players show up, and it seems as if as soon as one of them takes damage, or they miss an attack roll, or the battle setup doesn't allow them to open combat will a full attack, they devolve to pointing fingers, arguing and yelling.
I'm t the point that I don't even want to run anymore. I'm sick of my players, I'm sick of arguing, and I have 12 more people waiting to get in on a game. My current players were very much enjoying the story until that bad fight, but now they don't even RP amongst themselves. With only 2 sessions until the campaign is complete, is it even possible to salvage this game? Should I even continue running, just to finish the story and move onto the next one with a completely new set of players? What do you guys think? I'm very curious how other GMs would handle this situation.
I'm thinking you guys need a week or two of a break from the campaign. Sometimes campaigns like these get into a rut and break down. I'd suggest running a more lighthearted game. Gamma World is great for these kind of things. Or have a video game/board game night. Sometimes my group of friends and I like to unwind with a game of Tekken. of course, let your players know beforehand so they don't come to the area prepared for the DnD game and see everyone playing Rock Band instead.
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First, take a deep breath and relax.
Reading the post there are a few questions:
1) Were the players always bad at tactics –or- was this a fluke?
2) Is the argument with your rulings or is it between the players?
3) The tactics you had, did you take advantage of any party weaknesses that were there?
The players in the game are likely thrown for a loop with that last big combat.
I believe it is important to finish the game out, it will make for a better experience generally and in this case you may salvage the game and the players. To finish this, you may need to change some plans and remove the stress for the players.
There are a couple of things you could do to alleviate the stress:
1) Revive any dead players in an interesting Role-Playing Opportunity, such as the wandering holy man of the patron deity. Bringing the party together and give the idea the players are meant for something special. Use True Resurrection to not penalize the dead characters (You are nearing the end of the game)
2) Allow a grudge match with the other party, where the players have the obvious advantage and can make preparations. This will help them in regaining the confidence they may have lost.
3) Finish what you have planned for the campaign and take this as a chance to reflect on what you want from your games.
Hope this helps!
If it's really that bad, I would inform the players that the campaign is ending earlier than planned and see how they react. If they're indifferent about it, then you know it's time to move on. It seems weird that the fun got completely sucked out of the game just after one bad battle, though.
As a side note, I'm curious as to how old these players are who are acting this way. I'm always surprised when I find out people on this messageboard are all 30+ when some of them reply like they're still in middle school.
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Ah, yes, that. I hate that situation, and I've personally been the cause of it more than once.
First I'd advise you put the waiting list out of your mind for the terms of this decision. Assume that you may or may not ever play again, and with that firmly in a neutral place in your mind, you'll then be prepared to make your decision. But letting 'greener grass' influence your choice will probably lead to regrets.
Second I'd like to underscore the commitment you've made in hosting a game. You're aware of it, as anyone can plainly see, but make sure it factors in heavily.
Next I'd ask for more information about the nature of this 'rival' encounter. How long ago did that happen? Because the gap from level 14 to level 16 is usually pretty wide. If you've done several sessions of this since that day, I'd suggest you just ride it out. In fact, being only a few sessions from the end, I'd encourage you to go more lenient on your players' arguments, too. When they want to flex the rules to tell the story, point out how you're near the end and just allow it. Everyone ends the game with smiles, and you go on to new and better things.
Now, if that encounter was only a session or two ago, you could still fix things. A grudge match, like suggested above. But this will only make sense in context. Out of context it will be jarring and would take you further from your goal of finishing up this campaign.
If, at the end of all the suggestions here, you're still on the fence, I do have one more simple trick you can use:
Go through the motions of flipping a coin. "Heads we play, tails we quit". Flip it up, catch it, place it on the back of your hand, and STOP. Now ask yourself, in that moment before you look at the coin - what do you hope it says?
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Even the best players can "break down" when they face what seems to be a losing situation, turning perfectly normal people into rude, angry and self-centered, balls of hate.
In your case, it seems that the party's "chemistry" has gone sour.
