Clarification for Dragon Disciple requirement

[Dimitris Stavropoulos]

Hi there. I am creating a character concept and one of my thoughts was on a Magus (Skirnir archetype) that would evolve to a Dragon Disciple.

One of the main requirements for the DD is that the character has the ability to cast 1st level spells without preparing them (Arcane spells).

The Skirnir starts at 1st level with some Arcane spells and the Arcane Bond ability.

Arcane Bond allows the Magus to have an Arcane Bond Item shield. Per the bonded item rules, a bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the character has in their spellbookok and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. Therefore casting a 1st level spell without preparing it.

Am I misinterpreting some rule, or does this mean that the Skirnir joins Bards and Sorcerers as a class that can go Dragon Disciple just by taking 5 arcana points and draconic and nothing else?

[Maxximilius]

If I remember well, a bonded object cannot be used as a "casting without preparing spell" prequisite.

[Ice Titan]

If Arcane Bond granted this, then you would have seen a thread by now, or in some thread, wherein someone was extolling how a wizard would be a good dip to complete the prerequisites of this prestige class, seeing as they gain the Arcane Bond class feature too.

Short answer: It doesn't. Sorry.

[Dimitris Stavropoulos]

Thanks for the answers guys, but are there any particular rules references?

[uriel222]

The simplest reference? The DD prerequisite is: Ability to cast first level SPELLS without preparation. A bonded item only allows you to cast ONE.

[Blave]

uriel222 wrote:

The simplest reference? The DD prerequisite is: Ability to cast first level SPELLS without preparation. A bonded item only allows you to cast ONE.

Not a good reference. A fighter 4/bard 1 character with 11 charisma can cast only one spell and can easily become a DD.

A better explanation would be: The spontaneous cast is an ability of the bonded item, not an ability of the character. That's also why you can't cast a spell spontaneously if you lose the item. Hence, your character never had the ability to cast spontaneously himself.

[Corodix]

Blave wrote:

uriel222 wrote:

The simplest reference? The DD prerequisite is: Ability to cast first level SPELLS without preparation. A bonded item only allows you to cast ONE.

Not a good reference. A fighter 4/bard 1 character with 11 charisma can cast only one spell and can easily become a DD.

A better explanation would be: The spontaneous cast is an ability of the bonded item, not an ability of the character. That's also why you can't cast a spell spontaneously if you lose the item. Hence, your character never had the ability to cast spontaneously himself.

Would you be able to meet the prerequisite by taking the Preferred Spell feat and choosing a first level spell for it? The prerequisite does say SPELLS, so would taking Preferred Spell twice then do the trick since you could then cast two different first level spells without preparation?

[LazarX]

It's been heavily discussed in threads that predate the creation of the magus.

In short. The Arcane Bond is not intended to be a gateway to classes that have spontaneous casting as a prerequisite.

That said, none of the devs see any problem with such being allowed for a home game. It however doesn't cut the mustard for PFS.

So unless it's PFS, it's okay if your GM goes for it.

[ShadowcatX]

No. You can try and make arguments about RAW but we all know what spontaneously casts spells means, and the very definition is "not wizard, witch, or magus". A DM is going to look at you, laugh at your two wasted feats and still tell you you can't take the prc simply because s/he doesn't like rules exploits. If, however, you go talk to your DM and explain your character idea, s/he may be willing to work with you.

[Dimitris Stavropoulos]

Thanks Blave, thats a better interpration.

However, I read the wording claiming that the character has the ability to have a bonded item, and that he casts the spell using the bonded item.

Playing devil's advocate though, Isn't this the similar to the case of an item providing a character a bonus that allows for a pre-req to be met (e.g a +2 to dex to allow a dex req feat)?

[Dimitris Stavropoulos]

Thanks all for the responses. I think I am going to let the idea rest for the time being. I am still not convinced that there is a definition rule conflict, however I am not sure that it would fit thematically.

[Oterisk]

A little search-fu...

There. It has been discussed before.

One thing you can do is take one level of sorcerer, and then 4 levels of magus. Since DD extends spellcasting of an arcane class, it doesn't have to be the spontaneous one. Crossblooded is also good for blasting and I have heard of wizards taking one level of crossblooded sorcerer for that exact purpose. Or you can just talk your GM into it, if you can.