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So, let's start with the basis.
Monk unarmed strikes are "treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purposes of spells and effects."
Dragon Ferocity states "while using Dragon style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus."
Power attack allows "This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your strength modifier on damage rolls.
Herein lies the question. If, while using Dragon Ferocity, I Power Attack as a monk; do I get the 50% increase for Power attack since my unarmed strike is a natural weapon receiving 1-1/2 times my strength modifier?
Hmmm close, but my call would be no, here's why.
Say you have a 18 str monk that would normally deal 1d6+4 damage on his unarmed strike.
If it was a primary attack it would deal 1d6+6 right?
However the way dragon ferocity is worded there would leave me to believe you would be dealing 1d6+4(str)+2(dragon ferocity bonus), which is awfully similar but not quite there. If you where after that particular combination and your DM allows 3.5 I'd look up the feat Hammerfist (there is two versions, one is dwarf only and lets you full attack two handed with IUS)
By RAW, yes. RAI, YMMV.
I have to agree with Glutton. Notice the difference between the language from Dragon Style feat and Dragon Ferocity. I'd say you'd get the higher PA for the single attack from Dragon Style, but not from Ferocity.
On the flip side you DO get the additional damage from power attack on your first unarmed attack, because of dragon style. But I dont think dragon ferocity is meant to give it to you on all attacks.
By RAW, it is an emphatic "no."
Dragon Ferocity says, "while using Dragon style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus."
Your unarmed strike absolutely does not become a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your strength modifier on damage rolls.
For one, Dragon Ferocity adds a bonus to damage equal to half your Strength bonus. It does not alter the weapon's properties in ayway, it only increases damage. See, the key to the increased power attack thing is that the weapon itself needs to be the sort that adds 1-1/2 times your strength modifier on damage, but you're getting that 1/2 from a feat as a damage bonus.
That is absolutely, by RAW, a different thing.
Further, your unarmed strike never becomes a primary natural weapon regardless of what happens otherwise, which is also required by the Power Attack bonus damage clause.
I think you could make an RAI case, but I wouldn't buy that either--if they wanted Dragon Ferocity to increase power attack damage, they would have just said that it counted as a two-handed weapon for damage purposes or something like that. They chose not to do that, which leads me to believe they, in fact, might have been specifically attempted to prevent increased power attack damage.
Edit: I also don't believe that Dragon Style lets you get increased power attack damage on your first attack by RAW. A developer may have come by and cleared it up, but by the letter of the law, there is nothing that I see that should indicate the power attack damage increases.
It's kind of awesome that Dragon Ferocity stacks, though, so you get, effectively, x2 strength on that first swing.
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Edit: I also don't believe that Dragon Style lets you get increased power attack damage on your first attack by RAW. A developer may have come by and cleared it up, but by the letter of the law, there is nothing that I see that should indicate the power attack damage increases.
I have to disagree here. Unlike Dragon Ferocity, Dragon Style doesn't grant a bonus - it alters the normal STR-based damage mod for that attack. If you want to argue that it's something separate (and therefore irrelevant to Power Attack), then you'd also have to say that it gets added onto your normal STR bonus to damage.
I see, i did a little mistake.
But hit the FAQ button anyway.
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Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.
Are Unarmed Strikes affected by the bolded part?
The only type of attack they have is unarmed, and they do have multiple attacks per round. The monk's unarmed attacks have full strength bonus, so they are clearly not secondary natural attacks.
It would seem, until someone posts something that shows that they are secondary natural attacks that don't take the penalty to hit and don't use 1/2 Str mod to damage, that they are primary natural attacks.
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It would seem, until someone posts something that shows that they are secondary natural attacks that don't take the penalty to hit and don't use 1/2 Str mod to damage, that they are primary natural attacks.
Does it matter if they're considered primary? They still don't deal 1.5xSTR damage, which is a requirement for the Power Attack increase.
Does it matter if they're considered primary? They still don't deal 1.5xSTR damage, which is a requirement for the Power Attack increase.It would seem, until someone posts something that shows that they are secondary natural attacks that don't take the penalty to hit and don't use 1/2 Str mod to damage, that they are primary natural attacks.
