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I'm preparing for playing a cavalier, and am running into many conflicting theories on how mounted combat works, from many esteemed but not actually official sources. Has there ever been an official clarification of the various rules? I haven't found one yet, hoping I'm just missing it. Maybe in a book I don't have?
The questions I'm really looking forward to getting answered are:
Basic charge attack - do the mount and rider BOTH get a single attack (with bonuses and penalties), or just one or the other? [I would lean to yes.]
You may have to make some special provisions if using a lance, which is a reach weapon and therefore must make its attack before most mounts are in range for their natural weapons.
If you order your mount to attack (see the Handle Animal skill) it can make one attack unless it has Pounce, then you need a DC 10 Ride check to be able to make your own attack.
If the mount doesn't attack, you simply end the mount's move and take your attack from the first square that's in range.
You get the penalty for charging also, and the bonus if you attack.
Ride By Attack - You have to charge in a straight line to the first possible square to attack from. For this feat, you have to continue your charge line, which will take you right into your target most, if not all of the time. Which rule 'bends' to let the feat work? [I would say the charger can attack from the first possible square that allows him to also continue his charge past the target.]
I don't know of any official response. You can continue your charge line through the creature's space as per RAW if you overrun and potentially trample it. If not doing that, I'd essentially agree that you can choose the charge path closest to the creature that allows you to move past it in a straight line.
Though not stated, I would also assume this negates the mount's charge attack unless it also has Ride-By, which leads to ...
Ride By Attack / Charge Through / Improved Overrun / Trample - who has to have these feats in order to ride over something in the way of a charge? The rider? The mount? Both? Whose CMB does the charging pair use? [It would make sense that the mount would be the one doing the overrunning, but special paladin/cavalier mounts excluded, none would have these feats.]
Ride-By Attack doesn't help your mount to attack, regardless of who has the feat, though it does negate the AoO on the mount for moving past the target. Your mount could take Spring Attack.
Ride-By Attack: rider, partly benefits the mount
Charge Through: mount
Improved Overrun: mount
Note that the mount needs Power Attack for these, though Large mounts should have no problem qualifying for it.
You're right that a non-companion warhorse is unlikely to have any of these feats. It just does an unmodified overrun. The rider can use Mounted Combat to try to negate the resulting attack of opportunity.
Trample: rider, benefits the mount
Overrun uses the mount's CMB. Trample uses the mount's attack bonus.
Along those lines, but not strictly a mounted combat clarification - why do Gendarme Cavaliers need to take Spring Attack? Does that insinuate that he could use such a tactic while mounted (i.e. move up, attack, move away)? Wouldn't that insinuate that it's the rider's feats that matter, not the mount's? Or is it just something to do when not mounted (and to suck up other feat slots to get the prerequisites)?
Spring Attack probably works while mounted and allows more freedom of movement than Ride-By Attack, though it allows an AoO on your mount. I don't know that it's particularly appropriate for super-specialised heavy lancer tactics. I'd have no problem with a house rule removing it from the list.
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I have a heavily mounted party, and pretty much everybody can move and full attack except for the two-weapon fighter. We're currently in an argument about whether he can use his ability ... Double Strike, Twin Strike? ... during a Charge.
The issue is what kind of action charging on a mount takes. Some members of the group believe that the mount uses the Charge action, and you receive benefits and penalties (+2 att, -2 AC, can only make one attack) but can otherwise still take a Full-Round Action. As such, Fighter-player thinks he can legally hit an opponent with two lances.
Other members believe that the rider and mount are both Charging as their Full-Round Action, and as such, is incompatible with him using a Standard action for Double Strike.
Ignoring game mechanics and just approaching it logically, it makes sense to me -- he charges in and strikes simultaneously with two weapons. But I am a little concerned about the game-effect of allowing another player to move in and get two double-damage attacks, in a party that already relies on Pounce, spellcasting, and single x3 damage lance strikes respectively.