If you feel attached to your group, then try to salvage the situation, otherwise you may want to call it in early.
That said, try to let your group know what you are feeling. TALK to them.
Don't start the next game until you have a good sit down and face to face discussion of what you are feeling. (Don't bother with the past, just let them know what you feel now.)
If everyone can't get over it, then its really time to end the campaign early. Hopeful, they can see that their behavior is less then acceptable and pull themselves together to end the campaign on a sweet note.
Thank you all for the advice. I think I will take a month or two off as I work on my next campaign. I think you guys are right and that's the best idea. If things don't change in the next session, then it's only 1 session left to finish the campaign, and that's not big deal. Again, thanks for the help.
First, take a deep breath and relax.
Reading the post there are a few questions:
1) Were the players always bad at tactics –or- was this a fluke?
2) Is the argument with your rulings or is it between the players?
3) The tactics you had, did you take advantage of any party weaknesses that were there?
1) Actually no, they weren't usually bad at tactics. They outsmarted me just about half the time, but up until that fight, their tactics and teamwork were solid enough to get them through. It really was a fluke, WAS. Since then, their tactics have almost completely dissolved.
2) The arguments are over lots of things. Rules like not allowing them a full attack on the same turn they've moved, or a swamp being considered difficult terrain, or firearms hitting touch AC within their first range increment. But they also argue with each other, like the wizard using rainbow pattern to subdue some enemies, but the fighter then precariously positioning himself for whirlwind attack, breaking thefascination effects - really, anything that makes an encounter not flawlessly easy.
3) The tactic I had were based on the NPCs perceptions of the PCs. They saw three guys in platemail, one caster wearing robes, and two light-armor fighters. Knowing they'd be out-numbered and out-meleed, the casters focused on using fogs to remove line of sight, and kept themselves flying to stay out of melee. That meant the NPC monk was out of the fight, but he could maneuver around the fog to take care of anyone who managed to get out of it (which none of the PCs did). It jut seemed like a pretty standard practice for NPCs of their level with those spells at their disposal. The PCs had an advantage in that the NPC were coming for them, and could have decided to fight virtually anywhere in the town and had about 6 hours to prepare. But, the PCs actually knew more about the NPCs than the NPCs did about them. But, they decided to fight the NPCs out in the open, and stay clumped up together. Really, it was all-around just really poor planning on their part.
The players in the game are likely thrown for a loop with that last big combat.
I believe it is important to finish the game out, it will make for a better experience generally and in this case you may salvage the game and the players. To finish this, you may need to change some plans and remove the stress for the players.There are a couple of things you could do to alleviate the stress:
1) Revive any dead players in an interesting Role-Playing Opportunity, such as the wandering holy man of the patron deity. Bringing the party together and give the idea the players are meant for something special. Use True Resurrection to not penalize the dead characters (You are nearing the end of the game)
2) Allow a grudge match with the other party, where the players have the obvious advantage and can make preparations. This will help them in regaining the confidence they may have lost.
3) Finish what you have planned for the campaign and take this as a chance to reflect on what you want from your games.Hope this helps!
Yeah, I am sure they got thrown for a loop. It really did knock them off their game, and they just haven't managed to recover, even 5 sessions later.
1) This is a god idea, and I should have done this, but the cleric in the party didn't go down, and he got to everyone right away. I think he had it the worst in that fight because he was trying really hard just to keep people from dying and was nearly ripping his own hair out in frustration with the other players. But, like a good team member, he brought them back to life nd kept them healed anyways.
2) No need for a grudge match, a couple of well placed attacks at the end of the fight ended with the NPCs being killed before they could realize the battle had turned in the PCs favor. But I'll remember this one for future games.
3) Oh I will. Thank you very much for the advice here. I have alot to think about for my next game.
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As an aside, if testimonials might help you, I've got two campaign-stories where things crashed and burned and we went on to play something else.
First was an Earthdawn game we played for about two years. The PCs had been escorting an exiled orcish princess through dangerous territory back to her home land. At the border, she told them they couldn't follow her inside, that the orcish people had to fend for themselves for a while.