I am neither convinced on or invested in that topic so I'm just gonna avoid it :)
Edit: I also don't believe that Dragon Style lets you get increased power attack damage on your first attack by RAW. A developer may have come by and cleared it up, but by the letter of the law, there is nothing that I see that should indicate the power attack damage increases.I have to disagree here. Unlike Dragon Ferocity, Dragon Style doesn't grant a bonus - it alters the normal STR-based damage mod for that attack. If you want to argue that it's something separate (and therefore irrelevant to Power Attack), then you'd also have to say that it gets added onto your normal STR bonus to damage.
It changes the Str-based damage mod for the attack, I agree. But it does not change the Str-based damage mod for the weapon. Power Attack's extra damage is based on the weapon, not on the attack.
The only type of attack they have is unarmed, and they do have multiple attacks per round. The monk's unarmed attacks have full strength bonus, so they are clearly not secondary natural attacks.
It would seem, until someone posts something that shows that they are secondary natural attacks that don't take the penalty to hit and don't use 1/2 Str mod to damage, that they are primary natural attacks.
That's a good point. I think it comes back to an editionless question that I've debated before (not in reference to Pathfinder, but still): do Monks have a single Unarmed Strike, or an effectively limitless number of Unarmed Strikes?
I don't think that changes anything, though, as far as the Power Attack question is concerned. It only removes one of my points. The feats do not change the weapon's damage modifier, so I don't believe Power Attack increases.
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Power Attack's extra damage is based on the weapon, not on the attack.
Incorrect. Power Attack explicitly states that if you make a two-handed swing with a one-handed weapon (an option which on its own alters nothing but the STR bonus to damage), you get Power Attack's increased damage.
By virtue of the sentence 2 before the bold one, and that they don't add strength and a half, I believe that they get an undefined but higher than 1 number of IUSs.
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Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon)...
What makes you think unarmed strikes are considered natural attacks at all? As far as I know they are their own category and if anything more closely related to manufactured weapon attacks.
Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon)...What makes you think unarmed strikes are considered natural attacks at all? As far as I know they are their own category and if anything more closely related to manufactured weapon attacks.
the monk ability that says they are (at the very least for the monk).
I am speaking within the context of the monk. I can't check to see if that's a general rule or not.
Context is important:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Power Attack's extra damage is based on the weapon, not on the attack.Incorrect. Power Attack explicitly states that if you make a two-handed swing with a one-handed weapon (an option which on its own alters nothing but the STR bonus to damage), you get Power Attack's increased damage.
Clarification:
Getting additional power attack damage by virtue of being a primary natural attack is based on the weapon, not on the attack.The conditions for increased Power Attack damage are:
1)A two-handed weapon. This does not apply--the feat does not make the attack two-handed.
2)A one handed weapon using two hands. This also does not apply.
3)A primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your strength modifier on damage rolls. This does not apply, either, as the natural weapon in question (i.e. the Monk's unarmed strike), does not add 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Dragon Style does not alter the monk's unarmed strikes, it alters a single attack per round made with the monk's unarmed strikes.
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I think this is FAQ worthy for a few reasons;
1. I believe that by RAW a Monk's unarmed strikes are treated as natural weapons for the purposed of spells and effects that enhance natural attacks.
2. Dragon Ferocity enhances the Monks natural weapons in such a way that they now receive 1.5 Strength modifier to damage.
3. Power Attack expressly states that the damage is increased by 50% if you are using a primary natural weapon that deals 1.5 strength mod on damage rolls.
Easy to presume that Dragon Ferocity enhances the Monk`s unarmed strikes (natural weapons) so that they receive 1.5x strength modifier to damage, thus they may qualify for the aditional damage from Power Attack.
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By virtue of the sentence 2 before the bold one, and that they don't add strength and a half, I believe that they get an undefined but higher than 1 number of IUSs.Not only that, but isn't there a feat that lets a monk divide by zero? ;)
If they're gnomes, they ask you to divide by zero (Bewildering Koan).
= = = =
Subject at hand: While the two feats are rather lazily worded, it seems pretty clear to me that Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity grant 1.5xSTR bonus to a primary attack, and so you have justification for claiming Power Attack 3:1.