To my knowledge, there haven't really been any clarifactions,
although I beleive that SKR for one has recognized the ambiguity of the current rules.
Definitely is Rules Revision Blog material, by my book...
(though the last attempt at that, re: Stealth/Perception, seems to have dropped off the radar mysteriously...)
Because of the wording of Ride by Attack, the rules for charging and the rules for determining which is the closest square, your only option is to Overrun the person you charged.
Because Overrurn was changed in D&D 3.5 from D&D 3.0, it borked the whole process for the duration of 3.5. Overrun was something you could do as you were charging another opponent an opponent in D&D 3.0. In Pathfinder, you still can't use it to get past someone in front of your charge target, due to the clear path rule of charging, but that only matters BEFORE you make the charge's Attack. Once you make the charge attack of ride by attack, you keep going, invoke overrun's "or as part of a charge," to start the overrun process.
Gendarme Cavaliers... Spring Attack... is it just something to do when not mounted
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I have a heavily mounted party, and pretty much everybody can move and full attack except for the two-weapon fighter. We're currently in an argument about whether he can use his ability ... Double Strike, Twin Strike? ... during a Charge.
He only gets one melee attack on a charge, whether mounted or on foot, unless he somehow obtains the Pounce ability. Also, see below.
If it helps (I think I know what system you're coming off) a two-weapon fighter uses the Full Attack action to do his stuff, which is a full-round action. Charge is a different full-round action.
The issue is what kind of action charging on a mount takes. Some members of the group believe that the mount uses the Charge action, and you receive benefits and penalties (+2 att, -2 AC, can only make one attack) but can otherwise still take a Full-Round Action. As such, Fighter-player thinks he can legally hit an opponent with two lances.
Other members believe that the rider and mount are both Charging as their Full-Round Action, and as such, is incompatible with him using a Standard action for Double Strike.
"Combat while Mounted", page 202 covers all this. If a mount moves more than 5 feet, its rider can only make one melee attack (he can take a move and a standard action, but whatever actions he takes can't give him more than one melee strike). This also applies to a charge.
If the mount charges, the rider also takes the AC penalty. If he attacks, he gets the charge bonus.
Ride By Attack - You have to charge in a straight line to the first possible square to attack from. For this feat, you have to continue your charge line, which will take you right into your target most, if not all of the time. Which rule 'bends' to let the feat work? [I would say the charger can attack from the first possible square that allows him to also continue his charge past the target.] Though not stated, I would also assume this negates the mount's charge attack unless it also has Ride-By, which leads to ...
One thing to remember, the first diagonal square of movement only costs 5-feet of movement. If your movement happened to line up with a straight line of squares, the square to the left and right of your ending space are considered to be of equal distance from your starting space as the center square.
Basically, if the closest square is 5 spaces away, any other square that is also 5 spaces away is a legal square for the charge.
Basically, if the closest square is 5 spaces away, any other square that is also 5 spaces away is a legal square for the charge.
Unfortunately if two or more spaces were 5 squares away, it is randomly determined which is closest. Like 3.5, you never get to choose which space you charge to. You'll find this in the rules right after the diagonal movement rules.
paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html Movement, Position, And Distance... Measuring Distance...
Closest Creature: When it's important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die.
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Basically, if the closest square is 5 spaces away, any other square that is also 5 spaces away is a legal square for the charge.Unfortunately if two or more spaces were 5 squares away, it is randomly determined which is closest. Like 3.5, you never get to choose which space you charge to. You'll find this in the rules right after the diagonal movement rules.
paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html Movement, Position, And Distance... Measuring Distance...
Closest Creature: When it's important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die.
Lame, that's a horrible rule.
In many games it appears in, a charge is a straight line right to the target, not to the most advantageous position. That’s part of charging. If where the PC or NPC end up is important, then the onus is on the character to double move.
In games without grids, a charter charging follows a straight line to the foe, very simple, no room for arguments.