This eventually led to the party taking on an entire orcish army that was set on removing them from their lands. "It doesn't matter if there's a thousand of them, Bob, they'll never hit us and we can kill ten or twenty each turn." They had so gloriously missed the point that I couldn't run the game any longer. All our work towards denouement and they wanted to murder the very people they had previously been laboring to free - just because the dice mechanics made it possible...
Second was an encounter during the old Dragon Mountain boxed set. Along the way to the mountain, the party set fire to a thieves guild building, which also happened to be an inn/brothel. It was an 'accident', and the guild was trying to kill them, but it did leave quite a mess and none of the village folk knew of the guild's existence.
The party later met a rival band of clerics and paladins who were seeking the same mountain. The band was also looking for a group of miscreants who, so the villagers told them, had set fire to most of their town and murdered several prominent figures. What was intended to make for an interesting 'talk your way out of THIS one' turned into a TPK. See, they figured that they were awesome enough to take them out and "didn't the accusatory tone".
In both situations I take the blame. If I was looking to railroad the parties above, I should have just done so. Laying out the railroad track, giving them a handcar, and expecting them to get my gist wasn't good form on my part. Arcing the story in such ways can be really satisfying when it works, but really, really catastrophic when it doesn't. Ideally, I would have went with the player's actions and found a way to make their new road arrive at the end of the story as well. But sometimes, and especially when the party thinks they're invincible, I just can't do it.
I can only say Ive been in that situation before. I gathered rounded the group and asked them why they are acting this way. If you dont have important game notes to the game where you jotted the NPC TATICS, show them what you had preped and tell them you werent metagaming. Talking about what happened helps. I did this the players realized that they made errors in tatics and I told them that if they continued to play like they didnt care about the game they enjoyed it was over. You have a stand bye list start anew. If you do start with a new group tell them what happened before and that you want them to have fun. Hope this helps.
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I would play a session with no combat.
Just skill checks, some fun RP moments, general friendly-NPC interaction.
This could give them an opportunity to get back into their characters and step back from any combat frustration.
Then I'd follow that up with a session which begins with tactical planning in which the PCs are invited to advise an NPC on how to prepare for a threat: give them a chance to think again about combat as a tactical situation in which they have to exploit opportunities and limit disadvantages.
Basically, teaching them what they already know to cut through the fog.
Once the campaign is done, have a breather and perhaps let someone else do some GMing, or play some Munchkin...
Hey, DM burn out is nothing to be ashamed of. Let the players know you need a break. Maybe do a rap up session to end it. I've found that players are very understanding of burn out. Once your refreshed then give it another go.
I ran a campaign that had a similar thing happen. Long term campaign with players that enjoyed playing together and the story I had created for them. Then they realized they weren't all powerful when an encounter went poorly for them. Party mechanics and cohesion just broke down. Team players became frustrated with uncaring players that became super selfish and roleplaying came to a standstill. We powered through and finished the final few sessions. We took a break and eventually started a new campaign. Immediately the same problems came up and I had to take a long hard look at what was causing the problem. Eventually we officially called it quits and then I decided to salvage the non problem players. They invited people to fill in the gaps and now we have an amazing game group. I run a pity game for the problem players but now it is glaringly apparent where the problem originated.
There are always differences of opinion and rules attorneys to work with. I have cerated a home brew that has lasted 3 years and we try to play once a week. Since I GM and do most of the work, I also get burned out and need a break. Luckilly for me one of the players is also running a campaign and we switch off GM'ing. My group has occasionally not got along. When that happens I email/talk to them on an individual basis and see what is going on with them. Sometimes they are not getting along with themselves and that spills out into rage in the game. They will tell you what they feel is going on and typically we can reach an agreement. Take a break for a couple of weeks if you need that long and re-group. Just agree to disagree and don't yell at each other. I would not want to waste 3 years and not complete the game...
Tell us how things went!