Downsides: 1) most useful by STR-based monks, who are going to have lousy AC and maybe also puny fist dice (martial-artist/barbarian multiclasses); 2) you have stronger attacks, but miss more often with your Flurry iteratives.
IMO spending two feats for some reliable extra damage is basically on par for anything else in the game. (A monk with DS/DF gains a bigger increase in damage than a TWF fighter with WF/WS, but he's relatively -1 attack and lacks Weapon Training.)
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Its fairly trivial as it's only going to be damage on 1 attack per round that may be 4-5 damage at level 20 depending on the build.
You're confusing Dragon Ferocity with Dragon Style. Dragon Style only gives the bonus on 1 attack per round. Whereas Dragon Ferocity grants the bonus on all of your attacks.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style, Stunning Fist, Acrobatics 5 ranks.
Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.
Special: Taking this feat allows you to qualify for the Elemental Fist feat even if you do not meet that feat’s prerequisites. If you do not meet that feat’s prerequisites, you must choose one of the damage types that feat offers, and you can use only that damage type with your Elemental Fist attacks until you meet the feat’s normal prerequisites. A monk with this feat can use Elemental Fist as if he were a monk of the four winds.
The concession is that you are using your unarmed strikes with their miniscule threat range... Assuming you do get to use the 3:1 from Power Attack and 1.5 STR damage you still probably come up short in terms of DPR compared to a Monk flurrying with a Keen Temple sword 2-handed... I'd be interested to see the math if someone wants to do it... I'm too lazy to figure it out...
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1. I believe that by RAW a Monk's unarmed strikes are treated as natural weapons for the purposed of spells and effects that enhance natural attacks.
The exact rules text is:
"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
Neither Dragon Style nor Dragon Ferocity enhance or improve manufactured or natural weapons. They both very specifically enhance unarmed strikes and only unarmed strikes. So, this clause is totally irrelevant.
2. Dragon Ferocity enhances the Monks natural weapons in such a way that they now receive 1.5 Strength modifier to damage.
No, that is not true. Dragon Ferocity enhances Unarmed Strikes in such a way that they deal extra damage equal to half of your Strength bonus. That is not the same thing.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the monk in question has 18 Strength and deals 1d8 damage with his Unarmed strike. So, the damage of his unarmed strike would be:
1d8 (base) + 4 (Strength modifier)
With Dragon Ferocity, I know you think it would be:
1d8 (base) + 6 (Strength bonus)
But it is actually:
1d8 (base) + 4 (Strength bonus) + 2 (untyped bonus granted by Dragon Ferocity)
3. Power Attack expressly states that the damage is increased by 50% if you are using a primary natural weapon that deals 1.5 strength mod on damage rolls.
Correct.
Easy to presume that Dragon Ferocity enhances the Monk`s unarmed strikes (natural weapons) so that they receive 1.5x strength modifier to damage, thus they may qualify for the aditional damage from Power Attack.
It is easy to presume that, but it is incorrect.
First, Dragon Ferocity does not increase the Strength multiplier on Unarmed Strikes, it adds a bonus amount of damage equal to a number derived from your Strength bonus. That is different, as the feat is actually creating an untyped bonus; it is not a Strength bonus. Compare this to the Dragon Style feat, which does actually change the multiplier (though, you will see in my next point, Dragon Style still does not qualify you for increased Power Attack damage).
Secondly, while the Unarmed Strike is treated as a natural weapon for effects that enhance natural weapons, I could not find any reference whatsoever anywhere to suggest that it was, in fact, a natural weapon. After all, it has to actually be a natural weapon (as opposed to some other sort of weapon that just counts as natural for specific effects) for it to be a primary natural weapon.
Now, if it were a natural weapon, a Monk would be entitled to Iterative weapon attacks followed by an extra Unarmed Strike as a Natural Weapon attack. And I think we all know that doesn't happen.
So, the fact that Power Attack mentions it applies to natural weapons doesn't matter at all to this debate.
Unless using Feral Combat Training. Then you have a x1.5 strength primary natural attack due to dragon style.
Yes, but only if you actually have a primary natural attack--and well, if you already had one, you'd most likely qualify without Dragon Style.
"Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike."
Feral Combat Training does not alter your Unarmed Strike, it alters some other natural weapon to function like an Unarmed Strike.