Since in the grid system, squares are counted to determine distance, one could attempt to veer of to one side or the other because the first diagonal is only 5 feet of movement. This is not how charging operates. To make sure charging can not be taken advantage of, chance determines which is the closest square, not which square gives flanking to the fighter and rogue against the opponent.
I have a heavily mounted party, and pretty much everybody can move and full attack except for the two-weapon fighter. We're currently in an argument about whether he can use his ability ... Double Strike, Twin Strike? ... during a Charge.He only gets one melee attack on a charge, whether mounted or on foot, unless he somehow obtains the Pounce ability. Also, see below.
If it helps (I think I know what system you're coming off) a two-weapon fighter uses the Full Attack action to do his stuff, which is a full-round action. Charge is a different full-round action.
The issue is what kind of action charging on a mount takes. Some members of the group believe that the mount uses the Charge action, and you receive benefits and penalties (+2 att, -2 AC, can only make one attack) but can otherwise still take a Full-Round Action. As such, Fighter-player thinks he can legally hit an opponent with two lances.
Other members believe that the rider and mount are both Charging as their Full-Round Action, and as such, is incompatible with him using a Standard action for Double Strike.
"Combat while Mounted", page 202 covers all this. If a mount moves more than 5 feet, its rider can only make one melee attack (he can take a move and a standard action, but whatever actions he takes can't give him more than one melee strike). This also applies to a charge.
If the mount charges, the rider also takes the AC penalty. If he attacks, he gets the charge bonus.
Pounce allows you to make multiple attacks while charging; the argument is that Doublestrike is similar, in that it would count as the more-specific exception to the general charge rules. In case you are not familiar with it, Doublestrike is a Standard action.
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Pounce allows you to make multiple attacks while charging; the argument is that Doublestrike is similar, in that it would count as the more-specific exception to the general charge rules. In case you are not familiar with it, Doublestrike is a Standard action.
Thanks, found it with the correct name. Since Doublestrike is a standard action, it definitely can't be combined with a charge, which is a full-round action. I see nothing in the text of this ability to suggest that it makes an exception to either the charge or mounted combat rules.
Pounce allows you to make multiple attacks while charging; the argument is that Doublestrike is similar, in that it would count as the more-specific exception to the general charge rules. In case you are not familiar with it, Doublestrike is a Standard action.Thanks, found it with the correct name. Since Doublestrike is a standard action, it definitely can't be combined with a charge, which is a full-round action. I see nothing in the text of this ability to suggest that it makes an exception to either the charge or mounted combat rules.
Charge is an FRA, but earlier in this thread you seemed to think that while you were on a charging mount, you still had a Move and Standard action to allocate (with the normal Charge limitation of no more than one attack). Have I misinterpreted your original position, or has it changed?
It's from a while back, but Sean chimes in to explain charging on a mount a bit. It covers spring attack and ride-by attack and about what "straight line" means under his interpretation of the rules.
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Charge is an FRA, but earlier in this thread you seemed to think that while you were on a charging mount, you still had a Move and Standard action to allocate (with the normal Charge limitation of no more than one attack). Have I misinterpreted your original position, or has it changed?Pounce allows you to make multiple attacks while charging; the argument is that Doublestrike is similar, in that it would count as the more-specific exception to the general charge rules. In case you are not familiar with it, Doublestrike is a Standard action.Thanks, found it with the correct name. Since Doublestrike is a standard action, it definitely can't be combined with a charge, which is a full-round action. I see nothing in the text of this ability to suggest that it makes an exception to either the charge or mounted combat rules.
That is an excellent point. I wonder what the RAGELANCEPOUNCE crowd will think of the idea that when your mount charges, you don't charge, but merely take the Attack action with the specific benefits named in the rules? Maybe you can charge if you want to, since it seems you have the actions available.
Mounted combat still restricts you to a single melee attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet, which it must do in a charge. The justification for this as written only refers to not being able to take a Full Attack, but Doublestrike hadn't been published at that time and the rule is clear enough without the explanation.